Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 146 Location: Santa Monica
Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Thread Started on Mar 8, 2012, 4:15pm »
Metro Board will vote this month on a $299 million dollar contract for 78 new cars that will be used on Expo, Foothill, Crenshaw and the Blue Line. Also include options for 157 additional cars at $591 million
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,990 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #1 on Mar 8, 2012, 4:54pm »
This is really good news.
If delivered on time, the LRVs, costing $3.8 million a piece, will be received in July 2016. This means that the earliest Expo Phase 2 or Gold Line Foothill could open is in Fall 2016, after test-running the new vehicles.
Excerpt from the board motion:
"The SSC found Kinkisharyo's strengths to be in their past performance and experience, technical capability and project management. As the recommended awardee, Kinkisharyo ranked highest in all evaluation categories except price."
This means that Kinkisharyo LRVs are the best LRVs out of the three proposed (Kinkisharyo, Siemens, and CAF). They didn't use the low-bid assessment but the best-value assessment, which resulted in picking up the best company, despite their bids not being the lowest.
If delivered on time, the LRVs, costing $3.8 million a piece, will be received in July 2016. This means that the earliest Expo Phase 2 or Gold Line Foothill could open is in Fall 2016, after test-running the new vehicles.
Excerpt from the board motion:
"The SSC found Kinkisharyo's strengths to be in their past performance and experience, technical capability and project management. As the recommended awardee, Kinkisharyo ranked highest in all evaluation categories except price."
This means that Kinkisharyo LRVs are the best LRVs out of the three proposed (Kinkisharyo, Siemens, and CAF). They didn't use the low-bid assessment but the best-value assessment, which resulted in picking up the best company, despite their bids not being the lowest.
July 2016 is when the contract is to be completed for the 78 cars. They are expecting cars at a rate of 4 per month so they would start receiving them in late 2014. As long as they are on time, they should not preclude Phase II or the Gold Foothill Line from opening.
Now just need to actually get going on actually building Phase II. I almost think the Santa Monica portion is going to keep falling behind the rest of Phase II. Who knows, we could even be talking a couple of years from now about opening to Bundy (the Maintenance Facility is just west of the Bundy station) so that should work.
If delivered on time, the LRVs, costing $3.8 million a piece, will be received in July 2016. This means that the earliest Expo Phase 2 or Gold Line Foothill could open is in Fall 2016, after test-running the new vehicles.
Excerpt from the board motion:
"The SSC found Kinkisharyo's strengths to be in their past performance and experience, technical capability and project management. As the recommended awardee, Kinkisharyo ranked highest in all evaluation categories except price."
This means that Kinkisharyo LRVs are the best LRVs out of the three proposed (Kinkisharyo, Siemens, and CAF). They didn't use the low-bid assessment but the best-value assessment, which resulted in picking up the best company, despite their bids not being the lowest.
July 2016 is when the contract is to be completed for the 78 cars. They are expecting cars at a rate of 4 per month so they would start receiving them in late 2014. As long as they are on time, they should not preclude Phase II or the Gold Foothill Line from opening.
Now just need to actually get going on actually building Phase II. I almost think the Santa Monica portion is going to keep falling behind the rest of Phase II. Who knows, we could even be talking a couple of years from now about opening to Bundy (the Maintenance Facility is just west of the Bundy station) so that should work.
According to the board report, the company has never been late in the delivery of their rail car contracts. So they do have a good track record.
Background on Recommended Contractor The recommended firm, Kinkisharyo International, L.L.C., located in Westwood, MA, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Kinki Sharyo Company, Ltd. (KSJ), headquartered in Osaka, Japan. KSJ has been manufacturing rail transit vehicles since 1920. Kinkisharyo International has been manufacturing rail cars in the U.S. since 1984. Kinkisharyo International has been awarded 15 rail car contracts in the U.S. and has delivered 684 cars during that time span. Kinkisharyo International has never been late in the delivery of any of its rail car contracts. Their most recent work was to provide LRVs to the transit agencies in Phoenix, Dallas and Seattle.
Kinkisharyo International, LLC. Kinkisharyo has provided urban transit vehicles world-wide since 1984. Kinkisharyo International's most recent clients include Dallas Area Rapid Transit, Washington Sound Transit (Seattle), and Valley Metro Rail (Phoenix). Kinkisharyo International has the unique distinction of having delivered every U.S. transit vehicle on time.
The SSC found Kinkisharyo's strengths to be in their past performance and experience, technical capability and project management. As the recommended awardee, Kinkisharyo ranked highest in all evaluation categories except price. They also propose a U.S. Employment commitment that is within 2% of the highest offer for new U.S. job creation. Kinkisharyo International's Project Manager has extensive rail car experience in the U.S., having led projects in Seattle, Dallas and Boston. He has over twenty years of experience in the project management of light and heavy rail transit vehicles.
Metro Board will vote this month on a $299 million dollar contract for 78 new cars that will be used on Expo, Foothill, Crenshaw and the Blue Line. Also include options for 157 additional cars at $591 million
The contract would be with Kinkisharyo International LLC. They are the ones who built the cars in Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, San Jose, and Dallas.
I like the design of the trains. It is sort of a cross between the Breda Trains on the Gold Line and The trains on the Blue Line (Which will be retired after 2018 according to the board report:
On October 28, 2010, the Board authorized staff to issue a federally funded solicitation for a "Best Value" LRV procurement for additional vehicles as required for Measure R light rail projects including Exposition Phase 2, Foothill Phase 2B Extension, and Crenshaw lines, and for the eventual replacement of the Metro Blue Line fleet consisting of 69 LRVs that will have reached the end of their revenue service life by end of 2018.
Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 146 Location: Santa Monica
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #5 on Mar 8, 2012, 6:13pm »
Quick question:
These vehicles are also for the Expo phase 1 correct? They never purchased vehicles for the first phase and I believe that someone said that they would be purchased during this contract. Is this info still correct? If so the first vehicles would be put on the Expo line correct?
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,990 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #6 on Mar 8, 2012, 6:57pm »
I think so. I would think that the Expo Line would run the newest cars. They were originally planning to run the Bredas on the Expo Line but after they turned out to be lemons, they gave all of them to the Gold Line and canceled the contract. And they decided to borrow some of the old Siemens' and Nippon-Sharyos for the Expo Line. We may see these new cars first on the Expo Line, as early as in Expo Phase 1, if they start arriving in 2014 as masonite commented.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #7 on Mar 8, 2012, 9:05pm »
Nippons have served the blue line well. Well built cars that have survived the ghetto onslaught, and has served as the workhorse, and backbone of the LA system for more than 2 decades. They shall have an Honorable discharge in 2018. Atleast 2 should be fully restored to 1990 spec with original seats and paint scheme for historical purposes.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #8 on Mar 8, 2012, 9:16pm »
The renderings:
Awesome. Looks like a cross between Seattle's Central Link LRVs(Those are beautiful Low floor LRVs) and the Breda's. I hope these don't have the smaller, cramped interior of the Breda's.
Nippons have served the blue line well. Well built cars that have survived the ghetto onslaught, and has served as the workhorse, and backbone of the LA system for more than 2 decades. They shall have an Honorable discharge in 2018. Atleast 2 should be fully restored to 1990 spec with original seats and paint scheme for historical purposes.
Hear, hear. They should preserve 100 & 101 to opening day (7/14/90) specs, with the original paint, seats and those great blue "M Metro" logos. If MTA doesn't want to do it, maybe Orange Empire Railway Museum would take one (might be a problem with the voltage, the PE and LARy cars ran on 600 volts, and I think the Blue Line is 750? Guess they could adjust it, after all, it probably wouldn't have to get up to 55 mph even on the track that goes to downtown Perris
But 2018 for retirement? That's less than 30 years in service (cars 100-138 were built in 1989, 139-153 in 1990 (and of course 154-168 in 1994 as the initial equipment for the Green Line)). I guess LRVs have a lower lfe expectancy than heavy rail cars (generally 40 years, though the remaining R-32s in NYC will make it past 50).
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #10 on Mar 9, 2012, 7:06am »
Wonder what the numbering will be for these cars. Initially, they started in the 100s for the Nippon-Sharyos. Then the Red Line cars were in the 500s, so I figured it was 100-499 (or 500) for LRVs and 501 and up for heavy rail. The Siemens P2000s were in the 200s, so that followed the pattern (301 & 302 were protoype cars for automated operation, which never came to pass, so they were numbered differently). But then when the Bredas arrived, they were numbered 701-750, behind the heavy rail Bredas (maybe MTA is numbering by manufacturerer LOL). Currently, 303-500 are available in the "light rail sequence", which isn't enough for the entire order if all options are taken (78+157=235 cars). If they start at 751, they would end up at 985, so that may be the way they go.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,990 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #11 on Mar 9, 2012, 8:32am »
The new cars will have wider seats and more room for bicycles, which sounds great!
By the way, some people thought that Kinkisharyo is the same company as Nippon-Sharyo. They are two completely different companies and Kinkisharyo is much more qualified in building light-rail vehicles. In US, Nippon-Sharyo built light-rail vehicles only for the Blue Line -- the original batch of 54 in 1989 - 1990 and the new batch of 15 in 1994. They are nowadays more specialized in commuter-rail passenger cars.
It's great that they picked up the best light-rail-vehicle manufacturer this time, despite being more expensive. Best-value (combination of quality and price factors) rules! Breda contract, which was a lowest-bid contract, was a big mistake, and they ended up having the problematic Breda LRVs.
Nippons have served the blue line well. Well built cars that have survived the ghetto onslaught, and has served as the workhorse, and backbone of the LA system for more than 2 decades. They shall have an Honorable discharge in 2018. Atleast 2 should be fully restored to 1990 spec with original seats and paint scheme for historical purposes.
Hear, hear. They should preserve 100 & 101 to opening day (7/14/90) specs, with the original paint, seats and those great blue "M Metro" logos. If MTA doesn't want to do it, maybe Orange Empire Railway Museum would take one (might be a problem with the voltage, the PE and LARy cars ran on 600 volts, and I think the Blue Line is 750? Guess they could adjust it, after all, it probably wouldn't have to get up to 55 mph even on the track that goes to downtown Perris
But 2018 for retirement? That's less than 30 years in service (cars 100-138 were built in 1989, 139-153 in 1990 (and of course 154-168 in 1994 as the initial equipment for the Green Line)). I guess LRVs have a lower lfe expectancy than heavy rail cars (generally 40 years, though the remaining R-32s in NYC will make it past 50).
~30 is the average life for a rail-car, just like ~12 years is the average for a bus. NYC chose to keep the R-32s that long. They couldn't replace them with the new R160s because they would rust if they were to go to the Rockaways(Lines A and C, which the R32s run on). Those R32s are falling apart.
Since The this new order of LRVs will coincide near the end of the Nippons' service life, Metro figure they might as well exercise the option and the replace the Nippons with the new order. Otherwise, it would take to long to get a new contract and Metro would be stuck with cars ready to fall apart for another half decade or so.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #14 on Mar 10, 2012, 12:18am »
(see NOTE below) Regarding the possibility of a Metro Blue Line original car (100, 101?) going to Orange Empire: There are some mechanical considerations--since Metro cars are designed for high-platform loading, it would be necessary to have a platform, or at least a portable stairway for passenger access. It would have to be moveable to allow PE cars and main-line railroad cars and locomotives to pass. I'll have to leave it for the electrical engineers to figure out whether the Nippon-Sharyo's can run on 600 volts; San Francisco Muni and Boston run modern LRV's on 600. Spare parts: I don't know how high-tech the 100's are, but any acquisition should include plenty of control-system modules. Overhead: Some of OERM's overhead is pantograph-compatible, but some isn't. It might be necessary to tow the units from where there stored to usable wire. Needless to say, coupler adapters are a "must". NOTE: I am a long time member of OERM, but am NOT an official spokesperson. I'm merely stating some of the challenges that would arise should one or two of these LRV's be preserved. We have several years before this goes beyond the realm of idle discussion. Historic note: In the OERM narrow-gauge streetcar collection, we have LATL/LAMTA 3165, the LAST streetcar bought for service in LA before the light-rail era.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,990 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #15 on Mar 10, 2012, 3:15am »
I think the answer is yes, a Nippon Sharyo or two would be great in OERM and Metro owes it to them. They might try to sell the rest to a third-world country or for salvaging.
600 V DC instead of 750 V DC shouldn't cause much problem. Too much voltage would obviously damage the electrical systems and drive system of the LRV, but low voltage shouldn't stall it probably down to 300 - 400 V or so. In fact you don't always get 750 V -- the voltage will be less further away from TPSS due to resistive drop on the overhead power wires and it will even be smaller for higher current drains (such as more LRVs or LRVs using more power), as the voltage drop is resistance of the OCS wire, which is proportional to the length of the wire measured from the TPSS, multiplied by current. Unlike old electric trains and streetcars, which used DC motors, these trains run on DC-to-AC power inverters made by IGBT transistors and have asynchronous AC motors (induction motors). Back then they couldn't make inverters because they didn't have transistors and they had to use complicated and unreliable DC motors. Nowadays inverters are cheap to make using power transistors and AC motors are much simpler and more reliable than DC motors. Inverters then change the frequency of the AC voltage inputted to the motors according to the operator's speed-control lever and the train-speed sensors, and in this way the rotation speed of the motor is controlled according to the AC frequency, and a precise rotation speed can be obtained using a feedback system like in a car cruise-control system. In an asynchronous AC motor, the rotation speed is a function of the AC frequency and the torque output of the motor.
High-floor car is no problem. Most trains have high floors, such as the Pacific Electric blimps in OERM. All they need is some stepladder. After all, the floor height is only 3-1/4 ft from the top of rail.
These vehicles are also for the Expo phase 1 correct? They never purchased vehicles for the first phase and I believe that someone said that they would be purchased during this contract. Is this info still correct? If so the first vehicles would be put on the Expo line correct?
Nope. Phase I was always intended to have the P865's. See this summary from a few years ago.
But 2018 for retirement? That's less than 30 years in service (cars 100-138 were built in 1989, 139-153 in 1990 (and of course 154-168 in 1994 as the initial equipment for the Green Line)). I guess LRVs have a lower lfe expectancy than heavy rail cars (generally 40 years, though the remaining R-32s in NYC will make it past 50).
Hi transitfan!
IINM the plan was for the blue line P865's to get a mid-life overhaul and run for at least another 20 years. Metro had decided to do that in lieu of purchasing new cars for the blue line, but obviously that's changed. It could be that when the Breda option was cancelled that they no longer had enough cars to allow for the blue line cars to be overhauled. Or maybe they just decided that it wasn't worth it and I missed it.
These vehicles are also for the Expo phase 1 correct? They never purchased vehicles for the first phase and I believe that someone said that they would be purchased during this contract. Is this info still correct? If so the first vehicles would be put on the Expo line correct?
Nope. Phase I was always intended to have the P865's. See this summary from a few years ago.
Actually, part of the Phase 1 budget was for purchasing new LRVs. Then, the project went way over budget. When that happened, they moved the Phase 1 LRV purchase into the Phase 2 budget, making the Phase 2 budget bigger. They also eventually got rid of the Phase 1 LRV-storage facility to save even more money. Despite all that, Phase 1 is still over budget.
So, yes, they originally intended to buy brand-new LRVs for Phase 1. What you saw in Metro documents must be after the project went over budget and the Phase 1 LRV purchase was combined into the Phase 2 LRV purchase.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,597 Location: Carson
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #21 on Mar 10, 2012, 5:54pm »
Hopefully the new cars will incorporate some modern technologies like other systems are doing in their trains. For example there's no reason that it can't have a GPS that shows the location of the train on a line or system map. And have the time to each station as well. And maybe wifi. The Breda cars were outdated compared to what other agencies were receiving at the same time.
I think the answer is yes, a Nippon Sharyo or two would be great in OERM and Metro owes it to them. They might try to sell the rest to a third-world country or for salvaging.
I we want this to happen, there should be a campaign soon. I don't think it's a good idea to just hope that Metro comes up with the same idea. Also, it may be more realistic to expect that Metro might want to be paid. I've no idea how much it would cost, though.
I think the answer is yes, a Nippon Sharyo or two would be great in OERM and Metro owes it to them. They might try to sell the rest to a third-world country or for salvaging.
I we want this to happen, there should be a campaign soon. I don't think it's a good idea to just hope that Metro comes up with the same idea. Also, it may be more realistic to expect that Metro might want to be paid. I've no idea how much it would cost, though.
OERM has no money. They are run by volunteers and donations.
Hopefully the new cars will incorporate some modern technologies like other systems are doing in their trains. For example there's no reason that it can't have a GPS that shows the location of the train on a line or system map. And have the time to each station as well. And maybe wifi. The Breda cars were outdated compared to what other agencies were receiving at the same time.
One would think that the Kinkisharyo's will have all of these but then you never know and it wouldn't surprise otherwise.
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