Hopefully the new cars will incorporate some modern technologies like other systems are doing in their trains. For example there's no reason that it can't have a GPS that shows the location of the train on a line or system map. And have the time to each station as well. And maybe wifi. The Breda cars were outdated compared to what other agencies were receiving at the same time.
Wifi or GPS location module are relatively easy to add to the train. It's really up to Metro to make sure those items are in the RFP for new trains (or to retrofit them on existing trains).
A $299-million contract to purchase 78 new light rail vehicles from Kinkisharyo International, LLC, was approved Monday afternoon by the Metro Board of Directors on a 8 to 1 vote.
The approval is pending resolution of two protests filed with Metro by firms that did not win the bid as well as no negative responses from the Federal Transit Administration before the protests are resolved.
The contract also includes four options to buy another 157 light rail vehicles for $591 million for a total contract value of $890 million for 235 new rail cars. Metro staff had recommended Kinkisharyo after spending the past year evaluating bids. (Renderings of the new cars are above and after the jump).
Board Member Jose Huizar voted against the contract and Board Member Richard Katz abstained. Members Gloria Molina and Mark Ridley-Thomas were absent and Board Chair Antonio Villaraigosa could not participate in the discussion due to a conflict of interest.
Metro CEO Art Leahy opened the special Board meeting by saying that agency has fallen several years behind its procurement of new rail light rail vehicles and that the agency does not have enough vehicles at this time to operate the second phase of the Expo Line and the Gold Line Foothill Extension. Both projects are under construction and could be complete by 2015.
An effort to buy 100 new rail cars ended in late 2009 when a potential deal with another manufacturer fell apart.
Under the new contract with Kinkisharyo, 28 of the new rail cars are scheduled to be delivered by 2015 and a total of 62 by May 2016. If the four options are fulfilled, the delivery of the 235 total rail cars would be complete by Feb. 2020.
The new rail cars will also replace 69 aging vehicles currently in use on the Blue Line.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #28 on May 1, 2012, 5:18pm »
WiFi and GPS would be more important in suburban service (e.g. Metrolink) than in local, urban transport. (full disclosure: I'm an "old guy" who's not as tied into high tech devices as younger folks). I have a photo from several years ago showing a young man using a laptop computer on the San Jose light rail line, but on our Blue Line, the cars are often so crowded that there's scant opportunity to use one. And where stations are fairly close together, it's easy to get absorbed in computer activity and miss your stop. Regarding the original 1989 order of LA LRV's--I saw 101 in service on the Expo Line yesterday, and I think I've seen 100 in the last few months. It doesn't look like they'll become museum pieces any time soon.
Does anyone know what they will look like? What model did we choose to purchase?
There are prototype pictures on The Source. The full design of the LRVs will start now.
All Metro Rail LRVs have the same basic look same number and placement of windows for example, including the Nippon Sharyo, Siemens, Breda, and the new Kinki Sharyo LRVs.
Hopefully Kinki Sharyo LRVs will have the high quality of Nippon Sharyo and Siemens instead of the low quality of Breda. According to the selection process, they were the highest quality among those competed (including Siemens) and they likely should as a result.
And the promised delivery start of 2015 should help push the Expo Phase 2 and Foothill openings to earlier.
WiFi and GPS would be more important in suburban service (e.g. Metrolink) than in local, urban transport. (full disclosure: I'm an "old guy" who's not as tied into high tech devices as younger folks). I have a photo from several years ago showing a young man using a laptop computer on the San Jose light rail line, but on our Blue Line, the cars are often so crowded that there's scant opportunity to use one. And where stations are fairly close together, it's easy to get absorbed in computer activity and miss your stop.
All valid points. But in some cases, such as the 30min commute from Sierra Madre to Union station, wifi would be useful. And for those who will commute from Monrovia to US, that's an hour or more.
About a week ago was a tv news story saying that NYC subway got wifi installed on their trains. I'm curious if that increases ridership.
I'm also curious if the new KS cars will have cameras installed in the cabs. The operators will hate that.
WiFi and GPS would be more important in suburban service (e.g. Metrolink) than in local, urban transport. (full disclosure: I'm an "old guy" who's not as tied into high tech devices as younger folks). I have a photo from several years ago showing a young man using a laptop computer on the San Jose light rail line, but on our Blue Line, the cars are often so crowded that there's scant opportunity to use one. And where stations are fairly close together, it's easy to get absorbed in computer activity and miss your stop.
All valid points. But in some cases, such as the 30min commute from Sierra Madre to Union station, wifi would be useful. And for those who will commute from Monrovia to US, that's an hour or more.
About a week ago was a tv news story saying that NYC subway got wifi installed on their trains. I'm curious if that increases ridership.
I'm also curious if the new KS cars will have cameras installed in the cabs. The operators will hate that.
WiFi on public transit is pretty useless and expensive, most people have smartphones now or are close to adopting them. As far as costs are concerned, you'd have to outfit every train car with a modem & pay monthly for each one. So a 3 car train would have 3 modems for example. Also, the data connection would be slower than on your smartphone because you'd be sharing the connection with others.
All valid points. But in some cases, such as the 30min commute from Sierra Madre to Union station, wifi would be useful. And for those who will commute from Monrovia to US, that's an hour or more.
About a week ago was a tv news story saying that NYC subway got wifi installed on their trains. I'm curious if that increases ridership.
I'm also curious if the new KS cars will have cameras installed in the cabs. The operators will hate that.
WiFi on public transit is pretty useless and expensive, most people have smartphones now or are close to adopting them. As far as costs are concerned, you'd have to outfit every train car with a modem & pay monthly for each one. So a 3 car train would have 3 modems for example. Also, the data connection would be slower than on your smartphone because you'd be sharing the connection with others.
Hmmm...don't smartphones have an option of switching an available wifi signal instead of using their data plan minutes? (I don't know since I'm one of the few people still using a dumbphone.) Seems that would make wifi and attractive feature for trains.
It will be interesting to see how wifi works out for NYC subway.
All valid points. But in some cases, such as the 30min commute from Sierra Madre to Union station, wifi would be useful. And for those who will commute from Monrovia to US, that's an hour or more.
About a week ago was a tv news story saying that NYC subway got wifi installed on their trains. I'm curious if that increases ridership.
I'm also curious if the new KS cars will have cameras installed in the cabs. The operators will hate that.
WiFi on public transit is pretty useless and expensive, most people have smartphones now or are close to adopting them. As far as costs are concerned, you'd have to outfit every train car with a modem & pay monthly for each one. So a 3 car train would have 3 modems for example. Also, the data connection would be slower than on your smartphone because you'd be sharing the connection with others.
Except that smart phones won't have signal underground and how is it expensive? Aren't most systems installed for free and paid for by a bunch of advertising?
WiFi on public transit is pretty useless and expensive, most people have smartphones now or are close to adopting them. As far as costs are concerned, you'd have to outfit every train car with a modem & pay monthly for each one. So a 3 car train would have 3 modems for example. Also, the data connection would be slower than on your smartphone because you'd be sharing the connection with others.
Except that smart phones won't have signal underground and how is it expensive? Aren't most systems installed for free and paid for by a bunch of advertising?
I sent you a message btw, but too late now.
I believe there is some cost. It would be worth it my opinion to do it for the Red and Purple Lines. Completely unnecessary for the light rail lines though.
Except that smart phones won't have signal underground and how is it expensive? Aren't most systems installed for free and paid for by a bunch of advertising?
I sent you a message btw, but too late now.
I believe there is some cost. It would be worth it my opinion to do it for the Red and Purple Lines. Completely unnecessary for the light rail lines though.
Sorry, I didn't notice the message! There's a good chance I'll show my face this weekend for rail day though.
Anyway..
So while there is no cell signal underground currently Metro is playing with the idea, so we can assume that this is a short term problem.
I think before iPhone and Android became really popular you could have a business case for WiFi, but I feel confident that this market is pretty small now and in decline. The real money is in building cell infrastructure and then charging a wireless provider for usage rights. You'd get a stable revenue stream and provide better service to your customers because they wouldn't actively need to connect to this network, it'd be automatic/seamless assuming their carrier has usage rights.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #37 on May 7, 2012, 8:46pm »
My phone changes from mobile network to wifi automatically so I don't see how that is a problem. Wifi is essential for seamless Internet coverage. Mobile network equipment is much much much more expensive than wifi so it is impractical for Metro to invest in any such system. Also unlike other countries we have 2 completely differ mobile systems (gsm and CDMA) so Metro will have to spend twice as much money to outfit each train for both mobile network. It doesn't make any sense. Wifi is easy to implement and cheap to boot.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 381 Location: DOWNEY,CA.
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #38 on May 7, 2012, 10:13pm »
Quote:
I'm also curious if the new KS cars will have cameras installed in the cabs. The operators will hate that.
Some operators hate the cameras, but the majority will love the cameras because of the safety factors involved. The haters will have to "Behave" because they know they can't be "sneaky" anymore.
Some operators hate the cameras, but the majority will love the cameras because of the safety factors involved. The haters will have to "Behave" because they know they can't be "sneaky" anymore. [/quote]
Sorry, I don't believe operators will love the cameras
As a side note, if you look in the Breda cabs, you'll see a sticker warning the operators not to use electronic devices. Guess metro feels the operators need a reminder.
My phone changes from mobile network to wifi automatically so I don't see how that is a problem. Wifi is essential for seamless Internet coverage. Mobile network equipment is much much much more expensive than wifi so it is impractical for Metro to invest in any such system. Also unlike other countries we have 2 completely differ mobile systems (gsm and CDMA) so Metro will have to spend twice as much money to outfit each train for both mobile network. It doesn't make any sense. Wifi is easy to implement and cheap to boot.
For most devices you must choose a WiFi network, there are exceptions--for example an AT&T iPhone will automatically connect to an AT&T WiFi network but this is not at all normal for other devices.
I think you misunderstood, if you install cell service, there is no need to outfit trains. You simply install base station repeaters in the tunnel and charge for usage rights. You can even have a contract where let's say Verizon builds the network and gets a 10yr exclusive, Metro wouldn't pay a cent. A deal like this was done in Chicago with Alltel before being merged with Verizon.
For WiFi to be reliable you'd need to install it on each train & install a cell network in the tunnel. WiFi doesn't hand off from base stations very well, so localization would be key. On top of this Metro would have to pay monthly for the data fees.. So this is actually more expensive and has no avenue for revenue. It'd also require more day to day maintenance.
For most devices you must choose a WiFi network, there are exceptions--for example an AT&T iPhone will automatically connect to an AT&T WiFi network but this is not at all normal for other devices.
I think you misunderstood, if you install cell service, there is no need to outfit trains. You simply install base station repeaters in the tunnel and charge for usage rights. You can even have a contract where let's say Verizon builds the network and gets a 10yr exclusive, Metro wouldn't pay a cent. A deal like this was done in Chicago with Alltel before being merged with Verizon.
For WiFi to be reliable you'd need to install it on each train & install a cell network in the tunnel. WiFi doesn't hand off from base stations very well, so localization would be key. On top of this Metro would have to pay monthly for the data fees.. So this is actually more expensive and has no avenue for revenue. It'd also require more day to day maintenance.
In Europe most phone providers also set up wifi hotspots all around cities and transit hubs as well. You can pay for an hour or get a subscription for your laptop to use their network of hotspots, or some data plans will allow you to make use of wifi when it's within range if it's the right network. I've also seen this at LAX etc. A lot of the same companies operate both in Europe and North America, so you can have the benefit of using the same system when you travel. It usually costs the user money, but Metro could negotiate 15-30 minutes of free wifi per customer per day in order to have the privilege of installing their commercial mobile/wifi setup on the trains. Metro would have to be pretty stupid to have to pay for anything, though I don't rule out their screwing it up and offering a company money. I think I read a while back about Amtrak looking into making money by having one of these providers install wifi on their trains.
Some operators hate the cameras, but the majority will love the cameras because of the safety factors involved. The haters will have to "Behave" because they know they can't be "sneaky" anymore.
Sorry, I don't believe operators will love the cameras
As a side note, if you look in the Breda cabs, you'll see a sticker warning the operators not to use electronic devices. Guess metro feels the operators need a reminder. [/quote]
A good operator will love the camera because it will keep him on track, up to compliance, and he will do all his job requires him to do. Some bus operators don't like the cameras in their bus because they know they cannot be sneaky, like smoke with passengers on the bus, text, talk on the cell phone, or check their cells phones or surf the Internet. The good side of the cameras is that it catches everything and can save an operators job in an auto accident, or an incident that happens on his bus that day. When I was a Metro operator I remember an incident that happened on one of the lines. The bus was pulled out of service and the division manager pulled the video out of the bus and the operator was found to be the Innocent party. Human nature doesn't like cameras. But for this bus operator I welcome the on board camera I know it is there for my and the company's benefit.
Joined: Jan 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 194 Location: Los Angeles
Re: Metro readies contract for new light rail cars « Reply #44 on May 10, 2012, 10:39pm »
I'd bet that the overweight Bredas will have to run on the Gold Line until the Connector makes a Blue Line to Foothills and they have to transfer them all to the East LA-Santa Monica Line to keep from reinforcing the Blue Line bridges to Long Beach segment to accommodate the extra 6500lbs at a large cost. Foothills-Long Beach Line gets all new KinkiSharyos in 2016 with a few going to the Foothills gets a handful of new rail cars. Crenshaw-Green Line gets KinkiSharyo railcars added to its Siemens fleet
I'd bet that the overweight Bredas will have to run on the Gold Line until the Connector makes a Blue Line to Foothills and they have to transfer them all to the East LA-Santa Monica Line to keep from reinforcing the Blue Line bridges to Long Beach segment to accommodate the extra 6500lbs at a large cost. Foothills-Long Beach Line gets all new KinkiSharyos in 2016 with a few going to the Foothills gets a handful of new rail cars. Crenshaw-Green Line gets KinkiSharyo railcars added to its Siemens fleet
I personally have never heard that the Breda cars are unable to operate on the Blue Line because of their weight.
The new cars will have wider seats and more room for bicycles, which sounds great!
By the way, some people thought that Kinkisharyo is the same company as Nippon-Sharyo. They are two completely different companies and Kinkisharyo is much more qualified in building light-rail vehicles.
In Japanese, "Sharyo" means "railcar" or "rolling stock." "Nippon" means "Japan" of course and "Kinki" is the nickname of the Kansai region of Japan that includes Osaka. So Nippon-Sharyo just means "Japan Railcar Co." and Kinki Sharyo means "Kansai Railcar Co." basically.
The new cars will have wider seats and more room for bicycles, which sounds great!
By the way, some people thought that Kinkisharyo is the same company as Nippon-Sharyo. They are two completely different companies and Kinkisharyo is much more qualified in building light-rail vehicles.
In Japanese, "Sharyo" means "railcar" or "rolling stock." "Nippon" means "Japan" of course and "Kinki" is the nickname of the Kansai region of Japan that includes Osaka. So Nippon-Sharyo just means "Japan Railcar Co." and Kinki Sharyo means "Kansai Railcar Co." basically.
関西鉄道車両会社
Makes sense!
Very good description - "Kinki" was a mystery to me. Thanks much!
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Some operators hate the cameras, but the majority will love the cameras because of the safety factors involved. The haters will have to "Behave" because they know they can't be "sneaky" anymore. 
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