Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,597 Location: Carson
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #125 on Sept 11, 2011, 12:14pm »
According to this months TAP Update the turnstiles at four stations will be locked by October. Hollywood/Western, Vermont/Beverly, Wilshire/Normandie, and Wilshire/Western.
According to this months TAP Update the turnstiles at four stations will be locked by October. Hollywood/Western, Vermont/Beverly, Wilshire/Normandie, and Wilshire/Western.
Also it looks like Big Blue Bus has retrenched further from being willing to accept TAP.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #127 on May 12, 2012, 1:17pm »
Metro is apparently going cold turkey with the gate locking implementation. They are going to require everyone who uses Metro Rail and the Orange line to have a functioning TAP cards loaded with stored value or passes. The TVMs are also being modified to allow loading of a single $1.50 one way fare.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,597 Location: Carson
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #128 on May 12, 2012, 2:37pm »
Not exactly "cold turkey". It will still be phased and they want to have all of the red/purple line stations locked by November. No mention of the other lines. Also, it looks like the cost of the reusable TAP card will be reduced to $1 from $2.
The one thing that confuses me about TAP is transferring between train lines. Are you really supposed to TAP? Are riders with a pass on their TAP card that transfer from the purple line to the red line supposed to leave the platform, exit the station, TAP, and then return?!?
And if TAP is supposed to reduce the need for fare checkers, what's to stop people from riding two trains on one fare? They'll still need to check tickets either on trains or at transfer stations. Or maybe the thinking is that at least the fare evaders have probably paid something.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 2:37pm by bluelineshawn »
The one thing that confuses me about TAP is transferring between train lines. Are you really supposed to TAP? Are riders with a pass on their TAP card that transfer from the purple line to the red line supposed to leave the platform, exit the station, TAP, and then return?!?
And if TAP is supposed to reduce the need for fare checkers, what's to stop people from riding two trains on one fare? They'll still need to check tickets either on trains or at transfer stations. Or maybe the thinking is that at least the fare evaders have probably paid something.
Yes, you are supposed to TAP. They offer card reading pylons near the top of the stairs between the Blue/Expo lines and the Red line. There are similarly placed pylons at the Green/Blue line station. I also think I remember seeing them at Wilshire/Vermont.
Metro will need fare checkers, but probably not where the gates are locked on a single line and they can concentrate on transfer stations and unregulated stations. How they tell is, if you bought a single segment ticket at La Brea which you show the sheriff at say Mission Station, the sheriff will know you we not paying the fare for the Gold Line and probably the Red too. If you have a TAP Card, the Sheriff has readers which can tell what type of ticket/pass you have and the last time you tapped.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 5:33am by mattapoisett »
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,597 Location: Carson
TAP Progress « Reply #130 on May 13, 2012, 8:48am via the ProBoards Mobile App »
I always TAP between the blue and green, red/purple and gold and blue and red/purple because the TAP stations are visible and accessible. I don't know where they are for purple/red transfers. I don't make that transfer very often but I know that I have never tapped when doing do.
But if they really want everyone to TAP between the blue and red/purple they need more tap stations. At least half the people do not tap as they are hard to get to when crowded.
But this whole problem of having enough TAP pylons for transfers seems to point to the need for a better solution.
A TAP-in when you arrive at a station and TAP-out when you leave would make sense — even if the fare was still based on $1.50 for each individual ride. If a person TAPs at Universal City and doesn't TAP again until Long Beach Transit Mall, $3. Red-Blue-Green $1.50 x 3 = $4.50. The fare would max out with a $5 day pass. The TAP technology should be able to handle such a system.
A TAP-in when you arrive at a station and TAP-out when you leave would make sense — even if the fare was still based on $1.50 for each individual ride. If a person TAPs at Universal City and doesn't TAP again until Long Beach Transit Mall, $3. Red-Blue-Green $1.50 x 3 = $4.50. The fare would max out with a $5 day pass. The TAP technology should be able to handle such a system.
Buses and the rail system in Queensland, Australia work exactly this way (caveat: the fares are distance based) and there's a real incentive to "TAP" out: if you don't TAP upon exiting, the system assumes you've traveled the entire line and deducts accordingly.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #133 on May 14, 2012, 3:01pm »
TAP uses the same system and software as London's Oyster card so we know distance based fare and tap-out is not beyond the limitation of the system. London's rail system fare is distance based (by zone) but the buses are flat charge like LA (you tap in only, no need to tap out) but you get free transfers if you tap out of Tube and tap in to a bus within 45 minutes (or something like that). It's transparent and easy to understand.
We can convert Metro's rail (and bus way lines) to a zone system without much difficulty. Most of the zone changes also coincide with line changes right now so if we have free transfers within the sterile area.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #135 on May 15, 2012, 7:17pm »
I believe I read somewhere that LADOT was installing just the validators for TAP on their buses, like what AC Transit and VTA in San Jose have on their buses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tH5y2xeEhQ . They still intend on using their old fare-boxes for cash customers
But this whole problem of having enough TAP pylons for transfers seems to point to the need for a better solution.
A TAP-in when you arrive at a station and TAP-out when you leave would make sense — even if the fare was still based on $1.50 for each individual ride. If a person TAPs at Universal City and doesn't TAP again until Long Beach Transit Mall, $3. Red-Blue-Green $1.50 x 3 = $4.50. The fare would max out with a $5 day pass. The TAP technology should be able to handle such a system.
You TAP between the red and purple lines?!? How do you do that? You go back to the mezzanine, exit the turnstiles and return?
Steve Hymon doesn't even know and is replying in the turnstile locking thread on the source as to the correct procedure. So far he says that he thinks that you have to TAP between all rail lines except red/purple.
As far as Steve Hymon, he said that he was asked if Metro would go to distance based fares and lower fares for short trips and he doesn't think that fares will ever be lowered. He stops short of saying that the distance based part won't happen, and in fact says that Metro will likely look at it in a few years.
I seem to recall one of the LACMTA board members mentioning distance based fares several years ago when talking about the turnstiles and I got the impression that was likely where they wanted to head at some point.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #138 on May 27, 2012, 9:14pm »
Are you supposed to TAP if you have a day/week/monthly pass? I understand you must tap once to activate it, but once you activated it, tapping is superfluous. Actually, what I really want to know is if you get a ticket for not tapping?
Are you supposed to TAP if you have a day/week/monthly pass? I understand you must tap once to activate it, but once you activated it, tapping is superfluous. Actually, what I really want to know is if you get a ticket for not tapping?
Yes you do need to TAP. Once the turnstiles are locked, your TAPs will open them. And if you ride a bus, the driver has no way of knowing you tapped it previously, duh. Dunno if you get a ticket (you will if you pass is invalid) but you'd get a warning. Eventually people's TAPs equate into ridership figures.
Joined: Jun 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 413 Location: Silverlake
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #140 on May 28, 2012, 7:15pm »
I can't seem to find the place to "tap" when you are transferring from the blue/expo line to he red line, does none know? The ones upstars say "blue line" on them...maybe it makes no difference?
I also noticed that with the tap system, you have no idea if you can stop along a line, say to grab a coffee, and then come back on the same route going the same direction. Do you need to tap again?
I can't seem to find the place to "tap" when you are transferring from the blue/expo line to he red line, does none know? The ones upstars say "blue line" on them...maybe it makes no difference?
I also noticed that with the tap system, you have no idea if you can stop along a line, say to grab a coffee, and then come back on the same route going the same direction. Do you need to tap again?
Thanks
It's by the stairs, you always were required to TAP/buy a new ticket if you entered/exited
Are you supposed to TAP if you have a day/week/monthly pass? I understand you must tap once to activate it, but once you activated it, tapping is superfluous. Actually, what I really want to know is if you get a ticket for not tapping?
Yes you do need to TAP. Once the turnstiles are locked, your TAPs will open them. And if you ride a bus, the driver has no way of knowing you tapped it previously, duh. Dunno if you get a ticket (you will if you pass is invalid) but you'd get a warning. Eventually people's TAPs equate into ridership figures.
I'd say that it's more that you're supposed to TAP rather than that you "need" to. I say that only because if you forget to TAP and have a day pass there is no penalty and afaik you can't even be ticketed for fare evasion since you paid your fare.
But one basic thing that I didn't know for a long time was that after buying a day pass you have to TAP. I always figured that when you TAP the second time on the TVM that would activate the day pass, but it doesn't. It's probably not an issue at most stations, but at the station that I usually use (Willow), the TVM's are actually past the TAP pylons and you have to backtrack to TAP.
I can't seem to find the place to "tap" when you are transferring from the blue/expo line to he red line, does none know? The ones upstars say "blue line" on them...maybe it makes no difference?
I also noticed that with the tap system, you have no idea if you can stop along a line, say to grab a coffee, and then come back on the same route going the same direction. Do you need to tap again?
Thanks
It's by the stairs, you always were required to TAP/buy a new ticket if you entered/exited
Yeah, that's there. The problem is having to tap between Red and Purple; there's no provision to do that whatsoever.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #144 on May 29, 2012, 5:43pm »
On the subject of tapping between Red and Purple lines, Steve Hymon mention on The Source that you do not have to tap between the different segments of the Orange Line when the Chatsworth extension opens (e.g. traveling from Chatsworth to Warner Center during midday). I wonder if the same is true of Red and Purple. And will it be true of the whole system the Downtown Regional Connector creates?
Yes you do need to TAP. Once the turnstiles are locked, your TAPs will open them. And if you ride a bus, the driver has no way of knowing you tapped it previously, duh. Dunno if you get a ticket (you will if you pass is invalid) but you'd get a warning. Eventually people's TAPs equate into ridership figures.
Clearly, when the fare gates are locked, you will tap to gain entrance. And the bus is an obvious scenario.
What I am asking is that if you do not tap, possibly because you are not riding a bus and entering a station without fare gates, will you get a ticket?
I don't know how ridership figures come into play as far as the rider is concerned. The rider does not work for Metro and has no responsibility to count riders or be counted. This is why ticket sales and other passive counting systems do the job of counting riders.
I also do not like that TAP saves your trip history. I would be very uncomfortable using the service.
Anyway, we all know what the answers should be to these questions, but we also want to avoid the inefficiencies of the giant bureaucracy.
On the subject of tapping between Red and Purple lines, Steve Hymon mention on The Source that you do not have to tap between the different segments of the Orange Line when the Chatsworth extension opens (e.g. traveling from Chatsworth to Warner Center during midday). I wonder if the same is true of Red and Purple. And will it be true of the whole system the Downtown Regional Connector creates?
Yes you do need to TAP. Once the turnstiles are locked, your TAPs will open them. And if you ride a bus, the driver has no way of knowing you tapped it previously, duh. Dunno if you get a ticket (you will if you pass is invalid) but you'd get a warning. Eventually people's TAPs equate into ridership figures.
Clearly, when the fare gates are locked, you will tap to gain entrance. And the bus is an obvious scenario.
What I am asking is that if you do not tap, possibly because you are not riding a bus and entering a station without fare gates, will you get a ticket?
I don't know how ridership figures come into play as far as the rider is concerned. The rider does not work for Metro and has no responsibility to count riders or be counted. This is why ticket sales and other passive counting systems do the job of counting riders.
I also do not like that TAP saves your trip history. I would be very uncomfortable using the service.
Anyway, we all know what the answers should be to these questions, but we also want to avoid the inefficiencies of the giant bureaucracy.
From a planners point of view... I want you as the customer to TAP everywhere, really. Because right now the biggest hole in our data sets are travel patterns, sure I can tell you how many people are boarding and alighting, but to be honest.. this data is somewhat useless. Why? Because the data currently forces us to infer trip patterns rather than to actually know them, granted it's not terrible -- but it's like going from using Google Maps to plan complex transit trips to using several bus schedules. Data is not something you need to be afraid of, frankly there are too many of you for me to care where you as an individual are going, I want to know where groups of people are going and when -- but to me those people can be just a bunch of numbers on the screen.
I can't stress this enough, the better data we have, the better decisions we can make. It's in everyone's interest for planners to have good data.
For the Red/Purple line TAP issue, it doesn't really make sense to try and TAP between the two unless you're at Wilshire/Vermont, but even then it's no big deal. What really matters is when the lines split, those are hoardings for that line. Metro currently counts the shared segment as "heavy rail" in its internal reports, and then also has a split count for the lines in the shared and unshared segment as well.
On the subject of tapping between Red and Purple lines, Steve Hymon mention on The Source that you do not have to tap between the different segments of the Orange Line when the Chatsworth extension opens (e.g. traveling from Chatsworth to Warner Center during midday). I wonder if the same is true of Red and Purple. And will it be true of the whole system the Downtown Regional Connector creates?
Clearly, when the fare gates are locked, you will tap to gain entrance. And the bus is an obvious scenario.
What I am asking is that if you do not tap, possibly because you are not riding a bus and entering a station without fare gates, will you get a ticket?
I don't know how ridership figures come into play as far as the rider is concerned. The rider does not work for Metro and has no responsibility to count riders or be counted. This is why ticket sales and other passive counting systems do the job of counting riders.
I also do not like that TAP saves your trip history. I would be very uncomfortable using the service.
Anyway, we all know what the answers should be to these questions, but we also want to avoid the inefficiencies of the giant bureaucracy.
From a planners point of view... I want you as the customer to TAP everywhere, really. Because right now the biggest hole in our data sets are travel patterns, sure I can tell you how many people are boarding and alighting, but to be honest.. this data is somewhat useless. Why? Because the data currently forces us to infer trip patterns rather than to actually know them, granted it's not terrible -- but it's like going from using Google Maps to plan complex transit trips to using several bus schedules. Data is not something you need to be afraid of, frankly there are too many of you for me to care where you as an individual are going, I want to know where groups of people are going and when -- but to me those people can be just a bunch of numbers on the screen.
I can't stress this enough, the better data we have, the better decisions we can make. It's in everyone's interest for planners to have good data.
For the Red/Purple line TAP issue, it doesn't really make sense to try and TAP between the two unless you're at Wilshire/Vermont, but even then it's no big deal. What really matters is when the lines split, those are hoardings for that line. Metro currently counts the shared segment as "heavy rail" in its internal reports, and then also has a split count for the lines in the shared and unshared segment as well.
On the Paris tramways, they also have a "TAP" style system. In the metro and RER, you almost always have to tap to get the gate to open. You have to tap to exit about half the time. There are sensors just inside the doorways of the trams, and there is clear signage indicating that you should tap even if you have an unlimited pass. Some of the signs further say that it is important to tap because they need to collect ridership numbers. If Metro has good ridership numbers, they can better plan service levels, and can make a much better case to taxpayers and the federal government to maintain existing levels of funding, and to pay for extensions to the system.
Spokker, you may be a customer, but you are a subsidized customer. Regardless of this fact, when you make a contract with a service provider, governmental or private, you take on responsibilities in addition to receiving a service. In this case, you are required to pay your fare, tap your card, not eat on the trains, follow the instructions of Metro employees, etc.
Ieko, the data in passenger counts, etc., though available in a table, is as useful as Google transit to someone with data mining expertise since it's in a convenient computerized format. One famous example of the success of data mining is realizing that lots of people were buying beer and diapers at the same time. The store that discovered this from their sales records arranged their shelves to make it easier to buy both and increased sales. Years later, Netflix, Amazon, and pretty much all other retailers use these techniques to organize stores and make recommendations. Having aggregate statistics that large numbers of people are making certain kinds of trips (ideally starting and ending points) would be hugely useful when planning services and effectively informing the public about these services. Knowing if these patterns are changing would also be very useful.
From a planners point of view... I want you as the customer to TAP everywhere, really. Because right now the biggest hole in our data sets are travel patterns, sure I can tell you how many people are boarding and alighting, but to be honest.. this data is somewhat useless. Why? Because the data currently forces us to infer trip patterns rather than to actually know them, granted it's not terrible -- but it's like going from using Google Maps to plan complex transit trips to using several bus schedules. Data is not something you need to be afraid of, frankly there are too many of you for me to care where you as an individual are going, I want to know where groups of people are going and when -- but to me those people can be just a bunch of numbers on the screen.
I can't stress this enough, the better data we have, the better decisions we can make. It's in everyone's interest for planners to have good data.
Similarly, I've never understood why Metro, the County or the City of Los Angeles has never (to the best of my knowledge) undertaken a survey of businesses to find out where their employees who drive to work are driving from. While it wouldn't provide route information (although probabilities could be inferred), it would certainly yield valuable information about where mass transit (or roadway improvements) would be most effective.
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #148 on May 30, 2012, 12:22pm »
You won't get good data on travel patterns because users are not required to tap out. The sensors that are at the doors of trains are already sufficient.
Spokker, you may be a customer, but you are a subsidized customer.
Subsidized or not, I can still choose not to use the service if I am not happy with its policies. I am happy to pay my fare, not eat on the train, but I am not happy about tapping and fare gates. I do not want to be tracked throughout the system. I do not want my whereabouts saved to a server somewhere. I opt out of online tracking where I am able and I will opt out of TAP tracking by not using the service.
If the BRU really cared about riders, they would be using some of that environmental justice crap to protect the privacy of public transit users. At the very least, the data should be anonymized where it is not and strict laws should require a warrant for police to pull any information off a TAP card or TAP servers. I don't know and cannot find the answers to these issues. Until they are resolved, I will not be using the service.
But what I am most angry about with TAP is the $1-$2 charge riders must pay for a card that does not go to improved service, but goes to Cubic to make these stupid cards that add zero-value. It might even be rent seeking in some respects. What Cubic did was manipulate the political environment of public transit, not to create new wealth, growth or opportunities, but to extract wealth that has already been created (taxpayer funding and card fees). TAP (not much more useful than paper tickets and passes, and adds a whole host of problems), fare gates (cost more than they will "save") and Cubic are simply parasites on the Metro system.
Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Princeton, NJ
Re: TAP Progress « Reply #149 on May 30, 2012, 3:00pm »
Spokker, remaining anonymous is easy. Just only ever buy and load up your TAP card with cash. Don't register it online. With no money trail, theres no info about you. You are a just a card. Carry a double in case a cop ever tries to confiscate your TAP. No need to be so paranoid. Also, if police can do that without a warrant then we have far more serious problems than just TAP.
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