Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #875 on Mar 22, 2010, 9:14pm »
Indeed it looks like Farmdale approval will not add additional delays to the Phase 1 opening.
The original stop-and-go option proposed by Expo was during school rush hour only. This was defeated using the argument that people will think trains will always stop, making them more dangerous when they are going 55 MPH.
Then Expo proposed 24-hour stop-and-go as well as the station option to Fix Expo long time ago, early in the process. But Fix Expo refused to accept anything other than an underground option. But eventually no one cared about Fix Expo anymore when LAUSD accepted the station option.
Obviously, the station option is by far the best for the neighborhood, despite what Fix Expo claimed to be best for the neighborhood, as it will allow Dorsey students and locals very easy access to the line.
Given the circumstances this is also best for Expo, as it's only a little compromise in the design and less than one minute extra trip time and best for the political situation. The line will still be at-grade, and the enemies of at-grade light-rail have been defeated as a result. Moreover, this will also defeat the Phase 2 obstructionist by setting precedent for at-grade light-rail near a school.
So, the score so far is Expo: 84 - NIMBYs: 3 or something like that. I expect the final score to be something like Expo: 105 - NIMBYs: 3. Farmdale Station will be the only field goal of the NIMBYs and Expo has kept scoring one touchdown after another, and the approval of at-grade light-rail at Farmdale will be their most celebrated touchdown so far.
Given the circumstances this is also best for Expo, as it's only a little compromise in the design and less than one minute extra trip time and best for the political situation. The line will still be at-grade, and the enemies of at-grade light-rail have been defeated as a result. Moreover, this will also defeat the Phase 2 obstructionist by setting precedent for at-grade light-rail near a school.
The Farmdale station option, IMO, is an example of the long-term future of the Expo Line being dictated by a few people who have frivolous concerns now. Once the line opens, people will better understand what the Expo Line brings to them and they will learn the Expo Line is safe. Yet we will be stuck the Farmdale station forever.
The stop-and-go option would be much better because the stop requirement could be lifted a few years down the line. Taking out the station, on the other hand, would prove politically impossible at any time in the foreseeable future.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #877 on Mar 23, 2010, 12:10am »
LAUSD wouldn't settle for stop-and-go, as they wouldn't be benefiting from it. The station only adds 10 - 20 seconds (because of station dwell) to the trip time in comparison to the stop-and-go. It also makes much more sense both from a common-sense and a technical view to stop for a station rather than to stop for no reason. Moreover, psychologically, a station is less likely to be perceived as a slow-down than a stop-and-go.
Regarding eliminating the stop-and-go or station in the future, they are equally impossible. Were they able to speed up the Gold Line on Marmion Way after all these years despite its perfect safety record? CPUC rulings, once made, are regarded as canonical law, and they are very, very difficult to revert as far as I understand. Perhaps that would only change if a different agency took over the responsibility of approving light-rail grade crossings from CPUC.
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 426 Location: Cheviot Hills, Los Angeles, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #878 on Mar 23, 2010, 8:09am »
Despite the 10-20 second slowdown, the station amounts to easy transit access for Dorsey High School students. If I went to school there, I'd really like that! I might ge used to something other than the car.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #879 on Mar 23, 2010, 10:36am »
Certainly it's great for the students. No school in the world would turn down a light-rail station at their doorstep. The school alone will give them a ridership around 1,000 per day. Since the La Brea Station has no parking, many people who drive will park on adjacent streets and use this station. Since it's conveniently located almost exactly in the middle between the La Brea and Crenshaw Stations, it will further enhance ridership in the area. But I'm not sure if the one minute extra total trip time will decrease the overall ridership. Speed certainly matters as well when it comes to light-rail.
They should make better use of the Expo Inn lot than a surface parking lot for the school. A TOD would suit well there. This way they also get reimbursed for the acquisition. A parking lot is a waste in many aspects.
It'll make it easier for students to ditch school -- fast!
Very certainly. Lycée in Palms and Overland School and Foshay School by Western and many others will all have this privilege. Good luck for the school officials and parents trying to keep their kids in school. LOL
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 380 Location: Montréal, QC (Canada)
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #882 on Mar 23, 2010, 12:04pm »
Here's a link to a story on it. Why is it always one person who gets all the quotes when the opposition is cited? It makes me feel like it's just a couple of mamby-pambys with no job, trying to get on the news. This goes for Cheviot too - Tippet and the rest - all seem to be unemployed... sigh.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #883 on Mar 23, 2010, 1:02pm »
Damien had been asked by his own pro bono lawyers not to be a party in the CPUC proceedings any more after his "We will go nuclear" comments and a long history of personal attacks on various people, and now he is targeting the Expo staff.
The only real player in Farmdale now is LAUSD and they want the station, and the community wants it as well. A train stopped and then slowly moving across a cleared intersetion is obviously perfectly safe.
It's true that people like Terri Tippit of the Cheviot Hills area have no real jobs and they use their free time to torment the city. Damien has been doing some work for them now -- he was moving chairs at the recent NFSR meeting I attended, in which I was personally attacked by Terri Tippit for being an Expo advocate. During her attack she called me the "opposition."
A train stopped and then slowly moving across a cleared intersetion is obviously perfectly safe.
You would think, but my impression from reading about pedestrian-train accidents on the blue line over the last 6 years is that most of them happen at the station or adjacent to it.
A train stopped and then slowly moving across a cleared intersetion is obviously perfectly safe.
You would think, but my impression from reading about pedestrian-train accidents on the blue line over the last 6 years is that most of them happen at the station or adjacent to it.
It's quite different for Farmdale. The Blue Line stations are far-side platforms, meaning the trains are traveling as fast as 25 MPH across the crossing before they pull to the platform. The Farmdale Station is specifically designed for safety with near-side platforms, and the trains will come to a full stop before the crossing. There will also be fences and pedestrian gates and pedestrian plazas, in addition to visual and audible warnings. Then the train will move across the intersection only after the driver is sure that it's clear. I don't think any light-rail line in the world has been designed with more safety features than at Farmdale.
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #886 on Mar 23, 2010, 9:03pm »
In the long term, this might be a really great feature of Dorsey High School that will probably be boasted about in years to come. I really hope it helps those students get access to field trips throughout the City, especially after the Downtown Connector and Crenshaw Lines are built.
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #887 on Mar 23, 2010, 9:56pm »
Metrocenter, If the trains are going to slow down, stop, and start again (which takes about 40 seconds, I believe), we might as well open the doors for an extra 20 seconds and let people on and off the trains. At least I think this is the logic behind a station instead of "stop and proceed."
Of course, it will cost a few million to build the platforms and other station facilities, but that's small change compared to grade separations. I would certainly prefer that the court allow Metro to send trains thru there at full speed, as is done at quad-gated intersections on the Gold Line with great success, but I can stand the extra minute of time for this rather unnecessary station.
Too bad Expo has to build more parking spaces for teachers (won't any of the take the train? Oh right, they all live in Orange County...). A big transit-oriented development at that corner could help pay for the cost of the station. Now if you could rebuild the high school as a new, urban development, then you might be able to justify a station...
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 426 Location: Cheviot Hills, Los Angeles, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #888 on Mar 23, 2010, 10:32pm »
The thought of a quad-gated station with trains barreling past a high school would leave LA the butt of a bad joke ...that educating kids has become so unimportant in LA that the city has its new trains barreling past a high school rather than stopping for students. I'm glad we dodged that one.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #889 on Mar 24, 2010, 10:22am »
Reading the motion submitted by Expo in January, it looks like it will still be several months before Farmdale is approved. So, we are probably looking at July or August for the final approval. After the CPUC certification of the addendum to the EIR, an official settlement must be reached between LAUSD and Expo, which must then be approved by CPUC. Then, there must be a proposed decision to approve Farmdale, which can no sooner be voted on than 30 days. So, it's a lengthy bureaucratic process.
"Adoption of an appropriate environmental document regarding the pending proposal for a Farmdale Avenue crossing will greatly assist Expo Authority and LAUSD – both public agencies – in completing their own review and approval of the terms of a settlement agreement that would propose a Farmdale Avenue crossing designed to satisfy the legitimate concerns of both parties. Once the Commission has certified an appropriate environmental document, the two agencies will be able to rely on that document in deciding whether to enter into a settlement agreement. That settlement agreement, once executed with the approval of the governing boards of both agencies, would then be submitted for consideration by the Commission with an accompanying motion for Commission review and approval in accordance with the Commission’s rules."
Despite the 10-20 second slowdown, the station amounts to easy transit access for Dorsey High School students. If I went to school there, I'd really like that! I might ge used to something other than the car.
Certainly it's great for the students. No school in the world would turn down a light-rail station at their doorstep. The school alone will give them a ridership around 1,000 per day.
To those who claim a Farmdale station will allow easy access for students to get to Dorsey High School, I present the following map of the catchment area of Dorsey High School (Expo Line and blue shading added by me):
For the Expo Line to provide students a trip to Dorsey, a station must be both near the school (check!) and near their home. Furthermore, the station must be geometrically oriented with respect to their home such that the Expo Line would offer time savings over simply walking. Will the Farmdale station actually help Dorsey HS students? (I don't have an answer.)
« Last Edit: Mar 24, 2010, 8:29pm by Justin Walker »
Joined: Jun 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 380 Location: Montréal, QC (Canada)
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #891 on Mar 24, 2010, 2:04pm »
In another blog someone posted this link to a writers observations about safety on the blue line along with some nice video showing tram and people together in France.
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 426 Location: Cheviot Hills, Los Angeles, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #892 on Mar 24, 2010, 2:15pm »
I'd anticipate a catchment such as the one you've mapped out, Justin. Thanks! It's very helpful to see it drawn out. But regarding use of the train, I had in mind not from home to school and back ...heck, they should walk! Rather I was thinking about access to museums, to libraries and other resources, also to recreation and with the result ...possibly reduced driving. However, the counter argument is that the La Brea station is sufficiently close, and with that thought, I agree. Bottom line is that we're stuck with the Farmdale station. I hope Dorsey admin. can facilitate the best use of the resource.
I'd anticipate a catchment such as the one you've mapped out, Justin. Thanks! It's very helpful to see it drawn out. But regarding use of the train, I had in mind not from home to school and back ...heck, they should walk! Rather I was thinking about access to museums, to libraries and other resources, also to recreation and with the result ...possibly reduced driving. However, the counter argument is that the La Brea station is sufficiently close, and with that thought, I agree. Bottom line is that we're stuck with the Farmdale station. I hope Dorsey admin. can facilitate the best use of the resource.
Dorsey High School and Overland Elementary School will have easy access to some first-rate field trips!
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 3,998 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #894 on Mar 24, 2010, 2:36pm »
Well, guys, we all agree that 55 MPH straight through without station would be the best and this station is not being built out of real need.
But since LAUSD objected the closure of Farmdale, station is the only option remaining. There is no point in not putting a station if there is going to be a 24-hour mandatory stop. In fact, that would be psychologically worse.
The only alternative would be an LRT bridge, which would mean at least two years of delay, tens of millions of dollars extra, and losing the battle for at-grade LRT, which could make future at-grade LRT very difficult, including Expo Phase 2.
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,110 Location: Cal Heights, Long Beach, CA
Re: Dorsey High School Grade Crossing Issue « Reply #895 on Mar 24, 2010, 3:06pm »
That "catchment" (I'd never heard of that term before!) is pretty extensive, more so than I had expected. Given that map, I can definitely imagine some students will take the bus to/from school. Specifically, I'm envisioning parents stopping by Crenshaw Station or La Brea Station to drop off students for school. Or kids taking the train to Downtown L.A., for example, to meet their parents at work after school.
And of course, to paraphrase the good Dr. Alpern, they could easily use Expo to take some kick-ass feel trips like to Santa Monica Pier, Exposition Park, Bergamot Station or Cheviot Hills.
« Last Edit: Mar 24, 2010, 3:06pm by metrocenter »
Well, guys, we all agree that 55 MPH straight through without station would be the best and this station is not being built out of real need.
I disagree. I think that the crossing is much too busy during peak periods for 55mph operation and that the station is a great compromise and that such a compromise was needed.
Well, guys, we all agree that 55 MPH straight through without station would be the best and this station is not being built out of real need.
I disagree. I think that the crossing is much too busy during peak periods for 55mph operation and that the station is a great compromise and that such a compromise was needed.
You're forgetting that 55 MPH operation could have been attained through the first option, closing Farmdale and totally eliminating the interface between the trains and the vehicles and pedestrians.
Here's a link to a story on it. Why is it always one person who gets all the quotes when the opposition is cited? It makes me feel like it's just a couple of mamby-pambys with no job, trying to get on the news. This goes for Cheviot too - Tippet and the rest - all seem to be unemployed... sigh.
Makes you think if all the opponents of at-grade crossing thinks that we're generally not smart enough to mix with trains at-grade just like the French do.
Makes you think if all the opponents of at-grade crossing thinks that we're generally not smart enough to mix with trains at-grade just like the French do.
Not just the French, as shown by this scene in Portland. Granted the trains are going at pedestrian mall speed through the Saturday Market, but everyone knows to step out of the way.
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Lycée in Palms and Overland School and Foshay School by Western and many others will all have this privilege. Good luck for the school officials and parents trying to keep their kids in school. LOL
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