Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,158 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Thread Started on Dec 2, 2008, 10:44pm »
The Metro Lines in Los Angeles are famous for going from nowhere to nowhere. The Purple Line ends in Koreatown. The Gold Line doesn't reach Downtown Los Angeles. The Green Line claims to go to a "Redondo Beach" Station, which is actually miles north in Lawndale.
But, ironically, it turns out that the South Bay is crisscrossed with railroad rights-of-way, thanks to the proximity to the harbor. Some of these rights-of-way are active, while others are abandoned.
There is a well-preserved right-of-way, which connects the current Green Line/Harbor Subdivision near PCH/Rosecrans to the future Green Line/Harbor Subdivision near Hawthorne/190th. This right-of-way is 100-ft-wide and it's fully preserved as the "Greenbelt Park." It is roughly halfway between PCH and the beach. It joins an abandoned but fully preserved Pacific Electric right-of-way, 200-ft-wide, at Herondo St in Redondo Beach.
This extension of the Green Line would fully serve the Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach area, being close to both the Pacific Coast Highway and the beach.
Note that the Greenbelt Park could still be preserved. The light-rail tracks take 30 ft, leaving 70 ft for the park.
Below are the maps and proposed station locations.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #2 on Dec 3, 2008, 12:27am »
I concur with jejozwik--it IS a very interesting suggestion, but I don't know if the local interest and ridership would be there. I also don't know if this would be preferred by those living in the area who choose to do so because the area is so exclusive and off-the-beaten-path.
That said, I wonder if a quaint trolley connection (a sort of modern-day or even restored red car) wouldn't be popular amongst the residents and the visitors as a way to promote tourism.
The South Bay Cities Council of Governments seems to be entirely focused on getting the Green Line to LAX and to the South Bay Galleria Mall--once those connections are created, it's possible that linking lines such as these would become more attractive in the future.
Rather than drive, ride! Ride Metro Rail, Metro bus, bicycle, vanpool, carpool, motorcycle!
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 205 Location: Near Metro Rapid 761 "station"
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #3 on Dec 3, 2008, 12:50am »
That "PCH/Rosecrans Station" is currently overflow parking for Fry's Electronics in Manhattan Beach downhill a bit from the main lot. What's nice about that ROW is that it comes included with grade separation under Sepulveda Blvd/PCH (SR1); it should be put to good use.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #5 on Nov 5, 2009, 6:06am »
I just don't see this happening, the Manhattan Beach Village (Fry's parking lot) is in the way, and on Anita/190th there are high voltage power lines & farmland with very steep grades.
Anyway the Green Line will make it to Torrance because that's where the energy is being focused right now to get it to the two new transit centers that'll be built in the next ~5 years on the right of way.
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 364 Location: West of West Adams
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #6 on Nov 5, 2009, 11:28am »
It's not a bad idea Gokhan, but I'm afraid I don't see it happening either. Not because of a Fry's parking lot (not an issue) or because of grade (it's probably fine) but because this ROW has been converted to "The Hermosa Valley Greenbelt" You'll never convince these wealthy enclaves to give up their jog path.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #7 on Nov 5, 2009, 12:04pm »
That reminds me of the BART right-of-way through the San Ramon Valley connecting Walnut Creek to Pleasanton. It was turned into a "horse trail". Making that part of the BART system was seen as a non-starter despite the desire and parked park-and-ride lots because the wealthy wouldn't want to give up the horse trail. (My feeling was, "couldn't we MOVE the horse trail and even create a bigger and better one?")
Joined: Mar 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,158 Location: Palms, LA, CA
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #8 on Nov 5, 2009, 12:37pm »
It's probably not necessary to continue along Herondo/190th if this is found to be too expensive. The line would still connect the South Bay to the Green Line in the north.
The station at the currently Fry's overflow parking lot at Sepulveda/Rosecrans would be a trench station very similar to the Expo/USC Station, as there would be a new underpass at Rosecrans. Then the tracks would rise slowly at-grade and the platforms would be partially below grade. The tracks would reach the existing ground level at the existing underpass at Sepulveda. The distance along the tracks between Rosecrans and Sepulveda is about 850 ft, same as the distance between Pardee Way and Trousdale Parkway at USC; so, there is space to do this.
Regarding neighborhood opposition I'm sure there will be some as with any LRT project. But this would blend in with the park, and the park would be more useful with a bicycle and pedestrian path. If the cities wish to do this, this very useful project can happen and take Los Angeles to the next level in transportation.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5 Location: Glendale, CA
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #9 on Nov 5, 2009, 4:15pm »
Good luck with that, Gokhan. I grew up in Manhattan Beach and still remember the weekly ATSF deliveries going clackety-clak down the ROW between Valley and Ardmore up until the early 80s. There was even a local ballot initiative (1984???) that would have set aside study money for a historic style PE trolley to run back-and-forth between the Redondo pier and the newly built Manhattan Mall. As you can imagine, opposition to this plan quickly galvanized around the usual NIMBY reasons and the initiative was easily defeated at the polls. I even remember one house overlooking the ROW had painted an old timey locomotive with a big red slash through it on their garage door as a statement of opposition. The anti-train mural lasted several years after the issue was put to rest.
You could probably head down to the Manhattan Beach library or historical society and do more research on the proposal if you're really serious. Archived editions of the Manhattan Beach Reporter or the Easy Reader might have something to say about the issue too.
But also keep in mind that beach communities like Manhattan and Hermosa Beach can be very, very parochial. People identify you by which beach you hang out at (1st Street, 4th Street, Marine, El Porto) and the local attitude is still often wary of anybody and anything "east of Sepulveda".
Good luck with that, Gokhan. I grew up in Manhattan Beach and still remember the weekly ATSF deliveries going clackety-clak down the ROW between Valley and Ardmore up until the early 80s. There was even a local ballot initiative (1984???) that would have set aside study money for a historic style PE trolley to run back-and-forth between the Redondo pier and the newly built Manhattan Mall. As you can imagine, opposition to this plan quickly galvanized around the usual NIMBY reasons and the initiative was easily defeated at the polls. I even remember one house overlooking the ROW had painted an old timey locomotive with a big red slash through it on their garage door as a statement of opposition. The anti-train mural lasted several years after the issue was put to rest.
You could probably head down to the Manhattan Beach library or historical society and do more research on the proposal if you're really serious. Archived editions of the Manhattan Beach Reporter or the Easy Reader might have something to say about the issue too.
But also keep in mind that beach communities like Manhattan and Hermosa Beach can be very, very parochial. People identify you by which beach you hang out at (1st Street, 4th Street, Marine, El Porto) and the local attitude is still often wary of anybody and anything "east of Sepulveda".
Very interesting information, Matt, thanks. I wonder if LACMTA owns this right-of-way. It seems to be abandoned around the same time as the Southern Pacific Santa Monica Branch (also known as the Pacific Electric Railway Air Line or the current Metro Expo Line). One good thing about it though it was kept fully intact. Many Pacific Electric rights-of-way in Venice, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Los Angeles, etc. were sold to private developers by their respective cities. That's why the Expo Line terminates at 17th St in Santa Monica, whereas, in the past, it used to go all the way to Inglewood (through Venice and Marina Del Rey) and connect with the ATSF/BNSF Harbor Subdivision there.
There will always be NIMBYs. If the cities are willing, things can be built though. Many young people in the beach areas would love to have light-rail. It's usually the older folks who are against rail. But these are the ones who usually own homes next to the tracks in affluent neighborhoods. But the mentality against rail transit is certainly changing. When it reaches Santa Monica, the Expo Line will be an envy for the South Bay beach cities.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #11 on Nov 5, 2009, 7:51pm »
Gokhan, I like the idea, and I believe that it will come to pass one day. I also think that times have changed a lot since 1984 concerning thinking about light rail. Try driving down Sepulveda during rush hour now. I lived in Hermosa back in 1984, but don't remember much about the voting aspect. I'm very familiar with the corridor though. I'm assuming that you would have it at grade since the ROW is so wide?
Once the DTC and this guy are in, I'll be 2 train rides from the Hermosa Beach pier!
Gokhan, I like the idea, and I believe that it will come to pass one day. I also think that times have changed a lot since 1984 concerning thinking about light rail. Try driving down Sepulveda during rush hour now. I lived in Hermosa back in 1984, but don't remember much about the voting aspect. I'm very familiar with the corridor though. I'm assuming that you would have it at grade since the ROW is so wide?
Once the DTC and this guy are in, I'll be 2 train rides from the Hermosa Beach pier!
RT
I think so, too, rubbertoe, that this line will happen one day.
Yes, I've the picture above, which I took from my car. It's nightmare on Sepulveda there during rush hour. It may take you two hours to travel between Manhattan Beach and Redondo Beach.
The line would be a great connection to LAX, Crenshaw Line, and Expo Line. One day, when the Crenshaw Line is extended on San Vicente Blvd to West Hollywood, you would have a direct line between South Bay and West Hollywood. Then, you would be able to take a fast Red Line train to Westwood or Century City from there.
The only grade separation needed would be at Rosecrans. An underpass would probably be preferred there given the medical facilities, which would otherwise be next to a rail bridge. Then, there would be a shallow open-trench station, like the Expo/USC Station, in what is currently leased to Fry's as an extra parking lot. There is already an underpass at Sepulveda, which is at least 30-ft-wide I believe. The rest of the right-of-way has only minor crossings -- ideal for a light-rail line. Therefore it would be naturally at-grade. Then, perhaps, a grade separation may also be needed at Herondo at the end of the line.
and FYI, the locals affectionately called the Sepulveda underpass "Hobo Bridge" as it was a favorite encampment for the occasional transient.
This is great information, Matt, thanks! So, this line was one of the oldest rail lines in Los Angeles and probably the main passenger line for the South Bay before the Pacific Electric electric trains came. It definitely needs to be reused as a transit line as, unlike the other, active ATSF/BNSF Harbor subdivision, which goes through more industrial areas, this ATSF branch has actually the perfect route for a transit line!
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #15 on Nov 6, 2009, 1:03pm »
A terrific idea, but one that I doubt will ever become a reality. We could maybe get a line as far as Rosecrans and Sepulveda, but the NIMBY's along the existing Greenbelt are quite well-off, and would cut this thing off at the knees. It would make Cheviot Hills look like a walk in the park.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #16 on Nov 6, 2009, 5:18pm »
Just some thought regarding NIMBYism -- Most of these gray-haired people opposing Expo, and the ones that would likely oppose this proposal are of the generation that killed off rail in the first place. They're the car generation... the one that championed that whole "two cars in every driveway" thing. So why would they be for putting rail lines in place of the ones their contemporaries took out years back?
Couple that with the fact that many of these people are retired (meaning they don't have to deal with traffic that working commuters do) and it makes sense why these people are opposing these transit lines in the way they do. Plus they have the time on their hands to be gadflies!
It seems to be the tide is turning as these NIMBY-types -- pardon putting it so blatantly -- die off. The younger generation just doesn't think like these old folks do. The future looks bright.... I'd say in 20 years the political support for a proposal like this one would exist, but not yet....
Just some thought regarding NIMBYism -- Most of these gray-haired people opposing Expo, and the ones that would likely oppose this proposal are of the generation that killed off rail in the first place. They're the car generation... the one that championed that whole "two cars in every driveway" thing. So why would they be for putting rail lines in place of the ones their contemporaries took out years back?
Couple that with the fact that many of these people are retired (meaning they don't have to deal with traffic that working commuters do) and it makes sense why these people are opposing these transit lines in the way they do. Plus they have the time on their hands to be gadflies!
It seems to be the tide is turning as these NIMBY-types -- pardon putting it so blatantly -- die off. The younger generation just doesn't think like these old folks do. The future looks bright.... I'd say in 20 years the political support for a proposal like this one would exist, but not yet....
Actually that's exactly what I think, stuckintraffic. These people are the ones who were the youth of the 50s, driving their big, fancy American cars around the town with their friends and dates -- the generation of good bye to rail and welcome to cars. What is wrong with them is that part of their brains still thinks that they are young. I was talking to a couple in their 70s living on Exposition and Overland and I asked them if they wanted the train. They laughed and said Yes! But they were just being sarcastic. Then they said, No, we don't want a damned train; we've got cars!
Give them another 30 years though, given that many people live close to 100 nowadays.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #18 on Nov 7, 2009, 11:28pm »
I don't disagree with your demographic perspective, but I don't think it applies along the Greenbelt. Most of those homeowners are much younger, and very well-off yuppies who would sooner die than give up their Beemer.
Re: Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach extension « Reply #19 on Nov 8, 2009, 1:07am »
...and, having studied and heard from South Bay representatives for years, I don't think this would be a priority anytime soon compared to...say...the Green Line to the South Bay Galleria (which enjoys a lot of support from Redondo Beach representatives and even the South Bay Cities Council of Governments).
Still, it's always nice to dream, debate and discuss.
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