I don't understand why Metro charges more when the bus or BRT is on a freeway... is it really a time advantage worth the extra money? I rode one of these for a year and it was slow, but annoyingly expensive - so I bought a car. Trains and all bus lines should be the same amount.
Someday soon, IMHO, Metro will switch to a distance based fare.
The original reason for freeway zone fare is because the buses were running "express" service and thus commands a premium from "local" service that took surface streets. I think it is a fair charge if it does involve faster service... but can be debatable.
When Metro received Federal funds to convert El Monte Bus Way and Harbor Bus Way to HOT lanes, one of the stipulation was that Metro will "improve bus service" on this corridor. Metro's specific offer was to charge regular fares on the corridor (i.e. $1.50 per boarding) and improve frequencies. Thus the services were consolidated into Silver Line in anticipation of the fare restructuring. However, this did not happen... and the reason buses currently charge zone fare on freeway is because Foothill Transit made such a big fuss about Metro trying to "steal" its Silver Streak business, that Metro concluded it wasn't worth going nuclear over turf battles.
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #76 on Apr 9, 2012, 5:39pm »
Actually, the zone fare is charged to make up for the lack of boardings/alightings that come with running without stopping.
By this I mean, a local line has a constant churn of customers as it goes along its route, so they cost less to operate. Freeway Express services don't. Often, people ride for long periods and after a certain point, when the bus enters the freeway for example, there are little to no boardings/alightings at all. Why does this increase costs? Because the operator, generally the largest cost of operating a bus route is being paid for the time they have to drive while there is no customer activity. The zone charge exists to offset this.
Routes where people ride for long periods of time make for expensive transit service. So while you may see butts in the seats it doesn't really mean the service is being productive in terms of costs. Don't confuse this from being a success though, some routes are designed to be like this.
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #77 on Apr 10, 2012, 7:17pm »
The counterbalance is that you will have people who will prefer to ride local service over the express, and they occupy more seat time and thus cost the agency more. For example, consider the passengers on the 745 or Blue Line who could be taking the Silver Line, but because of the higher fare use the local or rail and require added service, or send the Blue Line to capacity. I know there are some end to end 770 and 70 riders... sometimes I am one of them. Metro staff has looked into a way to accommodate Harbor people while not running afoul of Foothill and their champion on the Board, the SGV representative John Fasana.
Unfortunately all of them, like charging an exit fare at El Monte or charging different fares for passengers north of a certain point in Downtown, are unpractical and cause even more customer confusion than the flat fare. There is probably a "ransom" price that Metro could pay Foothill which could make this all go away, but no one really wants to do it, and where would the money come from anyway? And the other issues with the Silver Streak, like lazy scheduling, delays due to the permanent detour, and long boarding times (due to cash payments, as compared to the actual fare amount) don't resolve themselves when you take care of the fare.
The counterbalance is that you will have people who will prefer to ride local service over the express, and they occupy more seat time and thus cost the agency more. For example, consider the passengers on the 745 or Blue Line who could be taking the Silver Line, but because of the higher fare use the local or rail and require added service, or send the Blue Line to capacity. I know there are some end to end 770 and 70 riders... sometimes I am one of them. Metro staff has looked into a way to accommodate Harbor people while not running afoul of Foothill and their champion on the Board, the SGV representative John Fasana.
Unfortunately all of them, like charging an exit fare at El Monte or charging different fares for passengers north of a certain point in Downtown, are unpractical and cause even more customer confusion than the flat fare. There is probably a "ransom" price that Metro could pay Foothill which could make this all go away, but no one really wants to do it, and where would the money come from anyway? And the other issues with the Silver Streak, like lazy scheduling, delays due to the permanent detour, and long boarding times (due to cash payments, as compared to the actual fare amount) don't resolve themselves when you take care of the fare.
I think you may be missing the point, while there are end-to-end riders, they aren't as numerous as short distance riders. This is why local lines are more productive. So people who choose to ride end-to-end on a local or limited stop service aren't really pushing planners one way or the other because it's fairly normal.
I do agree that the El Monte Busway needs better coordination, but it's going to be extremely difficult on both sides. Frankly, what I think you will see if better coordination when frequencies are low (so late night/early morning) and then a unified fare west of El Monte if they can agree on terms.
This is only for weekly and monthly pass holders, not the day pass holders and cash fare riders who are now a large percentage of Silver Line customers, but it will slough off some of the load off the Silver Line in the morning (the afternoon loads seem to be OK, at least based on my observation at Cal State when I wait for a Commuter Express bus). "All existing upcharges to base passes apply" which means that Metro 7 and 30 day regular passengers will still have to pay the $1.50 extra, and for the discount categories they will have to pay $2.25 or 85 cents extra, depending on time when they board, while Metro discount passengers, which are almost 50% of the total passes sold, pay no surcharge to ride the Silver Line. Foothill riders get the better of the deal, since they would be able to ride the entire length of the Silver Line to Artesia Transit Center, and their discount riders who now have to pay a surcharge 12 hours out of the day get to ride Metro Silver Line for free, which has no surcharge, and the $105 base pass is cheaper than the $119 monthly pass nominally required to ride the Silver Line (although most mornings there are quite a few people that drop the dollar surcharge in the box when the farebox beeps). I think the devil is in the details but a few of the riders could switch to Foothill, which is the only direction that is important.
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #80 on Apr 12, 2012, 8:16am »
Is there any hope of extending the Silver Line south to San Pedro and east to say Cal Poly Pomona and Montclair?
Is it just me or does the Silver Streak look like a natural extension of the Silver Line on this Foothill Transit map.
These artificial forced transfers between muni operators are frustrating. There is no muni operator in San Pedro I can see on the Metro map. When I was in NYC, Metro was taking over the Queens services from the other operators.
I guess transit only lanes through downtown is too much to hope for either.
« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2012, 8:29am by Dan Wentzel »
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #81 on Apr 12, 2012, 10:25am »
In the case of the Silver Line & Silver Streak the transfers aren't artificially forced by any means. Both lines are very long, long lines make it hard to be reliable, and use a lot of resources. Because of this it's extremely unlikely that there will be an extension, especially to the east where service levels are adequate.
I have talked to my colleagues at Metro about eliminating line 450 and replacing it with an extension of the Silver Line to San Pedro, but layover and route length issues are what essentially prevent this.
I guess transit only lanes through downtown is too much to hope for either.
ive always thought that the transit way should have connected to flower street and convert flower street up to washington into Bus only lanes. but with the expo line built it looks to complicated to even complete the transitway.
According to The Source, Foothill Transit will drop its Silver Streak fare to $2.45 - same as Metro Silver Line. But more importantly, Foothill and Metro will both accept proof of payment from the other agency so effectively, this will interline the Silver Streak and Silver Line services between El Monte Bus Depot and Union Station. During peak hours, this means the frequency nearly doubles between El Monte Bus Depot and Union Station as riders can board the first bus rather than wait for the Metro or Foothill bus base on which ticket/daily/weekly/monthly pass they carry.
It's little unclear if Foothill will accept Metro monthly pass if you board at Montclair or Pomona; or if Metro will accept Foothill monthly pass at Artesia/Gateway Transit Center. But if they do, you could travel from Montclair to Gardena for only $2.45.
Note: I started a new thread on the topic but then realized I could have just continued this thread. I will ask the moderator to delete the other one.
According to The Source, Foothill Transit will drop its Silver Streak fare to $2.45 - same as Metro Silver Line. But more importantly, Foothill and Metro will both accept proof of payment from the other agency so effectively, this will interline the Silver Streak and Silver Line services between El Monte Bus Depot and Union Station. During peak hours, this means the frequency nearly doubles between El Monte Bus Depot and Union Station as riders can board the first bus rather than wait for the Metro or Foothill bus base on which ticket/daily/weekly/monthly pass they carry.
It's little unclear if Foothill will accept Metro monthly pass if you board at Montclair or Pomona; or if Metro will accept Foothill monthly pass at Artesia/Gateway Transit Center. But if they do, you could travel from Montclair to Gardena for only $2.45.
Note: I started a new thread on the topic but then realized I could have just continued this thread. I will ask the moderator to delete the other one.
In talking with staff recently, passes will only be accepted in the common corridors. So Downtown LA to El Monte Station
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #85 on Jun 16, 2012, 9:02pm »
This actually is unenforceable since TAP EZ Passes will be deployed in September, concurrent with this change (El Monte Station is scheduled to open in September). We'll have to see the tariffs on this one.
Re: Silver Line BRT (El Monte and Harbor Transitwa « Reply #86 Yesterday at 9:53am »
Reposted from Blue Line Express topic, since this is mainly about the Silver Line:
The "new" (rebranded) Silver Line has shown impressive ridership growth this year, admittedly from a very poor baseline, because it does make a reasonable alternative for people who would otherwise be transferring to the Blue Line from the western half of South LA.
Already Google Maps suggests you transfer to the Silver Line for trips to Metro Center from near Slauson, Manchester or Imperial Highway (or the Green line) west of the Silver Line. The problem is the lack of stops; with stops only every 2 miles thru South LA, the majority of areas are not within walking distance of a bus that would transfer to the Silver Line. It even lacks stops at Vernon and Florence, which both have very frequent bus service.
This suggests a problem with a limited-stop Blue Line (or Metrolink South) line: it would be hard to access for people in the middle of the route, where the blue line actually becomes crowded, between the Green Line and LA.
As someone who lived in Long Beach, I would have loved to have a faster option to LA, and I've previously posted how a Metrolink line could be constructed between Long Beach and LA. But the biggest need is for more traditional rapid transit lines, accessible by walking with stops every 1/2 mile or at least every mile.
Real BRT routes should be added on Vermont (754), Broadway (745), and Long Beach Blvd (760), and perhaps Western (757), with bus-only lanes, off-board payment and better signal priority, giving faster and more reliable trips. Many people in South LA would chose to ride these buses to their destination or transfer to Expo or the Purple Line, instead of taking an east-west bus to the Blue Line.
The Silver Line would better relieve the Blue Line if it were actually LESS limited-stop. Adding stops at Century, Vernon, Florence and MLK would add 5 minutes to the trip for people coming from San Pedro, but it would triple the number of people in South LA who could access the line, and would likely double Silver Line ridership in the southern half of the line.
If the Silver Line became sufficiently popular to support very frequent service, some buses could make the current stops (every 2 miles) or even few stops (though I would brand them as express buses), while the official "Silver Line" buses could stop every 1/2 mile or 1 mile to provide more access.
This would require spending more money on new stations, but Metro loves building stuff and could use the new "Express Lanes" as an excuse to get money for the improvements. They could add some sound walls at the same time, to cut down the freeway noise at the stations.
If after all these improvements, and after building the Santa Ana corridor light rail and a Vermont rail line, there is still crowding on the Blue Line, it would make sense to buy or rent the freight right of way and run "Metrolink" trains from Long Beach to LA Union Station (via the tracks along the bank of the LA River), as a faster service for trips all the way from Long Beach to LA, and from important intermediate stations like the Green Line, or for people who are trying to get to Union Station instead of the heart of Downtown
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Calendar]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/calendar.gif "[Calendar]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
Logged