|
Post by darrell on Apr 22, 2011 14:24:31 GMT -8
Foothill Transit has three prototype battery-electric buses made by Proterra. Here's a video of one that was on display at the AQMD on Wednesday. (Couldn't get the embedded video tag to work.)
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 22, 2011 15:48:59 GMT -8
Foothill Transit has three prototype battery-electric buses made by Proterra. Here's a video of one that was on display at the AQMD on Wednesday. (Couldn't get the embedded video tag to work.) Many places around the world used trolleybuses in transition from streetcars to buses. Trolleybuses are nowhere as cool as streetcars but it's fun to watch the trolleys sparking. San Francisco still uses them and one obnoxious driver almost squeezed my car with his trolleybus once. I find it questionable how good the electric cars are on the environment. These huge battery packs can't be good for the environment, even if they are recycled. Darrell, what are your thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Apr 22, 2011 22:07:49 GMT -8
Trolley buses are actually considered streetcars under most legislation. In Massachusetts, for example, you dont need a drivers license to drive a trolleybus, because it's not a motor vehicle.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 22, 2011 23:03:35 GMT -8
I find it questionable how good the electric cars are on the environment. These huge battery packs can't be good for the environment, even if they are recycled. Darrell, what are your thoughts? Electric buses are much more energy-efficient, especially on runs with a lot of stopping and starting where their regenerative braking recharges batteries. One of the slides had this comparison in diesel mpg equivalent: CNG -- 3.3 Diesel -- 3.9 Hybrid -- 4.6 Ecoliner -- 17.5
|
|
|
Post by ieko on Apr 22, 2011 23:11:09 GMT -8
I think the main concern would be how long the batteries last and how do they deteriorate. Buses that use CNG, Diesel, or Gasoline have a fixed range, buses that use batteries don't. Batteries hold less of a charge as time goes and when I was talking to Proterra they said their batteries last about 4 years, although they hoped to come out with ones that last longer.
The other issue is scheduling, if a battery powered bus is late and the bus needs to be charged when it gets to the end of the line, the operator can't just turn around and try to make that time back up by skipping his/her break (not that it should work this way but things happen).
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 23, 2011 12:49:10 GMT -8
I find it questionable how good the electric cars are on the environment. These huge battery packs can't be good for the environment, even if they are recycled. Darrell, what are your thoughts? Electric buses are much more energy-efficient, especially on runs with a lot of stopping and starting where their regenerative braking recharges batteries. One of the slides had this comparison in diesel mpg equivalent: CNG -- 3.3 Diesel -- 3.9 Hybrid -- 4.6 Ecoliner -- 17.5 I was asking about the carbon footprint of mining for, manufacturing, and recycling the batteries.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 23, 2011 18:37:13 GMT -8
I was asking about the carbon footprint of mining for, manufacturing, and recycling the batteries. My understanding is that there's lots of lithium available, and not with any exceptional production impact. There's also talk about reusing degraded batteries - that only take 60-80% of the charge of new ones but otherwise work - for stationary purposes, before ultimately recycling them for their materials.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Apr 23, 2011 21:28:36 GMT -8
I was asking about the carbon footprint of mining for, manufacturing, and recycling the batteries. What the carbon footprint for mining, extracting and refining diesel?
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Apr 23, 2011 22:20:16 GMT -8
The electric trolley buses in San Francisco (powered from overhead wires) receive their electricity from the Hetch Hetchy hydro plant in the Sierra foothills. The same municipal power system runs the light rail cars, electric streetcars, and even powers the large stationary motors that haul the cable car cables. Can't get much greener than that.
|
|
|
Post by transitfan on Apr 25, 2011 8:22:12 GMT -8
Trolley buses are actually considered streetcars under most legislation. In Massachusetts, for example, you dont need a drivers license to drive a trolleybus, because it's not a motor vehicle. That's interesting, as at SF Muni, the trolleybuses have license plates, same as the diesel buses, which leads me to believe that the state of California considers it a motor vehicle. I have no idea about licensing requirements, however. Of course in Massachusetts it may be a different story (I'm guessing that MBTA's trolleybuses don't carry license plates).
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 25, 2011 12:35:51 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by ieko on Apr 25, 2011 12:39:44 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 25, 2011 13:12:19 GMT -8
I took some video of this bus last summer at the launch event. Nice 360 walkaround!
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Apr 25, 2011 13:29:53 GMT -8
That's interesting, as at SF Muni, the trolleybuses have license plates, same as the diesel buses, which leads me to believe that the state of California considers it a motor vehicle. I have no idea about licensing requirements, however. Of course in Massachusetts it may be a different story (I'm guessing that MBTA's trolleybuses don't carry license plates). Right, no license plates, just the vehicle number painted on somewhere. Basically, every law about "motor vehicles" doesnt apply to streetcars or trolley buses over there, although "company" policy does require following some of them (ie, drivers must have a license, even though the law doesnt require it)
|
|
|
Post by thanks4goingmetro on Apr 25, 2011 21:20:00 GMT -8
Trolleybuses don't really improve any of the public transit experience. When I rode them in San Francisco they were late and bumpy just like diesel or CNG powered buses. But they don't add to the pollution like diesel or CNG (production is very dirty). I think the big difference between battery electric buses and battery electric cars is the virtue of public transportation, right? Buses will transport more people with the lithium and rare earth materials than the same used to build a Toyota Prius, Chevy Volt, or Nissan Leaf. All in all BEV buses are worth a shot. Generally range is a primary concern for personal transport but in the case of public transit the instant low end torque, zero emissions, regardless of the limited range (liquid fueled buses get single digit mileage) it seems like a natural fit.
|
|
|
Post by thanks4goingmetro on Apr 25, 2011 21:30:00 GMT -8
Foothill Transit has three prototype battery-electric buses made by Proterra. Here's a video of one that was on display at the AQMD on Wednesday. (Couldn't get the embedded video tag to work.) I saw that Foothill Transit had one of these guys last year for testing on a tough route with a high amount of disabled riders. They are rolling more of these out?
|
|
|
Post by transitfan on Apr 26, 2011 6:14:01 GMT -8
Nice pics, Darrell. I wonder why Foothill apparently skipped over the F1900 series.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 26, 2011 8:09:33 GMT -8
Trolleybuses don't really improve any of the public transit experience. When I rode them in San Francisco they were late and bumpy just like diesel or CNG powered buses. I far prefer the experience of riding a trolley bus, without the noise and vibration of a big engine in the rear. True, acceleration can still be a bit jerky, and potholes in the street have their jolts.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 26, 2011 11:26:50 GMT -8
Trolleybuses don't...add to the pollution like diesel or CNG (production is very dirty). CNG=Compressed Natural Gas, i.e. it occurs naturally. NG comes out of the ground nearly all methane and removing the contaminants isn't "very dirty". Where'd you get that? And besides our non-nuclear power plants in California are also fueled by natural gas. The same natural gas that goes into buses. That is when we aren't getting our electricity off the grid in which case it's mostly from dirtier coal-fired power plants. Also sorry Metro (not you t4gm, LA Metro), but modern diesel buses with filters are cleaner than CNG buses. Strange but true. They also don't exhaust significant concentrations of carcinogenic aldehydes like CNG.
|
|
|
Post by rubbertoe on Apr 26, 2011 11:38:09 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 26, 2011 12:29:18 GMT -8
That's pretty clean compared to manufacturing diesel or hydrogen and still doesn't explain why the natural gas used to make electricity would be cleaner.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Apr 26, 2011 17:23:59 GMT -8
Trolleybuses don't really improve any of the public transit experience. When I rode them in San Francisco they were late and bumpy just like diesel or CNG powered buses. But they don't add to the pollution like diesel or CNG (production is very dirty). I think the big difference between battery electric buses and battery electric cars is the virtue of public transportation, right? Buses will transport more people with the lithium and rare earth materials than the same used to build a Toyota Prius, Chevy Volt, or Nissan Leaf. All in all BEV buses are worth a shot. Generally range is a primary concern for personal transport but in the case of public transit the instant low end torque, zero emissions, regardless of the limited range (liquid fueled buses get single digit mileage) it seems like a natural fit. Trolley buses are obviously much quieter than diesel buses, cleaner, less smelly, have faster acceleration, and can do better on hills. And unlike a streetcar, they can go around obstacles. Usually the wire is placed between two lanes, so the trolleybus can go in either one.
|
|