Walnut St ROW - Why wasn't it used?

[jdrcrasher]

To me, this is one of the biggest mysteries of the Gold Line Foothill corridor.

BTW, for those of you who don't know, this rail ROW runs along Walnut St in East Pasadena, just south of the 210, between Wilson Ave and Kinneloa Ave.

Anyway, instead of utilizing this abandoned ROW that seems to run through a dense neighborhood, Metro built the Gold Line in the median of the 210 freeway in this section, between the Lake and Sierra Madre Villa stations.

I mean I know it would've added, at most, two stations, likely at Hill Ave and Sierra Madre Blvd. It's just that it seems like a wasted opportunity, and in my opinion, the existing Allen station never made sense.

Any thoughts on this guys?

[crzwdjk]

I think that ROW was abandoned quite a while ago, possibly when the freeway was built, and the rail line relocated into the freeway median. If you look closely, the old alignment diverges from the new one around Wilson Avenue, where they would have needed to build a flyover to bring the tracks from freeway level to street level. It also looks like this section of the ROW was built over by the time the Gold Line was being built, so there would have had to have been some eminent domain takings. Plus of course the Walnut St ROW would have had many more crossings. I think the freeway ROW was chosen as the expedient route, since that's where the Santa Fe tracks were at the time, since it would involve no grade crossings, and because it was probably much cheaper to do it that way.

[Gokhan]

As crzwdjk explained this section was probably virtually got rid of when the 210 freeway built. It would be very difficult to get from the freeway median back to this ROW and from this ROW back to the freeway, as you would have to build two new flyovers. They must have decided that it would be much better to put the freight tracks in the freeway median when they built it.

So, the freeway gets in the way of this ROW in two places, which makes it pretty much useless. Also, it's at least partly built on and/or leased.

[James Fujita]

unfortunately, I think we're coming to an end of the era of re-using ROWs.

I like the old PE ROWs and old freight lines like the Harbor Sub through the middle of Torrance because they are frequently easier to build and they do cut quick, off-street paths through neighborhoods.

but we have to admit that not every ROW is a buried gem. there are some old ROWs which we are never going to be able to recover — built over, or turned into a park or sliced into segments too small to be useful or practical.
I hadn't heard of it until just now (I made a quick visit to Google Maps), but it sounds like Walnut Street belongs to this category.

[bobdavis]

Yes, the old Santa Fe right of way was mostly abandoned when the line was rerouted to the 210 median. For some years an industrial spur was maintained from Chapman just west of the current terminal to the Davis Lumber yard at Walnut & Allen, but this is long gone. As a one-time Santa Fe employee who rode the #23 train from San Bernardino to Pasadena on occasion, I remember the many wig-wag protected grade crossings between Arcadia and the Pasadena depot. Trains were restricted to (as I recall) 25 mph in the City of Pasadena, and west of Allen, the tracks ran through residential neighborhoods. I can imagine the NIMBY complaints if the tracks still ran on the old route and Metro wanted to build the light rail line there. Like South Pasadena, only worse. There were proposals during the early planning stages to have what became the Gold Line to run the tracks along Colorado Blvd or along Green St. and Union St., but these ideas were quickly discarded; the Blue Line has proved that street running is to be avoided if at all possible.

[jdrcrasher]

Yeah, I know that two aerial structures would be needed to get off and on the freeway median. It's just think that it might have been worth the cost to build the 2 miles, especially if it was at-grade.

[crzwdjk]

You wouldn't need an aerial structure on the east end, as there's a single-track tunnel (I think still in place, even) going from the median, crossing under the eastbound freeway lines and connecting to the ROW along Walnut.

[James Fujita]

May 15, 2011 17:41:46 GMT -8 jdrcrasher said:

Yeah, I know that two aerial structures would be needed to get off and on the freeway median. It's just think that it might have been worth the cost to build the 2 miles, especially if it was at-grade.

I'm not a huge fan of freeway median ROWs (or more specifically, I'm not a huge fan of freeway stations), but I do recognize that freeway speed is nothing to be scoffed at. The Gold Line freeway stations have their advantages.

At the same time, I also think that at-grade ROWs need to justify their existence as well. At-grade can be slower, it can require more measures to protect people from themselves. These can be major obstacles to overcome.

I'm not sure Walnut would have been worth the effort.

[carter]

May 17, 2011 23:49:13 GMT -8 James Fujita said:

May 15, 2011 17:41:46 GMT -8 jdrcrasher said:

Yeah, I know that two aerial structures would be needed to get off and on the freeway median. It's just think that it might have been worth the cost to build the 2 miles, especially if it was at-grade.

I'm not a huge fan of freeway median ROWs (or more specifically, I'm not a huge fan of freeway stations), but I do recognize that freeway speed is nothing to be scoffed at. The Gold Line freeway stations have their advantages.

At the same time, I also think that at-grade ROWs need to justify their existence as well. At-grade can be slower, it can require more measures to protect people from themselves. These can be major obstacles to overcome.

I'm not sure Walnut would have been worth the effort.

Especially considering that east of Pasadena, this becomes more of a high speed, wide stop spacing commuter style service.

[bobdavis]

The new section from Arcadia to Azusa will have station spacings averaging 1.6 miles, definitely more like suburban-electric, indeed, they are comparable to the outer section of the Metra Electric (former Illinois Central suburban) service in Chicago. More stops would be desirable, but the stations of today are so much more elaborate than they were in the Red Car era that they can't be as frequent as we might like.

[jdrcrasher]

Guys, all i'm saying is that the Allen Station location is a joke (especially compared to Sierra Madre Villa) , and a station via the Walnut ROW at Sierra Madre Blvd might have been worth the cost.