fredcamino
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Los Angeles Public Transit Lifestyle
Posts: 28
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Post by fredcamino on Sept 13, 2008 20:34:28 GMT -8
I'm in full agreement with spokker. Whether or not it becomes apparent that texting was the cause, the fact that a train engineer responsible for safely operating heavy expensive machinery and hundreds of lives could be goddamn texting behind the wheels is really scary to me.
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Post by Justin Walker on Sept 13, 2008 22:39:16 GMT -8
Much of what has been said about this incident doesn't seem to add up. Metrolink has said that it was their engineer's fault and that he ran the red signal at CP Topanga.
Red signals don't appear randomly in front of trains. A red signal (i.e. a "Stop" indication) must be preceded by a signal indicating an "Approach" indication, (i.e. a yellow signal). A Yellow signal is in turn preceded by an "Advanced Approach" signal (i.e. a flashing yellow signal).
For this event to have been caused by operator error, the engineer would have to have not noticed the flashing yellow signal, the yellow signal, or the red signal, an incredibly unlikely situation.
Furthermore, as the Metrolink train started from a complete stop at the Chatsworth station, the engineer had a 4000 ft straight-stretch to view a red signal at CP Topanga. At the train's slow starting speeds, this distance would have taken at least 60-70 seconds. At some point during that long period of time, the engineer would have seen and reacted to a red signal if there had been one.
Decisive evidence will come from the dispatchers. Did Metrolink #111 call out a green signal at CP Topanga?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2008 3:25:52 GMT -8
You are right, Justin Walker, that this doesn't add up. From the witness reports, the Metrolink train apparently never braked before the collision. This doesn't make sense. If this is really the case, here are some wild speculations:
* The Metrolink engineer had an heart attack.
* The Metrolink train was hijacked at the point where it stopped to change from double- to single-track, a quarter mile away from the collision site. Remember that this incident took place only a day after 9/11 and we are less than two months away from elections and there is a chance that this could be an act of terrorism as well.
* The Metrolink engineer committed suicide.
We will certainly know more when the black boxes and UP dash cam are analyzed. But, in any case, I suspect that the answer will be quite disturbing, whether this is negligence, human error, or foul play.
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Post by wad on Sept 14, 2008 5:02:12 GMT -8
I have a feeling that the lawsuits from this accident will shut down Metrolink for good.
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Post by spokker on Sept 14, 2008 8:46:17 GMT -8
You are right, Justin Walker, that this doesn't add up. From the witness reports, the Metrolink train apparently never braked before the collision. This doesn't make sense. If this is really the case, here are some wild speculations: I've heard reports of a second freight train from the grassy knoll. |
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Post by damiengoodmon on Sept 14, 2008 11:06:43 GMT -8
wad, Having read you in the past, I'm assuming that you think the personal injury/wrongful death lawsuits themselves won't bankrupt Metrolink, but rather the required track modifications/system upgrades to a service that is basically built to run on the cheap, will be too much for Metrolink to handle? Either way lets hope it doesn't shut down Metrolink, but instead leads to a true no-holds-barred system-wide analysis by non-binding unbiased experts of Metrolink, it's policies, systems, and funding allocations and recommendations to implement both short-term/immediate (1-2 year) modifications, and the adoption of a long-term plan (15-25 year). Too much in this region is about expanding quickly, instead expanding wisely or fixing what we currently have. This is in large part because a lot of inaccurate information is put out and poor political decision that have been made in the past and continue to be made today. Everyone should be skeptical of the way Metrolink has been quick to blame the engineer and a text message. The "lonely gunman" theory is a political move to avoid in-depth investigations that almost always lead to a lot of politicians being called out and high-level bureaucrats losing their jobs. As my good friend Professor Meshkati has said, we can't allow this to be the end of the debate. Commuters will return, but business as usual can't: Najmedin Meshkati, an engineering professor at USC, urges officials to get on track with rail safety in this state.
Meshkati arrived at the crash site Saturday morning, armed with a notepad and a raging curiosity to understand this tragedy.
Railroad safety, he told me, is based on what he calls the HOT principle: human, organizational and technological factors working together to prevent accidents. If all three fail, it’s like pieces of Swiss cheese when all the holes line up.
It’s not enough to blame human error every time, he said. How, he asks, did the organization and technology fail? |
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2008 11:11:55 GMT -8
You are right, Justin Walker, that this doesn't add up. From the witness reports, the Metrolink train apparently never braked before the collision. This doesn't make sense. If this is really the case, here are some wild speculations: I've heard reports of a second freight train from the grassy knoll. The visibility seems very tight around that blind curve, and it could be that the Metrolink engineer was playing with his cell phone at that time. A distraction for ten seconds would leave him no time to brake. But, on the other hand, there is a good chance that something else happened or went wrong as well. It's very strange that he would miss three signals in a row and then fail to brake when the freight train appears. Even the passengers saw the freight train but somehow the engineer didn't. So, expect some startling discovery, one way or the other, when the NTSB releases the black-box data and freight-train dash-cam video. |
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Post by damiengoodmon on Sept 14, 2008 11:22:09 GMT -8
This may very well be the reason Metrolink spokesmen have been quick to blame the engineer ( link): "We don't know how the error happened," [Metrolink spokeswoman Denise Tyrrell] continued, "but this is what we believe happened. We believe it was our engineer who failed to stop at the signal."
Tyrrell said Metrolink determined the cause by reviewing dispatch records and computers.
She said the engineer worked for a subcontractor, Veolia, used by Metrolink since 1998, but had driven Metrolink trains since 1996. |
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 14, 2008 12:14:13 GMT -8
Either way lets hope it doesn't shut down Metrolink, but instead leads to a true no-holds-barred system-wide analysis by non-binding unbiased experts of Metrolink, it's policies, systems, and funding allocations and recommendations to implement both short-term/immediate (1-2 year) modifications, and the adoption of a long-term plan (15-25 year). I couldn't agree more. This system needs to implement better controls, as a matter of both policy and funding priority. A tragedy of this magnitude should never have happened. |
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vnc
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Post by vnc on Sept 14, 2008 12:26:00 GMT -8
This Incident will have a big impact on the entire Railroad Industry. Not Just here in the Los Angeles Area. Remember. Much of the Railroad Lines in this Country are similar to the old SP Coast Line Route. And in order to get more Safety Measures in Place here. You would need Congress to act and pass laws for the Railroad Industry. California can only do so much.
Also. Veolia/Connex started operating Metrolink trains in June of 2006. Amtrak had been running Metrolink's Trains from October 1992 til when Connex took under. Connex then became Veolia after the change over. I know many of the Engineers and Conductors on these Metrolink Trains. I always saw many on the Coast Starlight, Sunset Limited, Pacific Surfliner Routes up til Metrolink changed the Contract. Many of these Engineers and Conductors had to quit working for Amtrak and went to Connex/Veolia.
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vnc
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Post by vnc on Sept 14, 2008 15:49:44 GMT -8
As of 4:45pm. The two Metrolink Cars involved with friday's Accident. Are now being tow away. As I type this out
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Post by bluelineshawn on Sept 14, 2008 16:17:49 GMT -8
As of 4:45pm. The two Metrolink Trains involved with friday's Accident. Are now being tow away. As I type this out I think that you mean the 2+ cars from one train. Unless you mean the Metrolink and UP trains. Or the Metrolink train from Corona and the Metrolink train from Chatsworth. |
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vnc
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Post by vnc on Sept 14, 2008 17:31:17 GMT -8
As of 4:45pm. The two Metrolink Trains involved with friday's Accident. Are now being tow away. As I type this out I think that you mean the 2+ cars from one train. Unless you mean the Metrolink and UP trains. Or the Metrolink train from Corona and the Metrolink train from Chatsworth. I mean the two cars from The Iccident in Chatsworth. Will make the correction |
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2008 18:11:11 GMT -8
By MICHAEL BLOOD, Associated Press Writer
52 minutes ago
LOS ANGELES - A dispatcher tried to warn the engineer of a Metrolink commuter train that he was about to collide with a freight train but the call came too late, rail officials investigating the crash that killed 25 people said Sunday.
The dispatcher reached the conductor in the rear of the train, but by then it had already crashed into the oncoming Union Pacific engine at 40 mph, Metrolink officials said.
The engineer was killed in the accident, the nation's deadliest rail disaster in 15 years.
Metrolink said the engineer ran a red signal, but federal investigators said it could be a year before they determine a cause.
The National Transportation Safety Board said Sunday it was looking into a report that the engineer may have been text messaging around the time of the crash.
Two days after the crash, men wearing green and orange safety vests walked up and down the tracks Sunday in an early morning fog, while others snapped pictures and climbed inside the wrecked shell of the front passenger car.
A teenager told CBS2-TV that he had exchanged a brief text message with the engineer shortly before the crash. The Los Angeles station said the teen was among a group of youths who befriended the engineer and asked him questions about his work. The station showed an interview of the teen holding a cell phone with a text message apparently signed by the engineer and dated 4:22 p.m. Friday, shortly before the crash.
Metrolink spokeswoman Denise Tyrrell said before the report aired that she would find it "unbelievable" that an engineer would be text messaging while operating a train.
NTSB spokesman Terry Williams said he couldn't confirm reports that the engineer, whose name was not released, had been text messaging.
"We're going to look into that, anything that can help us find the cause of this accident," he said.
Earlier, NTSB member Kitty Higgins said similar reports in other accident investigations turned out to be inaccurate "so I want to be very, very careful about it."
Some 135 were injured in the crash.
Dr. Marc Eckstein, medical director for the Los Angeles Fire Department, said survivors' injuries included partially severed limbs and legs flayed to the bone. At least two survivors had to be extricated from underneath dead bodies and six victims were discovered under the train Saturday, he said.
"There were bodies cut in half, and I could see torsos sticking out. It was pretty horrific," Eckstein said. "The bodies were entwined with the wreckage. "
Eckstein said all rescue personnel were required to check in with a staff psychologist before leaving the scene — but many, including himself, preferred to deal privately with what they saw.
"All you can do is go home and hug your wife and kids, I guess," he said. "These people were regular working people like you and I and headed home looking forward to a weekend with their families — and they're dead in an instant."
Rescue crews recovered two data recorders Saturday from the Metrolink train and one data recorder and one video recorder from the freight train. The video has pictures from forward-looking cameras and the data recorders have information on speed, braking patterns and whether the horn was used.
Families of victims struggled with their loss after the coroner's office released a partial list of the names of the dead. Among them was a Los Angeles police officer and a city employee who was believed to work in the general services office, said Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa.
Spree Desha, 35, had worked for the Police Department for seven years and spent much of her career training new officers. She had been honored 34 times for performance and professional qualities.
"She sat in the first train (car) as a matter of practice, in uniform, so if someone came on the train and made trouble, she was ready to help out," Assistant Chief Jim McDonnell said. "That was just the way she did business."
Larry Remata, 58, said he was in Hawaii visiting his 100-year-old mother and rushed home when he got news that his wife, Donna, was among the dead.
"Right now, I am grieving. It is starting to hit me a little bit. Especially seeing her name in the newspaper — it hurt me more," he said.
There were no new reports of fatalities from hospitals Sunday, and the scene was cleared of bodies, said Lt. Cheryl MacWillie of the county coroner's office.
The collision occurred on a horseshoe-shaped section of track in Chatsworth at the west end of the San Fernando Valley, near a 500-foot-long tunnel underneath Stoney Point Park. There is a siding at one end of the tunnel where one train can wait for another to pass, Tyrrell said.
At a news conference late Saturday, the NTSB's Higgins said it was too early to determine what caused the crash but noted that a pair of switches that control whether a train goes onto the siding were open. One of them should have been closed, Higgins said.
"The indication is that it was forced open," possibly by the Metrolink train, Higgins said.
The commuter train, heading from Union Station in downtown Los Angeles to Ventura County, was carrying 220 passengers, one engineer and one conductor when it collided with the Union Pacific freight, which had a crew of three. The impact rammed the Metrolink engine backward, jamming it deep into the first passenger car.
It was the deadliest passenger train crash since Sept. 22, 1993, when Amtrak's Sunset Limited plunged off a trestle into a bayou near Mobile, Ala., moments after the trestle was damaged by a towboat; 47 people were killed.
Associated Press writers Thomas Watkins, Amy Taxin, Daisy Nguyen, Christina Hoag, Greg Risling, Justin Pritchard, James Beltran, John Rogers and Gillian Flaccus contributed to this report.
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Post by spokker on Sept 14, 2008 19:19:36 GMT -8
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Post by nickv on Sept 14, 2008 20:15:44 GMT -8
NCTD Coaster Trains are currently equipped with this technology. Although it will not totally solve red light running issues, it will reduce the chances of a horrible wreck, let alone head-on collisions.
If a NCTD train engineer fails to stop at a red light, the system will stop the train automatically. The train dispatcher is also automatically notified. Also, NCTD policy prohibits cell phone use while operating a train.
Blood Donations Update: 9:08PM 9/14
Calls are being made for blood donations, in the wake of Friday's Metrolink crash in Chatsworth.
The American Red Cross says blood donors are needed following that accident, to help victims directly and replenish blood supplies. Any person 17 years or older -- 16 if accompanied by a parent -- and weighing at least 110 pounds is eligible to donate blood. Eligible donors are asked to schedule an appointment to donate by calling 1-800-GIVE LIFE or by visiting www.GiveLife.org.
The UCLA Blood and Platelet Center was taking blood donations from 8 a.m.-1 p.m. on Saturday, from healthy donors of all blood types. Donors can also make future appointments by calling (310) 794-7217. |
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Post by Transit Coalition on Sept 14, 2008 20:30:52 GMT -8
TRAC, Transit Coalition and RailPAC members and all our associates in the rail advocacy community offer our condolences, prayers and best wishes to the injured survivors, their families and the families of the deceased. No words can describe your feelings, just know that we are thinking of you and are deeply sympathetic.
“TRAC and Transit Coalition and RailPAC members will continue to work for better and safer passenger rail options for California.”
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2008 0:20:44 GMT -8
This still makes no sense. Why would the engineer confirm the flashing yellow light and then run the solid yellow and solid red? Why didn't he brake at all but hit the freight train with full speed?
By AMY TAXIN, Associated Press Writer
31 minutes ago
LOS ANGELES - Federal investigators said Sunday that audio recordings from a commuter train are missing required verbal safety checks between the engineer and the conductor in the seconds before the train collided with a freight engine, killing 25 people.
The recordings, obtained by the National Transportation Safety Board from the Metrolink dispatch center, show the engineer and conductor called out and confirmed light signals along the route, but the tapes are missing that call-and-response for the last two lights the train passed just before the fiery wreck, said Kitty Higgins, an NTSB board member.
Investigators also determined Sunday that the train failed to stop at the final red signal, which forced the train onto a track where the Union Pacific freight was traveling in the opposite direction, Higgins said at a news conference. The announcement confirmed earlier statements by Metrolink spokeswoman Denise Tyrrell, who said Saturday that the engineer ran the red signal and caused the accident.
NTSB experts are also planning to review the cell phone records of two teenagers and the engineer, who died in the crash, after the teens had told CBS2-TV that they received a text message from the engineer at 4:22 p.m. Friday. The wreck happened moments later.
Higgins said, however, that her agency was not yet ruling out any possible causes of the collision. She said usually an investigation of a train crash takes a year.
"There's a lot of things. In any accident I've been involved in, it's never one factor. I call it the perfect storm. We work hard not to jump to conclusions," Higgins said.
The crash on Friday was the nation's worst rail disaster in 15 years. In addition to the 25 people killed, 135 were injured, many critically, when the Metrolink train carrying 220 passengers barreled into a Union Pacific freight train north of Los Angeles.
Higgins said the conductor and the engineer were required to call out signals to each other as the train moved, but there was silence on the audio recordings as the train passed first a solid yellow light and then the final red beacon.
The pair had correctly called the light just prior to those two, a flashing yellow light, or approach signal.
"We don't have any recording of a callout or confirmation for those last two signals," she said.
She cautioned, however, that the train may have entered a dead zone where the recording was interrupted.
Higgins said the NTSB would measure the distance between points along the track on Monday.
She said investigators also wanted to speak with the conductor, who was injured, about the recording.
"He'll be able to tell us whether he recalls the engineer calling out and him confirming those signals," she said.
Higgins said experts still must examine whether the signal was working properly and were in the Metrolink engineer's line of sight. Investigators will also review data to ensure the signals were fully operational.
However, she stressed that obeying signals on the track was an engineer's responsibility at the helm of a train.
"My understanding is it is very unusual for an experienced engineer to run a red light," she said.
Metrolink said earlier Sunday that a dispatcher tried to warn the engineer of the commuter train that he was about to collide with a freight train but the call came too late. The dispatcher reached the conductor in the rear of the train, but by then it had already crashed into the oncoming Union Pacific train, Metrolink officials said.
However, the NTSB contradicted Metrolink's report. Higgins said that the dispatcher noticed something was wrong, but before he could contact the train, the conductor — who survived — called in to report the wreck.
Higgins said she believed the crash could have been prevented with technology that stops a train on the track when a signal is disobeyed. The technology, known as Positive Train Control, is not in place where the collision occurred.
"I believe this technology could have prevented the accident. If he ran the signal the train would have been stopped. I've seen it tested. It makes a difference," she said.
Rescue crews recovered two data recorders Saturday from the Metrolink train and one data recorder and one video recorder from the freight train. The video has pictures from forward-looking cameras and the data recorders have information on speed, braking patterns and whether the horn was used.
Two days after the crash, men wearing green and orange safety vests walked up and down the tracks Sunday in an early morning fog, while others snapped pictures and climbed inside the wrecked shell of the front passenger car.
There were no new reports of fatalities from hospitals Sunday, and the scene was cleared of bodies, said Lt. Cheryl MacWillie of the county coroner's office. Two more victims were identified, leaving only two whose names have not been released pending notification of kin.
The collision occurred on a horseshoe-shaped section of track in Chatsworth at the west end of the San Fernando Valley, near a 500-foot-long tunnel underneath Stoney Point Park. There is a siding at one end of the tunnel where one train can wait for another to pass, Tyrrell said.
The commuter train was heading from downtown Los Angeles to Ventura County. The impact rammed the Metrolink engine backward, jamming it deep into the first passenger car.
It was the deadliest passenger train crash since Sept. 22, 1993, when Amtrak's Sunset Limited plunged off a trestle into a bayou near Mobile, Ala., moments after the trestle was damaged by a towboat; 47 people were killed.
Associated Press writers Thomas Watkins, Michael Blood, Daisy Nguyen, Christina Hoag, Greg Risling, Justin Pritchard, James Beltran, John Rogers, Shaya Mohajer and Gillian Flaccus contributed to this report.
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Post by Justin Walker on Sept 15, 2008 0:52:42 GMT -8
I can't imagine he didn't call out anything at the yellow at Lassen, made a perfectly normal routine stop at Chatsworth, and then called out nothing at Topanga. This off-on-off behavior, I agree, makes no sense.
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Post by wad on Sept 15, 2008 4:46:42 GMT -8
wad, Having read you in the past, I'm assuming that you think the personal injury/wrongful death lawsuits themselves won't bankrupt Metrolink, but rather the required track modifications/system upgrades to a service that is basically built to run on the cheap, will be too much for Metrolink to handle? I mean it is the one-two punch of these two factors. It's a given that SCRRA is being sued. It will have to pay two different costs: 1. Torts, which would be settlements or judgments against it that would be paid to the victims and survivors of the deceased in compensation and punitive damages. 2. Remediation, which is what Metrolink would have to pay or to do prevent all future occurences of this type of accident. The torts alone would be enough to sink the agency. A similar parallel would be how many Roman Catholic dioceses have to pay out in the wave of the molestation cases this decade. In order to pay the plaintiffs, the money is being exhausted from insurance and then from sales of real estate as well as closure of services. The compensatory damages to the survivors, injured victims, as well as for losses to Union Pacific and nearby property owners in Chatsworth, are likely to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Metrolink's insurance is not going to be able to cover the expenses. Then comes remediation. This will be guaranteed to close it down. These are costs Metrolink has to pay to the general community to ensure there will not be a repeat of this behavior. The most mild form would be to pay for improvements in the immediate area of the accident. The most extreme form would be to make the most state-of-the-art improvements throughout the entire system. If SCRRA finds that it cannot fulfill any of these commitments, legal counsel would advise the board to dissolve the agency and liquidate assets. Damien, I am not going to say that Metrolink is running a system on the cheap deliberately or with malice. I do think, though, that Metrolink's fate as an entity is almost certain to be sealed with this crash. |
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Post by Justin Walker on Sept 15, 2008 7:19:15 GMT -8
"Damien, I am not going to say that Metrolink is running a system on the cheap deliberately or with malice. I do think, though, that Metrolink's fate as an entity is almost certain to be sealed with this crash."
Mental exercise: Can you imagine the position Metrolink would have been in if this accident involved push mode? That would have been the end. But with the accident as it happened, I doubt it.
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Post by erict on Sept 15, 2008 7:27:20 GMT -8
The National Transportation Safety Board has previously urged the Federal Railroad Administration to require systems that could override human error, but the FRA does not require such a system to be in place and the NTSB has no authority in the matter.
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Post by spokker on Sept 15, 2008 7:35:40 GMT -8
Bart, take down that Metrolink Max page. It's over, boys.
I hope our new commuter transit agency has a better name than Metrolink. It's seems so generic. Maybe OCTA can still run the trains in Orange County. Maybe.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2008 8:32:40 GMT -8
Latest details. I would believe the defective-signal theory if the Metrolink engineer had at least attempted to brake. It takes less than 400 ft to stop at 40 MPH. But the train apparently didn't slow a bit before it hit the freight train. I doubt it was suicide, the engineer being a railfan, who wouldn't take all these passengers with him. I still think it could be that the engineer had an heart attack or the train was hijacked at the Chatsworth Station. The former would lead to automatic train-control systems, and the latter would not only lead to automatic train-control systems but also to the unpleasant security and mood of the post 9/11 air travel, this being the Version 9/12 of that.
Investigators focus on whether signal was broken or missed
Brian Vander Brug / Los Angeles Times
Federal officials rebuke Metrolink for assigning fault too soon. Service may resume late today.
By Louis Sahagun, Scott Glover and Ted Rohrlich, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
September 15, 2008
Federal officials investigating Friday's fatal Metrolink train crash focused Sunday on whether a signal that should have alerted the engineer to stop the train was working properly, and whether it went unheeded.
National Transportation Safety Board member Kitty Higgins said a computer reading indicated the last signal before the collision site was displaying a red light. But she said investigators wanted to make sure it wasn't a false reading.
Higgins criticized Metrolink for saying Saturday that an engineer had been at fault for failing to heed the red signal, causing the crash with a Union Pacific freight train that so far has claimed 25 lives and left 135 injured, 40 critically.
"I don't know on what basis Metrolink made that statement. We really work very hard not to jump to conclusions," Higgins said at a Sunday news conference in Woodland Hills.
The conflict between the agencies surfaced as authorities pulled apart the wreckage in an attempt to clear the tracks in Chatsworth and restore service by this evening, and hundreds of grieving friends and relatives of the dead gathered to pray in Simi Valley, the train's destination.
The train passed four signals between De Soto Avenue and Nashville Street that, if working correctly, would have flashed yellow or red to warn the engineer to slow and stop.
The engineer, stationed at the front of the train, and conductor, stationed at the back, customarily call each other to repeat signals seen by the engineer, Higgins said. Officials have listened to recordings and found no indication that the engineer and conductor exchanged information on the last two signals, one of which should have been flashing yellow and the other red. The investigators were unsure whether "dead zones" might have interfered with such communication.
Higgins also disclosed that the Metrolink train "blew through" a switch controlling a junction with a railroad siding closest to the accident site. A data recorder said the Metrolink train was traveling at 42 mph when it passed the switch.
NTSB officials have interviewed a Metrolink dispatcher based in Pomona who said he had set up the signals and the switch so that the Union Pacific freighter and the Metrolink train could pass without incident. But Higgins disputed a Metrolink assertion that the dispatcher had tried to contact the train about a potential collision course, a message that allegedly arrived too late.
"By the time the dispatcher realized there was something wrong, the accident had already occurred," Higgins said. She added that the conductor, who was seriously injured, called the dispatcher to notify him of the accident. The conductor had not been interviewed by her agency, she added.
A Metrolink spokesman earlier Sunday gave a different account, saying that a Metrolink dispatcher had been alerted to the potential crash by a computer signal and tried to warn the engineer that he was about to collide with a freight train. The spokesman said the dispatcher reached the conductor after the crash had occurred.
Metrolink officials said they expected regular service on the Los Angeles-Ventura County line to resume in time for evening rush hour today and made plans to ferry passengers by bus between Ventura County and Chatsworth until then.
Regular riders on the route said the Metrolink train heading toward Simi Valley often stopped at the junction to wait for a Union Pacific freight train headed toward downtown Los Angeles to switch to the siding.
There are four signals leading up to the crash site: at De Soto Avenue, where the siding begins; at Lassen Street; at the platform at the Chatsworth station; and near Nashville Street, where the siding converges with the main line again.
If they were functioning properly, the early signals would have been yellow or red and the final one, red.
Higgins said investigators are awaiting toxicology reports on the engineer, which should be available in two to three weeks.
A union representing 125,000 rail workers -- though not those who work for Metrolink -- on Sunday said Metrolink's decision to blame the engineer was "terribly premature."
A union spokesman noted that the engineer, who died in the crash, might have been disabled by a heart attack or stroke. The engineer had at least 10 years of experience. He had worked for Amtrak and more recently for a private firm, Veolia Transportation, that provides Metrolink with engineers. The Simi Valley-bound Metrolink train he drove Friday was carrying 225 passengers when it collided with the Union Pacific freight train descending into the San Fernando Valley.
Authorities Sunday also released the names of two previously unidentified victims: Ronald G. Grace, 55, and Roger Spacey, 60, both of Simi Valley.
With NTSB investigators looking on late Sunday afternoon, a Metrolink locomotive towed away two passenger cars that were not severely damaged, while workers with blow torches began dismantling a severely damaged passenger car and the engine of the ill-fated train. Workers had already removed the Union Pacific freight train. Metrolink spokeswoman Denise Tyrrell said that after the wreckage was removed, the agency would have to repair about 1,000 feet of track.
Friday's crash boosted Metrolink's fatality record to one of the worst in the nation, records show.
But Keith Millhouse, vice chairman of Metrolink's board of directors and a Moorpark city councilman, said "statistics don't tell the story." He noted that the deadliest previous crash in Metrolink history was not the line's fault. A Los Angeles jury convicted a former Compton laborer of parking his truck on the track, triggering the 2005 wreck that killed 11 people and injured at least 180 others. Millhouse said other fatal incidents had involved suicides or trespassing cases and were not Metrolink's fault.
He said he still had confidence in the line. "I will be on the train first thing tomorrow morning to show people I have faith in the system," he said Sunday.
The process of identifying those killed and notifying relatives of the dead is ongoing, according to the Los Angeles County coroner's office. By late Sunday, the names of 23 people killed in the crash had been released. Friends and relatives of the injured waited for news.
KCBS reported Saturday that several teenage train aficionados said they had received a text message from the engineer shortly before the crash. The NTSB said it was treating the report with caution, noting that similar accounts had circulated after a crash in Boston but were found to be inaccurate.
"We've heard reports to that effect, but we have nothing to confirm," said Higgins of the NTSB.
A woman who identified herself as the mother of one of the teenagers, but asked that her name not be used to protect her 14-year-old son's privacy, said that he and some of his friends often rode the Metrolink train on Friday afternoons and had become friendly with the engineer. Investigators had spoken to some of them, she said.
"They knew the engineer very well," she said Sunday, "and they are mourning the loss of this gentleman. They all aspire to be engineers."
Authorities have not yet identified the engineer.
But officials said he was certified specifically on the L.A.-to-Simi Valley route, his regular assignment, and was familiar with signal locations.
The Union Pacific freight train and the 3:35 p.m. Metrolink train out of Union Station routinely passed each other near Chatsworth.
About 800 people gathered Sunday night in Simi Valley for a prayer service at Grace Brethren Church. When pastors asked those with friends or relatives among the dead to stand, about one third of those in attendance rose. "We are a grieving community tonight," said one of the pastors, Paul Kuzma of New Heart Church.
"We are a community whose hearts are crying and a community whose mind can't wrap around the terrible things that happened."
louis.sahagun@latimes.com
scott.glover@latimes.com
ted.rohrlich@latimes.com
Times staff writer Catherine Saillant contributed to this story from Simi Valley
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Post by wrcousert on Sept 15, 2008 10:56:48 GMT -8
Bart, take down that Metrolink Max page. It's over, boys. I hope our new commuter transit agency has a better name than Metrolink. It's seems so generic. Maybe OCTA can still run the trains in Orange County. Maybe. OCTA had their own commuter rail service before Metrolink started up. I think they had two trains to L.A. in the morning and two returning trains in the afternoon. |
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Post by wrcousert on Sept 15, 2008 11:16:02 GMT -8
I have a feeling that the lawsuits from this accident will shut down Metrolink for good. I think they may be planning on a shutdown. Take a look at their site www.metrolinktrains.com/The main site is shut down. All they have is information about the crash. |
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2008 11:35:24 GMT -8
Metrolink will not shut down. In fact they are are repairing the 1000-ft-long section of the tracks in the accident site right now and will resume the train service on the Ventura Line at 3 PM this afternoon.
We still don't know what happened. It could be an heart attack, terrorism, or similar misfortune, which could only have been prevented by an automatic train-control system.
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Post by jejozwik on Sept 15, 2008 11:42:48 GMT -8
I think they may be planning on a shutdown. Take a look at their site www.metrolinktrains.com/The main site is shut down. All they have is information about the crash. the site has been in that state since 6pm on friday. around 4.3o the site was unresponsive and would not bring a page up. around 5 or 5.3o the emergency page went up. this in no way means metrolink is dead. what people here were eluding to is that with the potential lawsuits from 155 people forcing metrolink out of service. which now is not the case, and may not be. on a more serious note, how much per mile would it cost to add second tracks to rights of way with the potential room for it? not just in this location but throughout the county |
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2008 11:56:04 GMT -8
More details. The engineer probably texted while he was waiting at the Chatsworth Station for the freight train to reach the siding, and therefore it has nothing to do with the accident. But no one knows why the train suddenly took off and blew the switch off a mile later and rammed into the freight train after another quarter mile at 40 MPH without even braking.
Sep 15, 3:39 PM EDT
Feds look into texting before deadly train crash
By AMY TAXIN
Associated Press Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Federal officials investigating a commuter rail collision that killed 25 people said they want to review cell phone records to determine if an engineer blamed for running a stop signal before the crash may have been text messaging at the time.
With the probe into Friday's crash continuing, a smaller number of commuters than normal returned to the rails Monday morning.
Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa boarded one of the morning's earliest trains.
"I want to dispel any fears about taking the train," the mayor said. "Safety has to be our number one concern, and while accidents can and do happen, taking the train is still one of the safest and fastest options for commuters."
The National Transportation Safety Board confirmed on Sunday that the engineer, who was killed in the crash, had failed to stop at the final red signal.
NTSB experts are planning to review the cell phone records of two 14-year-old boys and the engineer after the teens told CBS2-TV that they received a text message from the engineer shortly before the crash.
The Los Angeles station said the teen was among a group of youths who befriended the engineer and asked him questions about his work.
NTSB board member Kitty Higgins said investigators did not find a cell phone belonging to the engineer in the wreckage but would request his cell phone records, as well as those of the boys.
"We are going to be obtaining records from their cell phones and from the cell phones of the deceased engineer and will use our subpoena authority or whatever other legal authority we need and to begin to determine exactly what happened and what if any role that might have played in this accident," she said Sunday.
The commuter train carrying 220 people rolled past stop signals Friday and barreled head-on into a Union Pacific train in Chatsworth. The accident, the nation's deadliest rail disaster in 15 years, left train cars so mangled that some bodies had to be removed in pieces. The crash injured 138 people.
Regular riders said the number of commuters Monday was far short of a normal day.
Genise Silvers said she was on the train that crashed Friday but got off at the stop before the deadly crash. She said her daughter didn't want her to take the train to work Monday, but she felt she had to.
"I think I'm still a little in shock. I think it'll be OK. I kind of wanted to come today to be with my friends. When you've been through such a thing as this you want to commune with your friends," Silvers said at the Chatsworth Metrolink station.
Also Monday, the Metrolink spokeswoman who announced Saturday that the engineer's mistake caused the crash resigned. She said the railroad's board called her announcement "premature," even though NTSB officials later backed it up.
Metrolink did not return phone messages on the resignation.
NTSB investigators said Sunday that the train failed to stop at the final red signal, which forced the train onto a track at 42 mph where the Union Pacific freight was traveling in the opposite direction, Higgins said at a news conference. But the agency continued to investigate why that happened.
Higgins said she believed the crash could have been prevented with technology that stops a train on the track when a signal is disobeyed. The technology was not in place where the collision occurred.
"I believe this technology could have prevented the accident. If he ran the signal the train would have been stopped. I've seen it tested. It makes a difference," she said.
"What's it going to take? How many more accidents are we going to have to see like this that could have been prevented if this technology were in place?" Higgins said.
Higgins said audio recordings from the commuter train indicate a period of silence as it passed the last two signals before the fiery wreck, a time when the engineer and the conductor should have been performing verbal safety checks.
She cautioned, however, that the train may have entered a dead zone where the recording was interrupted.
Higgins said the NTSB would measure the distance between the signals along the track on Monday. Investigators also want to interview the conductor, who was injured, about the recording, she said.
"He'll be able to tell us whether he recalls the engineer calling out and him confirming those signals," Higgins said.
Data show that the Metrolink train ran the red light signal with devastating consequences.
"The Metrolink train went through the signal, did not observe the red signal and essentially forced open this section of the switch," Higgins said. "The switch bars were bent like a banana. It should be perfectly straight."
Higgins said experts still must examine whether the signal was working properly and were in the Metrolink engineer's line of sight.
However, she stressed that obeying signals on the track was an engineer's responsibility at the helm of a train.
"My understanding is it is very unusual for an experienced engineer to run a red light," she said.
Metrolink said earlier Sunday that a dispatcher tried to warn the engineer of the commuter train that he was about to collide with a freight train but the call came too late. The dispatcher reached the conductor in the rear of the train, but by then it had already crashed into the oncoming Union Pacific train, Metrolink officials said.
However, the NTSB contradicted Metrolink's report. Higgins said that the dispatcher noticed something was wrong, but before he could contact the train, the conductor - who survived - called in to report the wreck.
The collision occurred on a horseshoe-shaped section of track in Chatsworth at the west end of the San Fernando Valley, near a 500-foot-long tunnel underneath Stoney Point Park.
The commuter train was heading from Union Station in downtown Los Angeles to Ventura County. The impact rammed the Metrolink engine backward, jamming it deep into the first passenger car.
It was the deadliest passenger train crash since Sept. 22, 1993, when Amtrak's Sunset Limited plunged off a trestle into a bayou near Mobile, Ala., moments after the trestle was damaged by a towboat; 47 people were killed.
Associated Press writers Thomas Watkins, Michael Blood, Daisy Nguyen, Christina Hoag, Greg Risling, Justin Pritchard, James Beltran, John Rogers, Shaya Tayefe Mohajer and Gillian Flaccus contributed to this report.
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Post by jejozwik on Sept 15, 2008 12:44:29 GMT -8
why is an emergency recording system even capable of a "dead zone"
why is there such a need to rely on more and more equipment that can fail one day when the fairly obvious coarse of action would be to double track? i really dont understand the logic?
i posted this in the LAFD flickr page, but what kind of retrofitting can be done to the passenger cars to protect against the telescoping effect seen in this event?
looking over the photos, the engine car seemed do come away in a fairly good condition considering what happened. but the passenger car is completely annihilated....
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