|
Post by Gokhan on Mar 29, 2012 14:41:50 GMT -8
These are all stunningly beautiful and informative photographs, especially this one. Thanks for the great find Gokhan! I should in turn thank to rayinla for pointing this article out. It's a great photo indeed. It seems to be looking northeast at Ocean and Colorado, taken apparently from a building at the edge of the bluff there. The approach to the pier seems to appear in the background, although back then it would be a different structure than the one today. It could also be something else. It would be great if we had another photo from the opposite angle showing the ocean.
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Jul 16, 2012 21:22:51 GMT -8
As an Expo Line supporter, I can understand the nostalgia for the old Air Line. I first came out to LA in 1978 to go to USC, and remember the trains running down Exposition between campus and Exposition Park. I also lived in Pasadena in the late 80s-early 90s, when you could hear in the distance the train rumbling through town. But it does irk me that there are still people out there ignorant of the Air Line's history who so readily believe that the death of light rail in LA was due to an unholy conspiracy involving oil companies, GM, etc., rather than the marketplace simply reacting to the fact that people preferred to get around in their own automobiles. Perhaps it depends on your vantage point. If you were transit dependent--in those days I believe that meant you were probably African American--you might have been angry about the changeover to buses with noisy engines and poor acceleration and breaking ability compared to electrified railcars. That was real transit racism, or at any rate, transit classism. But nobody ever did ask you, as a transit-dependent person, because the middle class majority wanted cars and smooth roads not rutted by streetcar tracks or blocked by crossing trains. A more essential question might be, why couldn't we have kept both? What is it about technological progress and the workings of the free market that leads to the wholesale destruction of an older yet still useful transit system? Why was the possibility overlooked (or blatantly dismissed), that there were still some people who did not wish to or could not operate their own cars for various reasons?
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Jul 16, 2012 21:25:03 GMT -8
Guys, not to say that this isn't an important discussion, but it's irrelevant to this thread, which is supposed to be on history, and it's ruining it... Would it be possible to split off the station name comments into their own thread?
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Jul 17, 2012 16:06:58 GMT -8
It's also worth noting that New York City had a lot of streetcar lines like Los Angeles Railway, they were the first to sell out to National City Lines. This goes to highlight how different modes are best applicable. Although streetcars have it all over buses in terms of charm, not to mention driving and ride performance, they both are similar in terms of the conditions under which they run (in the streets, and in traffic). In the days of Manhattan streetcars, I can't imagine that anyone of sound mind would have ridden a streetcar the entire length of the island, because that's what the subways are for. I doubt that the streetcar was ever meant to be, or considered by the average New Yorker to be, a competitive alternative to the subway. In this city, replacing the yellow streetcars with buses, apart from diesel pollution and noise issues, probably wasn't a huge deal; but it's too bad we also lost the longer routes, which must have still run on some stretches of private ROW, judging from the fact that most of the Expo route is of that type. So, from what I've seen, is the Blue Line. You must be joking; think of the population density of NYC compared to LA's, in those days. And $.20 was worth a LOT more in those days, too. (2012-07-18 11:58a PDT: Fixed coding.)
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Jul 17, 2012 22:43:48 GMT -8
Regarding New York City: Back in the Thirties, their Mayor, Fiorella LaGuardia (after whom the airport is named) reportedly had a strong dislike for streetcars. I"m not sure how much National City Lines was involved with New York transit; as I recall they had little or no presence there.
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Jul 18, 2012 21:32:34 GMT -8
Another problem is that rail transit gets caught up in the sprawl vs. density debate. As a rail transit supporter, I know that subways and light rail work best in areas with at least a degree of density above suburban sprawl. Also, denser can be greener as potential public park space gets preserved instead of sprawled across by single-family homes. However, there are many people who seem to prefer private back yards over public parks (or who want both, in the same way that people want services but no taxes). For some people, it seems like even three-to-five stories tall can be a skyscraper. That whole private back yard thing sounds nice, but the only way most people of average means are going to get a house in the Basin is by inheriting it or winning the lotto. For the rest of us, that leaves the burbs, and the only way to not end up in the burbs is to compromise on the amount of personal space we get to have. That, in itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing. New Yorkers and San Franciscans have had to do this for generations. But what does need to change, perhaps, is people's attitudes toward city life, and what it means to raise children there. Sure it's got its problems, but there are some positive aspects too. Also, multifamily buildings, whether condos or rentals, need to offer better options for families. As it is, apartment life here is generally regarded as something young couples settle for only until the first baby is on the way, at which point the hunt for a suburban home begins.
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Jul 18, 2012 21:38:00 GMT -8
I also want to humbly submit a first semester undergraduate paper I wrote about it, if only because this group is probably the only one anywhere that would be half way interested in what a college kid had to say 33 years ago. How do I open this?
|
|
|
Post by matthewb on Jul 20, 2012 8:36:21 GMT -8
I also want to humbly submit a first semester undergraduate paper I wrote about it, if only because this group is probably the only one anywhere that would be half way interested in what a college kid had to say 33 years ago. How do I open this? Add ".pdf" to the end of the file name and open with Acrobat or another PDF viewer.
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Oct 17, 2012 17:00:45 GMT -8
Regarding New York City: Back in the Thirties, their Mayor, Fiorella LaGuardia (after whom the airport is named) reportedly had a strong dislike for streetcars. I"m not sure how much National City Lines was involved with New York transit; as I recall they had little or no presence there. As always when it comes to public transit and commuting habits, New York must have been the outstanding exception among major cities of the time. I doubt that anything was ever suggested as viable competition to the subway, either fiscally or from the rider's perspective. And knocking down old buildings to make way for parking lots was never an option the way it was in Western cities. With regard to streetcars specifically, now that you mention it, I can't remember them as ever being portrayed as a prominent feature of life in NYC, whether in 20th Century fiction or film, or in documentary material. According to the MTA's website--NYC's MTA, of course, not ours--what streetcars they had were just about all been replaced by motor buses by 1960.
|
|
|
Post by carter on Oct 17, 2012 17:22:12 GMT -8
Regarding New York City: Back in the Thirties, their Mayor, Fiorella LaGuardia (after whom the airport is named) reportedly had a strong dislike for streetcars. I"m not sure how much National City Lines was involved with New York transit; as I recall they had little or no presence there. As always when it comes to public transit and commuting habits, New York must have been the outstanding exception among major cities of the time. I doubt that anything was ever suggested as viable competition to the subway, either fiscally or from the rider's perspective. And knocking down old buildings to make way for parking lots was never an option the way it was in Western cities. With regard to streetcars specifically, now that you mention it, I can't remember them as ever being portrayed as a prominent feature of life in NYC, whether in 20th Century fiction or film, or in documentary material. According to the MTA's website--NYC's MTA, of course, not ours--what streetcars they had were just about all been replaced by motor buses by 1960. Not a prominent feature!? New York named a whole baseball team after the bums who would dodge trolly cars. You might have heard of them, because they play in Chavez Ravine now. Joking aside. I assure you that streetcars were a hugely prominent feature of New York life, running on virtually all the New York streets that presently have buses. Here's a streetcar map just for Brooklyn to give you an sense of their extent. images.nycsubway.org/maps/bqt_trolley_1924.gifEventually, the trolleys met the fate that many systems in North America did -- death not so much by conspiracy but by the fact that they got caught in the increasing auto traffic, and buses provided the ability to travel around blockages.
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Oct 18, 2012 1:11:37 GMT -8
One feature that was missing from the streetcars that ran in Manhattan was trolley poles. That borough, like Washington DC, insisted that the cars be powered through a conduit system, which looks, from the top like cable car tracks. If you look at movies or photos of Manhattan in the olden days, you may see streetcars that aren't "trolleys". The city fathers of San Francisco likewise stood firm against having trolley wire strung above Market St., but the April 18, 1906 earthquake (and some back-room chicanery) eliminated their objections, and overhead wires in various configurations have been there ever since.
|
|
|
Post by transitfan on Oct 18, 2012 5:32:31 GMT -8
As always when it comes to public transit and commuting habits, New York must have been the outstanding exception among major cities of the time. I doubt that anything was ever suggested as viable competition to the subway, either fiscally or from the rider's perspective. And knocking down old buildings to make way for parking lots was never an option the way it was in Western cities. With regard to streetcars specifically, now that you mention it, I can't remember them as ever being portrayed as a prominent feature of life in NYC, whether in 20th Century fiction or film, or in documentary material. According to the MTA's website--NYC's MTA, of course, not ours--what streetcars they had were just about all been replaced by motor buses by 1960. Not a prominent feature!? New York named a whole baseball team after the bums who would dodge trolly cars. You might have heard of them, because they play in Chavez Ravine now. Joking aside. I assure you that streetcars were a hugely prominent feature of New York life, running on virtually all the New York streets that presently have buses. Here's a streetcar map just for Brooklyn to give you an sense of their extent. images.nycsubway.org/maps/bqt_trolley_1924.gifEventually, the trolleys met the fate that many systems in North America did -- death not so much by conspiracy but by the fact that they got caught in the increasing auto traffic, and buses provided the ability to travel around blockages. Indeed. My mother was born and raised in Brooklyn (like myself), and from the time she was born until she was 14, there were 3 different trolley lines passing by her home. She lived on Rockaway Av between Livonia and Dumont, and was served by the Wilson, St. Johns and Ralph-Rockaway lines. The Wilson became the B60 bus line and still passes by that block. The St. Johns became the B45 and now ends at St Johns & Ralph without serving Rockaway Av. The Ralph-Rockaway was cut back to only serve Ralph Av. It had been the B40, but now is the B47. I believe that the St Johns and Ralph-Rockaway used Pitkin Av to get from Rockaway to St Johns/Ralph.
|
|
|
Post by davebowman on Feb 13, 2013 11:23:55 GMT -8
Recently I watched the film "Killer of Sheep," directed by Charles Burnett ("To Sleep with Anger"). It's a slice-of-life drama set in South-Central Los Angeles in the late '70s. There are numerous scenes of groups of kids playing around in the neighborhood, including throwing rocks at a freight train as it rumbles by an open field. And there was another scene where one of the kids was lying underneath one of the rail cars that had been side-tracked. Could that train have been using the Expo ROW, or were there other rail lines through South-Central as well?
What struck me was that there was no sense that the train posed any danger to the kids, and in fact it was something they would play around and with. That certainly was my experience growing up in the midwest, and I am still somewhat mystified when people in Cheviot Hills and elsewhere think trains on fixed tracks running through their neighborhood are more dangerous than automobiles, trucks, and buses.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Feb 13, 2013 12:03:52 GMT -8
Recently I watched the film "Killer of Sheep," directed by Charles Burnett ("To Sleep with Anger"). It's a slice-of-life drama set in South-Central Los Angeles in the late '70s. There are numerous scenes of groups of kids playing around in the neighborhood, including throwing rocks at a freight train as it rumbles by an open field. And there was another scene where one of the kids was lying underneath one of the rail cars that had been side-tracked. Could that train have been using the Expo ROW, or were there other rail lines through South-Central as well? What struck me was that there was no sense that the train posed any danger to the kids, and in fact it was something they would play around and with. That certainly was my experience growing up in the midwest, and I am still somewhat mystified when people in Cheviot Hills and elsewhere think trains on fixed tracks running through their neighborhood are more dangerous than automobiles, trucks, and buses. The Santa Monica branch (Expo Line) of Southern Pacific ran only about once a day -- it was a minor branch. BNSF Harbor Subdivision ran more trains and part of it is still active. The most likely location is somewhere near the Alameda Corridor, which is the main trunk for the harbor, or perhaps the Blue Line auxiliary corridor near that. Here is the clip of the scene where they throw rocks at the Southern Pacific train, which rules out the BNSF Harbor Subdivision. There are a lot of tank cars and for this reason it seems unlikely that it's on the Santa Monica branch. Perhaps Bob Davis can recognize the location.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Feb 19, 2013 14:27:50 GMT -8
This was the cover story of the Orange Empire Railway Museum's July 2012 Gazette (of which my father is a member):
Air Line Memories By Ray Ballash
Now that the new "Exposition Line" in Los Angeles has opened with much fanfare, the riders are really discovering the fast service it provides. Now with three car trains running under cantenary overhead, welded rail, tunnels, trenches, and flyovers, the line has little resemblance to what it was when us kids rode it in the Pacific Electric days. Then, the line ran through some crusty old industrial districts, old neighborhoods, and a little open country on the west side. Today, everything is built up, but it's still not a neighborhood that we would like to live in.
Let's take a trip on the Air Line from what I can remember when we were all high school teenager. The proverbial seeds of our museum were virtually planted on this very line. The line's primary value was as a freight route, but the PE was required by the state to provide passenger service. The PE ran the "Santa Monica Air Line" franchise car six days a week, outbound to Santa Monica leaving 6th & Main station around 5 PM in the afternoon and inbound to LA in the morning. The crew apparently lived on the west side, which made it convenient for them. We always had a 5050 class Hollywood car from the Watts Line pool. The car would lay over behind a building on an unused siding overnight. I never rode it in the morning, but did so quite a few times on Saturday nights.
Very few passengers rode on the weekends, so it was virtually our own fan trip gathering each Saturday. Fred Lane was motorman and Mr. Cooke "Cookie" was conductor. Cookie, a solemn old guy, didn't understand what we saw in the PE. And Cookie never missed collecting a fare from each of us. He dutifully collected that 35 cents each trip and never missed me once. They both ran our trolley wire greaser car (PE 00150) during the week and traversed the Air Line on their trip to the Hollywood and Burbank lines, greasing the overhead wire. Fred, being a frugal man, would spot soda pop bottles along the track during the week, but couldn’t stop to pick them up. But on Saturday, we were his cleanup crew. Fred had a real eagle eye, he could remember where they were and we would jump out and pick them up for him. At two cents deposit each, who could resist? He also would stop anywhere on the line so we could take pictures. At each photo stop, good 'ol Cookie would get our and flag behind, protecting us from the rear in case the Super Chief might come speeding along.
There was always a freight motor tied up at Culver Junction. Must have been a night job as we always had the entire line all to ourselves.
There were continuous rumors of abandonment, but when it was finally announced, we rarely missed those last Saturday trips, always stopping to take many photos. From Santa Monica we boarded a bus For Beverly Hills and then the Hollywood Blvd. line to LA. The whole round trip was less than two dollars.
The last trip was after daylight savings time ended and therefore after dark. It was uneventful, but almost a Full car. Fred, the motorman motioned to us close to the end of the line, "we'll never use that old dash sign again, I'll stop up ahead and why don’t you throw it off in the weeds," which we were only too happy to do. And we did pick it up later. Thank you Fred, you are the reason it exists today. Well, Mr. Cooke had a duty to collect that sign and return it to the PE. I remember him asking everyone if they knew where it went. Only a few of us redly did know. I lied to him, my apologies, Mr. Cooke. All through the years he must have taken it home each night so it survived so long. I've kept it these past 59 plus years and now it’s time for our museum to take over its safekeeping. It sure brings back some good memories.
Maybe the new Metro Line will spark some young kids' imagination and the circle of life will start all over.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Oct 14, 2013 11:39:22 GMT -8
This is great. Air Line, which is what the Expo Line was named back then for its nearly straight tracks, ran all the way to the Pacific Electric Ocean Park rail yard in Ocean Park, Santa Monica, which is the Metro Venice Bus Division today. In fact, it even continued through Venice and Marina Del Rey to Inglewood a few years earlier and ended at Cable Place and Ivy Avenue, where it joined the ATSF (BNSF) Harbor Subdivision tracks (Crenshaw Line). The following is a very interesting story and a great timetable made by a rail enthusiast: This is from Raphael Long’s collection. This timetable was printed and distributed by rail enthusiast. The Pacific Electric did not publish a timetable for the Air Line. It was a required franchise run and PE did not want it known about. The timetables were placed in the timetable rack at the PE 6th & Main Station and the PE removed them as soon as they were discovered.
At this time the PE / SP was negotiating with Jessie Howell of the Metropolitan Coach Lines to sell all PE passenger service which took place within a few months. The Air Line was so out of site that it was not part of the original sale and was not included until well after the sale. PE was able to cut the line back to 10th Ave shortly after the publishing date on the time table, but was not abandoned It until October of 1953. Therefore the Air Line was the last line to have PE passenger service.
Alan Fishel
|
|
|
Post by davebowman on Jan 10, 2014 15:03:18 GMT -8
I'm not sure where to post this, but as some of you may know there is a new book out called "Railtown: The Fight for the Los Angeles Metro Rail and the Future of the City," by Ethan Elkind (University of California Press). I've just started it, and so far it is quite readable and seems to be well-researched. In case you're wondering, I did not see Damien Goodmon's name listed in the index.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Jan 10, 2014 16:41:51 GMT -8
I'm not sure where to post this, but as some of you may know there is a new book out called "Railtown: The Fight for the Los Angeles Metro Rail and the Future of the City," by Ethan Elkind (University of California Press). I've just started it, and so far it is quite readable and seems to be well-researched. In case you're wondering, I did not see Damien Goodmon's name listed in the index. I didn't know about this. Thanks. Looks like a good read. I am going to pick it up.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Jan 10, 2014 22:34:58 GMT -8
I'm not sure where to post this, but as some of you may know there is a new book out called "Railtown: The Fight for the Los Angeles Metro Rail and the Future of the City," by Ethan Elkind (University of California Press). I've just started it, and so far it is quite readable and seems to be well-researched. In case you're wondering, I did not see Damien Goodmon's name listed in the index. Sounds interesting -- Ethan interviewed me a couple of years ago on this subject, and I'm curious where he went with it. And I should see my comments are in the book.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 4, 2014 23:13:19 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Apr 6, 2014 19:55:53 GMT -8
"Revitalize public transit to reduce traffic congestion"--only in the last 25 years has this admonition been observed in Southern California. What's ironic is that General Electric has little to do with the revitalization. The ads arent dated, but the car shown with the trolley coach looks like a 1938 Chevrolet (my dad had a 1937 Chevy back in the late 40s-early 50s).
|
|
|
Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Apr 30, 2014 5:33:57 GMT -8
So this is pretty well-known, but just in case: Thomas Edison traveled on the Los Angeles and independence railroad in 1898, the precursor to the Expo line. As luck would have it he also made a film, here it is: Note that this continues on the original right-of-way past 4th through the McClure tunnel then turns right up what is now Pacific Coast Highway. A link to the original library file. Going through the tunnelAnd an article about this tunnel: The Train Tunnel in This 1898 Film Is Now Part of Pacific Coast Highway
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 30, 2014 13:35:08 GMT -8
This is very cool!
If only he had filmed the entire trip!
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2017 16:51:40 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by chuckchuck on Jan 30, 2017 17:58:32 GMT -8
^^ very cool.
|
|