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Post by masonite on Feb 14, 2013 10:21:40 GMT -8
Is it about time to remind the "Reason Foundation" clowns what idiots they are? I guess to be on the safe side we could wait until it actually hits 27K riders seven years ahead of projections and then post a rebuttal, but perhaps a little nudge is warranted with the data we already have. A reminder to those who missed their totally flawed "report" reason.com/blog/2012/06/21/la-expo-line-opens-two-more-rail-stationYeah, their analysis was based on the first week of Expo with no Culver City station and many bus lines not rerouted for Expo. We are more than double that amount now. I did take Expo to the Laker game on Tuesday night and at Culver City someone who had never ridden noticed my Laker shirt and asked where to get off for Staples Center. Getting off at Pico, I saw him again and said to him it is pretty easy to get here on the train wasn't it. He said yes, but was surprised at how slow it was, and this was on a train I felt went pretty fast through the street running portion and we didn't have to wait at the junction like we often do. That is pretty much the impression I get from everyone about Expo. It is convenient to many things, but very slow.
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Post by rajacobs on Feb 14, 2013 11:20:50 GMT -8
Growing up in Cleveland with the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit, I remember the closer you got to the Terminal Tower--the train station in the center of town, the faster the train went. After it left the East 55th Street station it had a dedicated right-of-way through an apparent ravine and then slipped underground as it passed the steel mills.
The point is that on the Expo Line the closer you get to where you want to go (7th Metre) the slower the train seems to go because of all the lights, cross streets and traffic. You might say it's not a satisfying experience!
From my first ride down Flower, I've had and maintain the impression that the Flower segment needs to be underground or elevated. ...But that won't be considered any time soon, so nonetheless, I'm content to have Expo even the way it is!
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Post by Philip on Feb 14, 2013 11:29:12 GMT -8
Fortunately, once we get Expo, the first phase of Crenshaw, and the Foothill Gold Line out of the way, most of the major rail projects left for L.A. will not be street running, which should ease the speed issue.
The Purple Line to Westwood, the Regional Connector, the Airport Connector, the 405 Line, and probably most of the Santa Ana Line - all either grade separated or on their own private ROW.
Heck, even the Tier 1 projects - Burbank/Glendale, Crenshaw Phase 2 to Wilshire, Purple Line to Santa Monica, and the Green Line to Norwalk - are all fully grade-separated projects.
The only likely street-running projects on the docket are the Gold Line East Side Phase 2 (which is decades away) and possibly the Green Line to Torrance (also decades away).
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Post by masonite on Feb 14, 2013 11:48:17 GMT -8
Fortunately, once we get Expo, the first phase of Crenshaw, and the Foothill Gold Line out of the way, most of the major rail projects left for L.A. will not be street running, which should ease the speed issue. The Purple Line to Westwood, the Regional Connector, the Airport Connector, the 405 Line, and probably most of the Santa Ana Line - all either grade separated or on their own private ROW. Heck, even the Tier 1 projects - Burbank/Glendale, Crenshaw Phase 2 to Wilshire, Purple Line to Santa Monica, and the Green Line to Norwalk - are all fully grade-separated projects. The only liekly street-running projects on the docket are the Gold Line East Side Phase 2 (which is decades away) and possibly the Green Line to Torrance (also decades away). Crenshaw only has a short street running segment. Expo 2 will have the Downtown Santa Monica section and that is it. I believe the Foothill Gold line will be pretty much all grade separate or gated crossings. Expo 1 has some station spacing issues with Expo Park (not saying that station is not necessary, but it makes for a slow line) and Farmdale where there clearly should not be a station so it is not just the street running segment from USC to Downtown. It is good to think that we won't really have future lines with this problem at least not to this degree.
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Post by rubbertoe on Feb 14, 2013 12:55:58 GMT -8
The only likely street-running projects on the docket are the Gold Line East Side Phase 2 (which is decades away) and possibly the Green Line to Torrance (also decades away). Philip, I believe the Green Line extension to Torrance will be grade separated like the rest of the line. RT
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Post by JerardWright on Feb 14, 2013 14:01:37 GMT -8
The only likely street-running projects on the docket are the Gold Line East Side Phase 2 (which is decades away) and possibly the Green Line to Torrance (also decades away). Philip, I believe the Green Line extension to Torrance will be grade separated like the rest of the line. RT There are a few at-grade crossings however as discussed the corridor will stick to the ROW and be on Private crossings
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Post by jamesinclair on Feb 14, 2013 21:08:16 GMT -8
Is it about time to remind the "Reason Foundation" clowns what idiots they are? I guess to be on the safe side we could wait until it actually hits 27K riders seven years ahead of projections and then post a rebuttal, but perhaps a little nudge is warranted with the data we already have. A reminder to those who missed their totally flawed & quot;report" I wrote the blog article that Streetsblog highlighted which they replied to, and further dug themselves into their hole with. You can be damn sure Ill be posting something on the one year mark.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 12, 2013 10:23:51 GMT -8
Not posted on the Metro Web site yet but expolinefan sent us the February ridership:
25,295
It looks like we'll hit the 2020 projection of 27,000 in April, after 9 months following the full opening!
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 12, 2013 10:46:43 GMT -8
Full table by Metro via expolinefan:
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 12, 2013 12:01:28 GMT -8
It's the old Hollywood adage, "Give the people what they want, and they'll turn out in droves."
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Post by TransportationZ on Mar 12, 2013 12:26:19 GMT -8
The Expo Line's ridership per mile is almost 3,000 riders per mile. impressive to say the least. I just can't wait to see ridership after phase 2 opens.
And the weekend numbers are just as impressive.
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Post by mbbernstein on Mar 12, 2013 15:55:10 GMT -8
The Expo Line's ridership per mile is almost 3,000 riders per mile. impressive to say the least. I just can't wait to see ridership after phase 2 opens. And the weekend numbers are just as impressive. Ditto. On that latter point, what's remarkable to me is the acceleration of ridership growth on Saturdays AFTER the conclusion of the USC football season. I wonder what the catalyst could be?
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 16, 2013 13:43:07 GMT -8
As Mr. Toe just posted, March 2013 ridership for the Expo Line is 25,983. It looks like we may hit 27k in April, only a year after the line partially opened.
It's hard for me to personally observe any noticeable change in the ridership anymore. It was more obvious in the past.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 29, 2013 16:35:43 GMT -8
Is the Expo Train losing steam? The trains seem to be getting less crowded every week. I find it surprising that the Metro numbers keep increasing. Perhaps it's my perception.
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Post by fishballl on May 3, 2013 15:26:42 GMT -8
Article on Expo Line ridership trends: www.neontommy.com/news/2013/04/one-year-later-who-riding-expo-line"When the Expo Line, Los Angeles Metro’s newest light rail line, opened in April 2012, initial ridership numbers were low, starting at around 11,000 per average weekday, a fact which many media sources reported on. One libertarian think tank even used these low numbers to argue that light rail systems in general should not be built. But now, one year later, the picture is very different. Ridership on weekdays has been increasing at a steady clip of about 1,000 per month, reaching an estimated 26,000 per day during the week. Given that Metro projected about 27,000 riders per day by the year 2020, that number is very good. The number of people riding the Expo Line may pass that benchmark in the coming months"
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Post by rubbertoe on May 13, 2013 16:35:29 GMT -8
April ridership was 25,731, down slightly from March (25,983). They (MTA) got the Green Line numbers wrong again, so I'm holding off on posting the graphs until they get that corrected.
RT
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Post by Gokhan on May 13, 2013 21:01:58 GMT -8
Is the Expo Train losing steam? The trains seem to be getting less crowded every week. I find it surprising that the Metro numbers keep increasing. Perhaps it's my perception. April ridership was 25,731, down slightly from March (25,983). They (MTA) got the Green Line numbers wrong again, so I'm holding off on posting the graphs until they get that corrected. RT I was right this time with my observations. The good note is that according to my observations, May is doing better. However, it's time to wake up from the dream to the reality. Many riders are going back to their cars because the line is too slow in certain segments and some riders are too rowdy and noisy and intimidate more respectable riders. Few USC students are taking the line because many still think that public transit and trains in LA are a no - no. What is needed: (1) More speedup: Farmdale needs to go from 10 MPH to 25 MPH; more signal sync/priority is needed and Flower St needs to be improved. Also, operations at the terminus need to be improved as sometimes there is confusion to which train is going to go through the switch. (2) Last but not least, more crackdown by Sheriff deputies on unruly passengers is needed before it becomes an everyday carnival like the Blue Line.
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Post by Elson on May 14, 2013 2:35:50 GMT -8
Article on Expo Line ridership trends: "Given that Metro projected about 27,000 riders per day by the year 2020" This is what I don't get about ridership stats... 27,000 projected in 2020 is EXTREMELY low due to the fact that in 2020, the Expo Line will have by then already reach Santa Monica...and even if they were counting the 7MC-to-Culver City segment in 2020, you'd think that the line would still have more riders regardless, considering the initial segment of the Crenshaw Line (which connects to Expo at Crenshaw) would also be open. So no duh we've exceeded those projected statistics, since they were extremely underestimated to begin with! Don't mean to be skeptical about rail, I of all people love seeing very high rail ridership in my city...it's just that "exceeding the 2020 estimate" isn't really a big deal when it's been underestimated to begin with.
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Post by simonla on May 14, 2013 7:48:56 GMT -8
Is the Expo Train losing steam? The trains seem to be getting less crowded every week. I find it surprising that the Metro numbers keep increasing. Perhaps it's my perception. April ridership was 25,731, down slightly from March (25,983). They (MTA) got the Green Line numbers wrong again, so I'm holding off on posting the graphs until they get that corrected. RT I was right this time with my observations. The good note is that according to my observations, May is doing better. However, it's time to wake up from the dream to the reality. Many riders are going back to their cars because the line is too slow in certain segments and some riders are too rowdy and noisy and intimidate more respectable riders. Few USC students are taking the line because many still think that public transit and trains in LA are a no - no. What is needed: (1) More speedup: Farmdale needs to go from 10 MPH to 25 MPH; more signal sync/priority is needed and Flower St needs to be improved. Also, operations at the terminus need to be improved as sometimes there is confusion to which train is going to go through the switch. (2) Last but not least, more crackdown by Sheriff deputies on unruly passengers is needed before it becomes an everyday carnival like the Blue Line. While I don't take Expo every day, I take it about once a week. From my observations it is not unruly passengers OR Farmdale that is turning people off; Farmdale slowdown is barely noticeable. It is Flower Street segment, plus Crenshaw, Western, and Vermont. The lights at these intersections are ridiculously long, especially since there's a left turn signal. I've been on the train where we've hit red lights--just as they turned red--at Normandie, Crenshaw, Western, and numerous Flower Street segments. It took over 35 minutes to get from CC to 7th/Metro. Not acceptable. Angelenos are in a rush and speed is the utmost concern to most.
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Post by masonite on May 14, 2013 8:53:06 GMT -8
I was right this time with my observations. The good note is that according to my observations, May is doing better. However, it's time to wake up from the dream to the reality. Many riders are going back to their cars because the line is too slow in certain segments and some riders are too rowdy and noisy and intimidate more respectable riders. Few USC students are taking the line because many still think that public transit and trains in LA are a no - no. What is needed: (1) More speedup: Farmdale needs to go from 10 MPH to 25 MPH; more signal sync/priority is needed and Flower St needs to be improved. Also, operations at the terminus need to be improved as sometimes there is confusion to which train is going to go through the switch. (2) Last but not least, more crackdown by Sheriff deputies on unruly passengers is needed before it becomes an everyday carnival like the Blue Line. While I don't take Expo every day, I take it about once a week. From my observations it is not unruly passengers OR Farmdale that is turning people off; Farmdale slowdown is barely noticeable. It is Flower Street segment, plus Crenshaw, Western, and Vermont. The lights at these intersections are ridiculously long, especially since there's a left turn signal. I've been on the train where we've hit red lights--just as they turned red--at Normandie, Crenshaw, Western, and numerous Flower Street segments. It took over 35 minutes to get from CC to 7th/Metro. Not acceptable. Angelenos are in a rush and speed is the utmost concern to most. Farmdale def. adds to the slowdown, which I agree is the biggest problem. 30 plus minutes from Culver City just doesn't get anyone excited, especially choice riders. I have ridden quite a few times at 5:30 - 6:00 and am suprised how few people there are that appear to be coming from work. With that, I rode the Gold Line a few months ago and just can't believe the difference between it and Expo. Cleaner trains, much nicer stations, much newer trains (Bredas of course), faster service, boards at the stations that show when the next trains are scheduled to come, etc... The Expo stations look more like the Blue Line and so does the feel of the whole line. Hard to believe the Gold Line is actually the older line.
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Post by Philip on May 14, 2013 9:38:36 GMT -8
The single worst crossing, in my opinion, is Adams/Flower.
I don't think there's been a time I've riden the Expo Line where I haven't stopped here. For several minutes.
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Post by Gokhan on May 14, 2013 21:27:58 GMT -8
With that, I rode the Gold Line a few months ago and just can't believe the difference between it and Expo. Cleaner trains, much nicer stations, much newer trains (Bredas of course), faster service, boards at the stations that show when the next trains are scheduled to come, etc... The Expo stations look more like the Blue Line and so does the feel of the whole line. Hard to believe the Gold Line is actually the older line. I rode the Breda P2550 only once or twice but I like the good old Nippon Sharyo P865's much better than the Siemens P2000's. Their drive systems are much better. Siemens's have a computer-controlled drive system -- you can here the relays going on and off inside the cabinets -- which is awful, being an extremely jerky ride and not cooperating with ATP that well, braking suddenly when the speed limit is reached. Nippon Sharyo drive system has much more smoother acceleration and braking and ATP reaction is smooth as well. I can't really compare them to Bredas as I don't ride the latter often. However, I know Bredas have very loud air conditioning among some other problems (heavy trains, small windows, etc.). Of course, in a few years we will have the Kinki Sharyo P3010's. I think the design of the Expo stations is pretty good. It's a choice between a simpler design and fancy design of the Gold Line Stations. Neither is necessarily better. I don't know what it would take to put LCD displays. I am worried that since there is a lack of good rain shielding, it could be challenging to put them. They should have definitely put them in the first place. I often see people calling the emergency intercom at the station and asking when the next train will be.
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Post by bzcat on May 15, 2013 7:08:44 GMT -8
I know it was probably discussed at some point in the past, but can someone gave me a quick run down on why Phase 1 crossing at Pico, Adams, 29th st, Jefferson, Vermont, Crenshaw, Western are not gated?
Similar crossing at Phase 2 (e.g Overland, Westwood) are all gated except in Downtown Santa Monica (Lincoln), and that was at the request of the City of Santa Monica.
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Post by masonite on May 15, 2013 8:22:08 GMT -8
With that, I rode the Gold Line a few months ago and just can't believe the difference between it and Expo. Cleaner trains, much nicer stations, much newer trains (Bredas of course), faster service, boards at the stations that show when the next trains are scheduled to come, etc... The Expo stations look more like the Blue Line and so does the feel of the whole line. Hard to believe the Gold Line is actually the older line. I rode the Breda P2550 only once or twice but I like the good old Nippon Sharyo P865's much better than the Siemens P2000's. Their drive systems are much better. Siemens's have a computer-controlled drive system -- you can here the relays going on and off inside the cabinets -- which is awful, being an extremely jerky ride and not cooperating with ATP that well, braking suddenly when the speed limit is reached. Nippon Sharyo drive system has much more smoother acceleration and braking and ATP reaction is smooth as well. I can't really compare them to Bredas as I don't ride the latter often. However, I know Bredas have very loud air conditioning among some other problems (heavy trains, small windows, etc.). Of course, in a few years we will have the Kinki Sharyo P3010's. I think the design of the Expo stations is pretty good. It's a choice between a simpler design and fancy design of the Gold Line Stations. Neither is necessarily better. I don't know what it would take to put LCD displays. I am worried that since there is a lack of good rain shielding, it could be challenging to put them. They should have definitely put them in the first place. I often see people calling the emergency intercom at the station and asking when the next train will be. I agree with you on the Nippon Sharyo's. They are good trains, although they are getting a little long in the tooth. They do look old on the outside, while the Bredas look pretty sleek. However, the Breda's will probably not age well. Their air con is loud, but I'll take that over someone yapping on their cell phone on Expo. I like the Gold Line Stations much better. The Expo stations don't really look finished and have that plain Blue Line look to them. Of course, the Gold Line goes through a much prettier part of the City and almost looks majestic at times going through the Arroyo. You def. don't get that going through South LA on the Expo Line, although the Northvale Trench in Phase II should be quite nice.
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Post by Gokhan on May 15, 2013 11:09:29 GMT -8
I know it was probably discussed at some point in the past, but can someone gave me a quick run down on why Phase 1 crossing at Pico, Adams, 29th st, Jefferson, Vermont, Crenshaw, Western are not gated? Similar crossing at Phase 2 (e.g Overland, Westwood) are all gated except in Downtown Santa Monica (Lincoln), and that was at the request of the City of Santa Monica. Crenshaw wan't gated mostly because of LADOT, as they didn't want to add additional delay on the traffic. However, the traffic-light cycle would probably be shorter if they used gates instead and overall it could be less delay as a result. They normally use the gates only in private-right-of-way sections and street-side-running sections. Colorado Avenue is not a private-right-of-way section. Flower Street is a street-side-running section and it would be a good opportunity for gates but partly LADOT made it difficult. Also, another reason for not to put gates is the cost. Gates cost around $3 million per crossing. They had really been keen on saving money in Phase 1, and yet the contractor still had a heist. One more difficulty with gates is that they take up space and if you don't have enough right-of-way, they could be hard to fit in.
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Post by JerardWright on May 15, 2013 15:14:33 GMT -8
Article on Expo Line ridership trends: "Given that Metro projected about 27,000 riders per day by the year 2020" This is what I don't get about ridership stats... 27,000 projected in 2020 is EXTREMELY low due to the fact that in 2020, the Expo Line will have by then already reach Santa Monica...and even if they were counting the 7MC-to-Culver City segment in 2020, you'd think that the line would still have more riders regardless, considering the initial segment of the Crenshaw Line (which connects to Expo at Crenshaw) would also be open. So no duh we've exceeded those projected statistics, since they were extremely underestimated to begin with! Don't mean to be skeptical about rail, I of all people love seeing very high rail ridership in my city...it's just that "exceeding the 2020 estimate" isn't really a big deal when it's been underestimated to begin with. I don't think it was underestimated when you consider that currently this line is operating on 12 minute frequency when its written in the EIR for 5-6 minute headways and all the speed/delay faults the line has as noted by posters here on this board for this line to have this much ridership despite all of this is a big boon and shows what happens when corridors connect to destinations people want to go to and despite the time delays is still FASTER then the current connecting bus services. This is similar to the successes San Diego Trolley had in its first year of operation 1981-82 when it was operating single track sections every 20 minutes and its first year it had 50% more ridership then expected from 9500 to over 14000 daily riders.
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Post by masonite on Jun 12, 2013 20:59:00 GMT -8
Looks like Expo's ridership is now just under 27k at 26.7k. Should be able to hit the 27k here shortly. With improved run times, I think we'll see a slight bump in ridership, although I think with the parking lots filling up that might put a damper on it (not sure if La Cienaga is filling up too).
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jun 12, 2013 21:49:36 GMT -8
Looks like Expo's ridership is now just under 27k at 26.7k. Should be able to hit the 27k here shortly. With improved run times, I think we'll see a slight bump in ridership, although I think with the parking lots filling up that might put a damper on it (not sure if La Cienaga is filling up too). Parking does not drive ridership (yes, pun intended). Look at the ridership of the more popular lines, they have less parking available than those with more parking. The Green Line has more park-n-rides (I think every station other than Mariposa) and it doesn't have half the ridership of the Blue Line, which has parking at half the stations. The Red Line has less parking than Gold or Expo and still has more ridership. It's not about parking, it's the destinations along a line and the density. Utilizing space for developments would be more productive than creating mass parking lots. Give people reasons to go to multiple stations for residential/entertainment/commercial. A parking lot station is not a destination station, and is only useful for 1 market of transit users. The Expo Line will grow without more parking needed (see all other rail lines in LA that experienced growth with no new parking lots invested). To show you how irrelevant parking is to transit or urban development, look at Bottega Louie restaurant in downtown. The parking lot behind the restaurant has been demolished for a new residential development, but yet the restaurant still thrives. If parking was why people go shopping/dining, then OC and the Valley would be more "hopping" than downtown LA, Hollywood, Venice or Santa Monica which has much fewer surface parking. It's not the parking that brings people...it's the destinations!
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 12, 2013 22:24:02 GMT -8
OK, so, Expo June 2013 ridership is 26,663. We can round this up to 27k and claim that Expo has reached its future goal already! June ridership is looking very strong from my observations and it could be around 28k. I think the reason for the low ridership in April was mostly spring break. More parking spots certainly help ridership. However, better and more frequent bus connections are very important. When Phase 2 opens in 2015, the 12-minute-headway trains will be unpleasantly crowded.
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 12, 2013 22:30:43 GMT -8
OK, so, Expo June 2013 ridership is 26,663. We can round this up to 27k and claim that Expo has reached its future goal already! June ridership is looking very strong from my observations and it could be around 28k. I think the reason for the low ridership in April was mostly spring break. More parking spots certainly help ridership. However, better and more frequent bus connections are very important. When Phase 2 opens in 2015, the 12-minute-headway trains will be unpleasantly crowded. Isn't the plan to go to 6 minute headways when phase 2 opens?
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