f ron
Full Member
Posts: 222
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Post by f ron on Sept 6, 2013 10:33:08 GMT -8
I think it's reasonable to expect a fee in exchange for a space --particularly if it's being used all day. I can understand a 'free for now' policy but in the long run if it's a money sink then remedy that.
Do the studies you site indicate whether parking encourages light rail use or was it strictly free parking that was being examined?
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 6, 2013 11:07:42 GMT -8
Do the studies you site indicate whether parking encourages light rail use or was it strictly free parking that was being examined? Are TODs Over-Parked?, UC Berkeley, 2009 is one of them. ...I believe free parking was the primary focus though pay parking was also discouraged. However, from my own observation, in places like Philadelphia and Chicago with large far-flung populations, parking (typically pay) seems to be needed. In West LA, I'm not so sure. Much of it can be walked. Once the Purple line comes in, folks living between the Expo and Purple may find it hard to make a reasonable argument for parking. As for others living farther away (say Playa Vista) ...I don't know. Westchester will have some reasonable access to the Crenshaw Line. ...And for folks north of the Purple. I think the mistaken belief is that people with money will have no interest in transit. ...Once transit really gets rolling here (probably after we're dead!), ...I can imagine another line between Hollywood and the beach or connecting to the Purple.
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Post by culvercitylocke on Sept 6, 2013 11:14:03 GMT -8
I will say that the free parking is probably the main reason that so many USC fans use the Expo line on Game Days. Figure 5000 people use the expo line for USC games, and parking is free, figure those 5000 people represent about 2500 cars. At a going rate of around $20 to park for a game, that's taken $50,000 out of the local parking economy last year, per game.
Btw, if you're looking for parking at la cienega or culver city tomorrow and can't find it, Hayden has hundreds of street parking spaces, no restrictions on the weekend and virtually empty. It's only three blocks from either station.
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Post by joshuanickel on Sept 11, 2013 11:37:43 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 11, 2013 13:12:32 GMT -8
It not only met it but exceeded it. Of course, the 27k was not a very ambitious goal and the trains are still mostly empty, which is good in some way because they offer a comfortable trip. September ridership should be significantly higher with the school season.
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Post by masonite on Sept 11, 2013 15:27:12 GMT -8
It not only met it but exceeded it. Of course, the 27k was not a very ambitious goal and the trains are still mostly empty, which is good in some way because they offer a comfortable trip. September ridership should be significantly higher with the school season. I think Expo has a good even ridership throughout the day and importantly in both directions (which many rail lines do not). Also, weekend ridership is pretty good. The Source just had a post on increasing ridership for USC football. 27k for a less than 9 mile line is nothing to sneeze at. I think they sandbag the goals so they can say they meet them after doing the opposite with the original Red Line way back when. Would be nice to hit 30k in the next year. I still think back to that Reason article that lambasted the ridership the first week when it was only 8k or so (with no Culver City Station or bus line that really connected to Expo yet). Gotta give these lines a full year, before evaluating them.
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Post by TransportationZ on Sept 13, 2013 11:22:35 GMT -8
It not only met it but exceeded it. Of course, the 27k was not a very ambitious goal and the trains are still mostly empty, which is good in some way because they offer a comfortable trip. September ridership should be significantly higher with the school season. The trains are mostly empty because it has to run 3 car trains all the time. Also, most people are using it for for short distance trips. Blue trains are full of commuters going all the way to green line or Long Beach, thus seats aren't clearing for other passengers on the local stretch stations. The 27k mark means this train officially moves 3,000 per mile, which is pretty impressive for only 1 year of service. Keep in mind that the Blue line averages 4,000 riders per mile, so it's almost there. It will easily surpass the the Blue Line in ridership per mile when it gets to Santa Monica. Simply put, this line is as major as the Blue Line is.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 13, 2013 14:16:45 GMT -8
20k Expo Saturday ridership -- roughly 3/4 of weekday ridership -- is impressive. It looks like people are taking the line to the museums and entertainment.
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Post by davebowman on Sept 13, 2013 15:05:51 GMT -8
I would pay to park near an Expo Line station to go to a USC football game, provided the cost wasn't exorbitant and I could get in and out fairly quickly. It would be worth it to me to avoid the horrible traffic congestion in the USC area. The last time I drove to a game, after the game was over I sat in my car on the top level of the Parking Center for an hour before I could move. Taking the Expo Line to a game last year from Culver City was a breeze, although it helped that I went with a friend who has a handicapped parking sticker.
I live in Santa Monica, but if no parking was available near the Culver City or La Cienega Expo stations on game-day I would rather drive to the Staples Center area and pay to park in one of the lots near Pico Station. I think I would even consider driving to Hollywood and Highland and taking the the Red Line to the Expo Line, or taking the BBB #5 to get to the Culver City station. Anything to avoid parking around USC. I wonder if there would be enough people on the westside going to a USC game to justify special Expo Line game-day schedules for the #5, or for the rapid express (#12?) from downtown Santa Monica?
Did I mention I can't wait for Phase II to open?
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Post by bzcat on Sept 16, 2013 10:16:13 GMT -8
If BBB operated a special USC game day Rapid 20 schedule, I'm sure the buses will be filled. The problem is BBB doesn't have the resources to do that and USC certainly won't pay for it like Hollywood Bowl does for its concerts.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 21, 2013 10:20:23 GMT -8
September ridership is really strong. Line has really picked up. Expect at least 28k. We should hit 30k soon.
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Post by TransportationZ on Sept 21, 2013 19:05:01 GMT -8
September ridership is really strong. Line has really picked up. Expect at least 28k. We should hit 30k soon. The speed increases are really helping. Based on the last 4 or 5 times of riding the line, Flower from the junction to 7th street is pretty much fixed. Adam st and that HOV on-ramp are still problem areas though. I can't figure out why the train has to stop at that HOV ramp. The green for that ramp is extremely long and are is often barely any traffic to warrant it. The timing for Crenshaw is also much better. No more stopping at Crenshaw station, then moving 10 feet before stopping again because of a missed signal. No stopping so far at Normandie either. Then again, I could just be lucky.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 22, 2013 19:09:40 GMT -8
First months of the operations were problematic, with many breakdowns, ATP problems, the junction, unpaved Culver City parking lot, etc. These were all left behind. They will also fix the Hayden Ave frogs in December and we should see some additional speed-up.
Westbound trains are usually on-time or late a minute or two. Sometimes they make it a minute or two early. Signal timing is very light -- if the train driver is slightly too slow or waits slightly too long at the station, he will miss the green light.
Yes, LADOT is paranoid about their freeway ramps.
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Post by skater on Oct 12, 2013 14:40:50 GMT -8
Last time I rode expo (Thursday) it still stopped 2-3 times on flower st. and one of them was the freeway ramp. Does anyone know if LADOT has even planned to give expo full stoplight preference?
excuse my ignorance but what are the Hayden frogs? the part of expo west of Vermont feels like it could be faster.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 13, 2013 11:26:51 GMT -8
Last time I rode expo (Thursday) it still stopped 2-3 times on flower st. and one of them was the freeway ramp. Does anyone know if LADOT has even planned to give expo full stoplight preference? excuse my ignorance but what are the Hayden frogs? the part of expo west of Vermont feels like it could be faster. They've been talking to LADOT to get Expo more signal priority (longer green cycles etc.) or even full signal preemption but so far it hasn't worked. The part of Expo west of Vermont is mostly OK, except mainly for Farmdale 10 MPH speed limit imposed by the CPUC-mediated settlement with LAUSD. A rail frog is named after a horse frog. It's a V-shaped crossing between two rails, a special piece of trackwork to allow wheels to go in two different directions. Since an unmovable frog has a gap, it produces a clickety-clack sound. Someone living on Fay Ave complained about the noise coming from the frogs in the switch at Hayden Avenue in Culver City and there has been a 20 MPH speed restriction there since. They expect to replace the frog parts by the end of this year and to perhaps remove the speed restriction afterwards depending on the new noise readings.
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Post by skater on Oct 13, 2013 12:11:58 GMT -8
^ I see, so there are really 3 things slowing down phase 1 at them moment - the lack of signal preemption on flower st. - the farmdale 10 mph speed limit - the Hayden frogs speed limit
so do you think that the farmdale speed limit may be lifted? I am not familiar with the speed limits on the expo line, but I have noticed that the gold line reaches 55 mph line some streches of the ROW parrallel to fair oaks in Pasadena What is the potential top speed for expo west of vermont? down flower st? Last time I rode expo all the way to the end, it felt like it went nowhere near as fast as most of the Pasadena gold line.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 13, 2013 12:42:52 GMT -8
^ I see, so there are really 3 things slowing down phase 1 at them moment - the lack of signal preemption on flower st. - the farmdale 10 mph speed limit - the Hayden frogs speed limit so do you think that the farmdale speed limit may be lifted? I am not familiar with the speed limits on the expo line, but I have noticed that the gold line reaches 55 mph line some streches of the ROW parrallel to fair oaks in Pasadena What is the potential top speed for expo west of vermont? down flower st? Last time I rode expo all the way to the end, it felt like it went nowhere near as fast as most of the Pasadena gold line. They (LAUSD and Metro) would have to resettle. I think 25 MPH is the correct speed limit near Farmdale Ave. There is a full stop there anyway. On Flower St, the speed limit is mostly 35 MPH, except 25 MPH in the curved section north of Adams and in the USC Trench. On Exposition Blvd, it's 35 MPH east of Exposition/Rodeo and 55 MPH west of Exposition/Rodeo, except 25 MPH near Crenshaw, 10 MPH near Farmdale, and 45 MPH between the La Ciemega and Culver City Stations. Yes, I sometimes turn on the Google My Tracks app, and Expo trains do regularly hit 55 - 57 MPH in the sections between Exposition/Rodeo - Crenshaw and between La Brea - La Cienega, just like the Blue and Gold Lines in their 55 MPH zones. Green Line does 65 MPH, and Red and Purple Lines do 70 MPH.
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Post by skater on Oct 14, 2013 8:45:26 GMT -8
They (LAUSD and Metro) would have to resettle. I think 25 MPH is the correct speed limit near Farmdale Ave. There is a full stop there anyway. On Flower St, the speed limit is mostly 35 MPH, except 25 MPH in the curved section north of Adams and in the USC Trench. On Exposition Blvd, it's 35 MPH east of Exposition/Rodeo and 55 MPH west of Exposition/Rodeo, except 25 MPH near Crenshaw, 10 MPH near Farmdale, and 45 MPH between the La Ciemega and Culver City Stations. Yes, I sometimes turn on the Google My Tracks app, and Expo trains do regularly hit 55 - 57 MPH in the sections between Exposition/Rodeo - Crenshaw and between La Brea - La Cienega, just like the Blue and Gold Lines in their 55 MPH zones. Green Line does 65 MPH, and Red and Purple Lines do 70 MPH. So is it at all likely they will resettle? Does it make that much of a difference, because there is a a station there anyway? I have noticed that the ansaldobredas have two red lcd screens on the dashboard, the left shows the current speed and the right shows the speed limit for a section. When the driver goes over the limit the big screen on the right, (which tells you if it is coasting, braking, or accelerating) shows braking. example, the I-210 gold line section limit current speed 55 57
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Post by masonite on Oct 14, 2013 9:16:29 GMT -8
They (LAUSD and Metro) would have to resettle. I think 25 MPH is the correct speed limit near Farmdale Ave. There is a full stop there anyway. On Flower St, the speed limit is mostly 35 MPH, except 25 MPH in the curved section north of Adams and in the USC Trench. On Exposition Blvd, it's 35 MPH east of Exposition/Rodeo and 55 MPH west of Exposition/Rodeo, except 25 MPH near Crenshaw, 10 MPH near Farmdale, and 45 MPH between the La Ciemega and Culver City Stations. Yes, I sometimes turn on the Google My Tracks app, and Expo trains do regularly hit 55 - 57 MPH in the sections between Exposition/Rodeo - Crenshaw and between La Brea - La Cienega, just like the Blue and Gold Lines in their 55 MPH zones. Green Line does 65 MPH, and Red and Purple Lines do 70 MPH. So is it at all likely they will resettle? Does it make that much of a difference, because there is a a station there anyway? I have noticed that the ansaldobredas have two red lcd screens on the dashboard, the left shows the current speed and the right shows the speed limit for a section. When the driver goes over the limit the big screen on the right, (which tells you if it is coasting, braking, or accelerating) shows braking. example, the I-210 gold line section limit current speed 55 57 I would personally put the chances of LAUSD reconsidering this at slim and none.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 14, 2013 10:39:48 GMT -8
The speed limit near Farmdale definitely needs to be 25 MPH, not 10 MPH. The settled-on limit is 15 MPH but Metro ATP doesn't have that preset (only 10, 25, 35, 45, and 55 MPH) and 15 MPH defaults to 10 MPH as a result. By having 25 MPH, pedestrians and cars would wait less at those crossing gates; therefore, everybody would greatly benefit and safety wouldn't be compromised. To achieve this, there needs to be public, grassroots push and political support. Unfortunately Friends 4 Expo has got practically dissolved since Cheviot Hills NIMBYs were defeated and they aren't doing anything to improve the operations of the line.
Yes, Nippon Sharyo and Siemens ATPs work the same way, except there is no LCD display.
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Post by fissure on Oct 15, 2013 19:46:18 GMT -8
I can't fathom why someone would design a system like that to only have a few preset speeds and not take an arbitrary integer. It's like they went out of their way to make it more complicated and have less functionality.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 15, 2013 23:02:26 GMT -8
I can't fathom why someone would design a system like that to only have a few preset speeds and not take an arbitrary integer. It's like they went out of their way to make it more complicated and have less functionality. There are probably technical challenges in transmitting an arbitrary speed limit through the wireless coding system (loops placed on tracks with antennas on trains). Also, on older trains at least, there is a lighted button for each preset speed -- perhaps they ran out of buttons to have the 15 MPH. Another problem with the Farmdale speed limit is that the loop for the westbound track is placed way too far from the crossing and the trains needlessly crawl for a long time after they enter the crossing -- it's really silly. Once, kids on skateboards were making fun of the tortoiselike slowness of a westbound train. Eastbound trains aren't as problematic, as the loop is placed close to the crossing. The problem with the Expo Construction Authority is that they really don't care how the line is built -- they just want it to be built and built cheap. As long as the line is built, it's out of their minds. They put little thought into design details that make a difference.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 17, 2013 13:42:18 GMT -8
Expo September 2013 ridership is 27,269 -- slightly down from August. This is why these numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. There is very little chance for the September ridership to be smaller than August, given the start of the school season.
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Post by fissure on Oct 17, 2013 22:17:27 GMT -8
There are probably technical challenges in transmitting an arbitrary speed limit through the wireless coding system (loops placed on tracks with antennas on trains). Also, on older trains at least, there is a lighted button for each preset speed -- perhaps they ran out of buttons to have the 15 MPH. Maybe I don't understand how archaic these systems are, but unless you're using analog signaling (in which case come on, it's 2013!) there's plenty of bandwidth to transfer 8 bits to give you 0-255 instead of 3 bits for 5 presets. It should just be a software change, unless they're crazy and using ASICs when microcontrollers are already so cheap. Why isn't Metro in charge of building it and the GLFE, anyway? Just general "nobody trusts Metro" from the Red Line days?
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 18, 2013 8:56:34 GMT -8
There are probably technical challenges in transmitting an arbitrary speed limit through the wireless coding system (loops placed on tracks with antennas on trains). Also, on older trains at least, there is a lighted button for each preset speed -- perhaps they ran out of buttons to have the 15 MPH. Maybe I don't understand how archaic these systems are, but unless you're using analog signaling (in which case come on, it's 2013!) there's plenty of bandwidth to transfer 8 bits to give you 0-255 instead of 3 bits for 5 presets. It should just be a software change, unless they're crazy and using ASICs when microcontrollers are already so cheap. Why isn't Metro in charge of building it and the GLFE, anyway? Just general "nobody trusts Metro" from the Red Line days? I don't know the bandwidth or carrier frequency but i believe both are pretty low. Typical ATP systems have a bandwidth of only a few hertz and a carrier frequency of 60 Hz and they allow only 5 speed codes. AM modulation of the carrier sine wave is typically used -- no digital modulation of the carrier sine wave. Even with digital modulation, you wouldn't be able to put too much data on a 60 Hz carrier sine wave. Also, as I said before, the ATP consoles on the trains have only five manual buttons, regardless of how much bandwidth there is. To make the things even more complicated, the carrier frequencies on the Nippon Sharyo and Siemens trains are different, causing interference. They had a lot of problem with ATP and it wasn't fixed until long after the line opened. Until they fixed it, trains would frequently stall in random places. The subcontractor who did the ATP work was very incompetent. I don't think we really need arbitrary preset speeds but a 15 MPH preset would be good if they had it. Unfortunately, the 5 speed presets are 10, 25, 35, 45, and 55 MPH, withe the 15 MPH necessarily skipped. In all honesty, they don't really need speed restriction through the Farmdale crossing as the trains come to a full stop there. even with full throttle, the train wouldn't reach more than 25 MPH in the 135 ft distance through the crossing.
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Post by skater on Dec 3, 2013 18:13:25 GMT -8
on Saturday the times ran an article on the way metro counts ridership. www.latimes.com/local/la-me-metro-ridership-20131130,0,5777454.story#axzz2mKgAxi9S the times article says that the count for the gates shows a decrease, while metro counts an increase in ridership since the gates have latched. I think that this can be explained by the fact that fare evaders don't go through the gates anymore because they are latched.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 3, 2013 21:29:34 GMT -8
I don't believe the Metro ridership estimates at all.
Lately (since September or so), Expo Line ridership has been dismal. Even during rush hour, there are many seats available. On top of that, many of the Expo Line riders these days are transit-dependent people, who apparently switched from the buses. The rider demographics was quite different when the line first opened.
My estimate for the Expo Line ridership right now is more like 20,000. It's much less than it was a year ago.
Well, all it means is that there is a lot to be done in Los Angeles to encourage the use of public transit: speeding up existing lines, more frequent service, better and more frequent bus connections, more rail lines, gas tax, driving tax, toll roads, etc. are things I can think of.
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Post by TransportationZ on Dec 4, 2013 8:02:43 GMT -8
I don't believe the Metro ridership estimates at all. Lately (since September or so), Expo Line ridership has been dismal. Even during rush hour, there are many seats available. On top of that, many of the Expo Line riders these days are transit-dependent people, who apparently switched from the buses. The rider demographics was quite different when the line first opened. My estimate for the Expo Line ridership right now is more like 20,000. It's much less than it was a year ago. Well, all it means is that there is a lot to be done in Los Angeles to encourage the use of public transit: speeding up existing lines, more frequent service, better and more frequent bus connections, more rail lines, gas tax, driving tax, toll roads, etc. are things I can think of. Not too surprised honestly. The line is so slow that in many cases it's faster and less hassle to take the DASH into downtown. If an operator misses the sync going eastbound/northbound you almost have to stop at every light. Also, to be honest, the line also too incomplete. Other than recreation, this line basically relies on transfers to buses because there is literally nothing around the station. During rush hour it is only useful going to downtown LA. It suffers from the same issues as the eastside gold. Even though it hits the heart of the Eastside, it's so slow that it's almost faster to take a rapid bus down Caesar Chavez. Also, like the Expo Line, it's too incomplete. If you coming from further east, it's faster/easier just to stay on your the bus you started your trip with, since that bus goes to downtown anyway. Even if the bus is slower, you save another fare. This plagues the entire LA Rail system as a whole. People are surprised when I tell them that Metrolink ridership from Montclair is relatively low with even with all the bus connections. Why to take Metrolink, when 699 only costs flat $5 and takes you directly to the door step of your work? If you take the train you would have to walk through union only to get a DASH bus to get your work. Then why take Metrolink if you need to go to Pasadena? Take the 690. Honestly I think half of Metrolink riders(at least on the SB line) would switch if they had a similar 699/690 bus from their station. So far we are doing are poor job competing with our own buses.
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Post by simonla on Dec 4, 2013 8:20:51 GMT -8
I don't believe the Metro ridership estimates at all. Lately (since September or so), Expo Line ridership has been dismal. Even during rush hour, there are many seats available. On top of that, many of the Expo Line riders these days are transit-dependent people, who apparently switched from the buses. The rider demographics was quite different when the line first opened. My estimate for the Expo Line ridership right now is more like 20,000. It's much less than it was a year ago. Well, all it means is that there is a lot to be done in Los Angeles to encourage the use of public transit: speeding up existing lines, more frequent service, better and more frequent bus connections, more rail lines, gas tax, driving tax, toll roads, etc. are things I can think of. While I appreciate your observations, it's just as much conjecture as Metro's ridership numbers.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 4, 2013 10:40:09 GMT -8
What had also surprised me with the Metro ridership estimates was that when the school season started, the numbers didn't change. You would think that there would be a big increase. It's an indication, along with my observation that trains have more free seats, that the Expo ridership has been on a decrease. Perhaps the low gas prices is a factor.
If they really want to know the exact number, they could have someone at every station all day and count.
It's true that many Dash riders ($0.60) and USC-union-station-shuttle riders ($0.00) didn't switch to the Expo Line. In fact, I know at least one shuttle rider with a Metro pass who takes the Gold Line but prefers the shuttle to Expo Line because of the double transfer and walk to the Red Line.
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