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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Sept 27, 2012 6:04:31 GMT -8
After the connector opens, formerly disconnected lines will merge and change. This thread deals with what the "new" combined lines will be called. Will they maintain their color designations, be given a route number, letter, destination? What's the consensus? As for route numbers, what happens when two routes merge? Do they keep the old or new number - or get a new one? What do bus lines do? Check out this highly detailed new map of the project on wikipedia. Is it correct as far as anyone knows? Someone named Kriston Lewis spent a lot of time on it - but I'm not sure if this is what's planned. Regional Connector Map (link to creator's post)Click below to see map full size: Attachments:
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Post by TransportationZ on Sept 27, 2012 6:52:39 GMT -8
Overall, the map is the correct plan. Blue Line finally gets it's Pasadena segment it was originally planned to have to begin with. Expo Line gets the East LA extension, thus form 1 continuous N-S and 1 continuous E-W line.
Although I'm nitpicking, I do not understand why he put "To Monclair" for the Blue line headed north, but didn't put "To UCLA/Westwood" for the Purple Line on the left. I would think the Purple Extension will be done long before ANOTHER Gold Line Extension to Montclair.
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Post by carter on Sept 27, 2012 21:14:20 GMT -8
The general concept in the Wikipedia picture is right: the current plan is to have a N-S line and an E-W line. That said, I don't think even Metro knows if they will be called Blue/Gold or something entirely different.
I think they did a real nice job. It's much clearer than many of the maps I've seen, although I think it would be helpful to show the Washington Blvd junction where the SM/LBC lines branch, just for reference.
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 28, 2012 10:28:01 GMT -8
They could easily have colors, depending on what routes are actually run.
I guarantee they WONT just run Long Beach - Montclair Santa Monica - East LA
It would be foolish to have every train run from Long Beach to San Bernandino, or wherever the gold line eventually ends up terminating.
You need to run service based on demand. Trips on the current blue line are more in demand than trips on the gold line. And once you get past Pasadena, ridership will drop off even further.
Point is, if you need 6 minute headways in long beach, you dont need that same frequency in Montclair.
So you run different colors.
Blue = Long Beach to Pasadena, every 6 minutes Gold = Montclair to 7th every 20 minutes
The point isnt in the details, its in running different types of service on the same line.
That can be done with letters AND colors (like Boston) or colors only (like DC).
Color/letter combos work well for short turn trips.
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Post by ieko on Sept 28, 2012 11:04:47 GMT -8
They could easily have colors, depending on what routes are actually run. I guarantee they WONT just run Long Beach - Montclair Santa Monica - East LA It would be foolish to have every train run from Long Beach to San Bernandino, or wherever the gold line eventually ends up terminating. You need to run service based on demand. Trips on the current blue line are more in demand than trips on the gold line. And once you get past Pasadena, ridership will drop off even further. Point is, if you need 6 minute headways in long beach, you dont need that same frequency in Montclair. So you run different colors. Blue = Long Beach to Pasadena, every 6 minutes Gold = Montclair to 7th every 20 minutes The point isnt in the details, its in running different types of service on the same line. That can be done with letters AND colors (like Boston) or colors only (like DC). Color/letter combos work well for short turn trips. Their intention isn't to run every train all the way, that's true, however they do intend to keep them the same name while instituting short lines. So, some Blue Line trains will end in Downtown LA, some will go all the way to Montclair.
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Post by gatewaygent on Sept 28, 2012 13:10:58 GMT -8
I made mention of using color in combination with letters/numbers in the old message board. Back then there was no East L.A. Gold Line or Expo Line or impending Regional Connector. As an example of how it would work; and I really don't need to put the example, but I'm going to anyways:
Long Beach to Montclair/ONT = Blue-0 Line Long Beach to Pasadena = Blue-1 Line Long Beach to LAUS = Blue-3 Line Montclair/ONT to 7th/Metro = Blue-2 Line Montclair/ONT to Pasadena = Blue-4 Line Pasadena to 7th/Metro = Blue-5 Line
Truthfully the permutations could go on, but I've already exaggerated with these 6 possibilities on just the Blue Line proper. Could there be Long Beach to East L.A. or Pasadena to Santa Monica? It remains to be seen. I do know one thing: it's only going to get more complicated.
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Post by bobdavis on Sept 28, 2012 21:03:58 GMT -8
We'll all have to see how this shakes out when the rails are laid and the wire is strung, but considering that for many years we didn't have ANY rail lines to analyze, I'm glad it's getting more complicated.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 11, 2012 2:11:53 GMT -8
first of all, I really do hope that the Blue Line gets "dibs" on keeping its color; it is eldest secondly, when I hear talk of Blue Line trains from Long Beach to San Bernardino, I am reminded of the Tokyo map, where the lines at the edge say "Thru to MITAKA" however, I would hope that the Metro Rail map would be able to accommodate the simplicity of one single blue line from Long Beach to Montclair* (and any future extensions beyond that would get the "line continues" arrow)... (* solid blue at both ends, that is, with blue and gold in the Connector middle) for that matter, applying Occam's Razor to transit, you could just have all Blue Line trains be labeled "Blue Line" and just change the front header signs as necessary, with destinations as Long Beach, Pasadena, Azusa, Montclair. And the station signs: Next Train To X in Y Minutes
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Oct 11, 2012 9:37:12 GMT -8
Message from map creator (at thread start-above):I've read through the thread. I've registered for an (Transit Coalition) account, but it said something about it having to be approved. I'll respond here:
The Purple Line isn't scheduled to reach Westwood until 2030. The Regional Connector should be open around 2020. A Montclair extension should be wrapped up within that time frame. I'm went by the MTA's estimates which is why I picked those destinations.
The Silver Line will be included in the final version. Other bus service won't be on this map, it wouldn't serve any purpose. I am however in the process of drafting a county-wide system map in a style similar to that used in New York that includes both bus and rail.
I'm aware that they're moving towards letters. The problem is other than the Expo Line, none of the lines have them (they do have numbers, and they're used semi-publicly by the MTA but I doubt they'll use them in a primary sense).
Thanks for the responses. They're very much appreciated. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 11, 2012 12:43:45 GMT -8
Message from map creator (at thread start-above):I've read through the thread. I've registered for an (Transit Coalition) account, but it said something about it having to be approved. I'll respond here:
The Purple Line isn't scheduled to reach Westwood until 2030. The Regional Connector should be open around 2020. A Montclair extension should be wrapped up within that time frame. I'm went by the MTA's estimates which is why I picked those destinations.
The Silver Line will be included in the final version. Other bus service won't be on this map, it wouldn't serve any purpose. I am however in the process of drafting a county-wide system map in a style similar to that used in New York that includes both bus and rail.
I'm aware that they're moving towards letters. The problem is other than the Expo Line, none of the lines have them (they do have numbers, and they're used semi-publicly by the MTA but I doubt they'll use them in a primary sense).
Thanks for the responses. They're very much appreciated. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC) Isn't the Expo Line a "temporary line". It will be Gold Line eventually, so why even the letter concern? Chicago and other world-wide cities use colors. Heck, London uses a random "Jubilee, Circle, District, Picadilly, etc..." Lines that are not even destinations, but just branding. I think it's too much New York "empathy" when people talk about letters for rail lines. New York is New York, and LA can be LA (like Chicago).
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 11, 2012 17:39:05 GMT -8
The map creator has optimistic dates. Unless Measure J passes the connector won't even start until 2019 and then finishes 2025. And the purple line won't reach Westwood until 2036.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 12, 2012 6:37:02 GMT -8
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Post by numble on Oct 12, 2012 9:00:17 GMT -8
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 12, 2012 9:18:29 GMT -8
I saw that same projection yesterday while reading through the latest Subway Extension files. This has me wondering if Metro isn't trying to "scare" people into voting for measure J. Given the current growing ridership of the light rail lines, it would be nearly BEYOND COMPREHENSION if Metro didn't do everything in it's power to get the RC finished by 2019, regardless of whether Measure J passes or not. RT
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Post by masonite on Oct 12, 2012 11:47:45 GMT -8
I saw that same projection yesterday while reading through the latest Subway Extension files. This has me wondering if Metro isn't trying to "scare" people into voting for measure J. Given the current growing ridership of the light rail lines, it would be nearly BEYOND COMPREHENSION if Metro didn't do everything in it's power to get the RC finished by 2019, regardless of whether Measure J passes or not. RT I think a little of that may be going on. Remember due to portions of America Fast Forward passing Congress, that means that a portion of our projects can be accelerated. I would hope the Regional Connector would be at the top of the list. I worry that Measure J is being used to cover Measure R shortfalls. They are saying that Measure J money cannot be used until after 10 years or 2049 for new projects. That makes it seem as if there is quite a shortfall in projected Measure R funds.
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Post by JerardWright on Oct 12, 2012 14:39:43 GMT -8
I saw that same projection yesterday while reading through the latest Subway Extension files. This has me wondering if Metro isn't trying to "scare" people into voting for measure J. Given the current growing ridership of the light rail lines, it would be nearly BEYOND COMPREHENSION if Metro didn't do everything in it's power to get the RC finished by 2019, regardless of whether Measure J passes or not. RT I think a little of that may be going on. Remember due to portions of America Fast Forward passing Congress, that means that a portion of our projects can be accelerated. I would hope the Regional Connector would be at the top of the list. I worry that Measure J is being used to cover Measure R shortfalls. They are saying that Measure J money cannot be used until after 10 years or 2049 for new projects. That makes it seem as if there is quite a shortfall in projected Measure R funds. That is used for the accelerating the funding to pay off the loans and getting a better return on the investment on the loans, capitalizing on the TIFIA program. If we were to use private loans and have no Measure J then there will be a significant shortfall as the interest rates on the borrowing would be higher negating the benefits of accelerating the projects. Pay as you go would increase simply drive up the costs of the projects through inflation and not capitalizing on economies of scale such as with the Wilshire Subway of continuing the TBMs all the way through instead of segments.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 12, 2012 15:41:59 GMT -8
I saw that same projection yesterday while reading through the latest Subway Extension files. This has me wondering if Metro isn't trying to "scare" people into voting for measure J. Given the current growing ridership of the light rail lines, it would be nearly BEYOND COMPREHENSION if Metro didn't do everything in it's power to get the RC finished by 2019, regardless of whether Measure J passes or not. RT The dates for all of the projects have been all over the place depending on which Metro document you read and what assumptions are being made. However I think that the official connector date (without 30/10 or Measure J) has always been 2025. When they listed earlier dates I think that those came with the assumption that either 30/10 would happen or that some additional federal funding would be forthcoming. But now that they have a chance for additional local tax revenue it is advantageous for them to list the later dates. So I don't think that they are necessarily scaring people, but they are listing official dates and not wishful thinking.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 12, 2012 16:32:47 GMT -8
The following is from a 10-3-12 notice posted in the "Construction Notices" section for the regional connector project: The Regional Connector Transit Corridor Project will extend Light Rail Transit (LRT) tracks 1.9 miles underground through Downtown Los Angeles, connecting the Metro Gold, Blue, and Expo lines. The project also includes the construction of three new stations located at 1st/Central, 2nd/Broadway, and 2nd/Hope. Utility relocation activities are expected to begin in September 2012, with construction of the Regional Connector beginning in late 2013. Anticipated project completion is 2019.Now, I know that dates that Metro throws around tend to fluctuate, with the above being a prime example since the newer info that was linked to previously here shows a 2025 date, with Measure J allowing a 2019 completion date. Having said that, for goodness sake they are already doing utility relocation for the RC! So based on that either one of two things is going to happen. If Measure J passes, then they continue the work and finish in 2019. If Measure J fails, then they presumably stop whatever work has been done, then resume in something like 6 years? Thats pretty crazy, especially when you look at what is going to happen when Expo Phase 2 opens up... RT
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 12, 2012 22:10:28 GMT -8
Measure R only allocated $160 million to the Regional Connector, keep that in mind; for this $1.2 billion project. The money difference comes from the State and Federal New Starts funding. As the project has a high cost effectiveness rating, the State and New Starts will pick up most of the tab, so I don't think Measure J will change much for the Regional Connector.
It's the Westside Subway Extension and I-405 pass which will be significantly accelerated with Measure J.
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Post by wad on Oct 13, 2012 4:34:11 GMT -8
I think it's too much New York "empathy" when people talk about letters for rail lines. New York is New York, and LA can be LA (like Chicago). Metro has internal line/route codes for rail lines; all are in the 800 series. We could just as easily use those to be different -- take the 801 to Long Beach. But you'd want something to set rail apart from buses, right? So you'd need an alternative naming convention. Colors are one. There are just limits to how many you can effectively use, and the number is fewer than letters (26 unique, 23 effective if you take out I, O and X). And no, you can't use Crayola or Pantone names as effective color names.
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Post by ieko on Oct 13, 2012 11:20:10 GMT -8
There was actually a brief moment where Metro was putting letters on train schedules.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 17, 2012 11:56:30 GMT -8
Let's shelve the Measure J debate for somewhere else. That is not what this topic is about. Here is the name/color I would like Metro to adopt; I think it makes the most sense: 1. Rail lines should have a single color assigned to it on the map regardless of short line or branches 2. Train services should have a single letter name to denote full length, short line, or branches 3. The combination of color and letters logo would appear in similar type on signs/maps to the current Expo line logo upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/LACMTA_Circle_Expo_Line.svgNow substitute different letters and colors, so in practice, this is what it may look like... Blue circle would consist of: - B Train (Long Beach to Downtown) [note, "B" chosen to coincide with legacy "Blue Line" name] - L Train (Long Beach to Azusa) [note: "L" chosen to denote "Long Beach" terminal, although "S" may work as well for "San Gabriel Valley" or "F" for Foothill... lots of options] Gold circle would consist of: - E Train (Santa Monica to East LA) [note "E" chosen to coincide with legacy "Expo Line" name in the West Side portion, and "East LA" terminal] Purple circle would consist of: - W Train (Union Station to Westwood) [note: "W" chosen to coincide with Wilshire Blvd, the main corridor of service] Red circle would consist of: - H Train (Union Station to North Hollywood) [note "H" chosen to coincide with Hollywood Blvd, the main corridor of service, although "R" train to coincide with legacy "Red Line" name is ok too] Green circle would consist of: - G Train (Norwalk to LAX) [note "G" chosen to coincide with legacy "Green Line" name] Brown circle (or pink?) would consist of: - C Train (Mid City to Torrance) [note "C" chosen to denote "Crenshaw Blvd", the main corridor of service] - A Train (Mid City to LAX) [note "A" chosen to denote LAX "Airport", the main destination and terminal of service] This system is also flexible enough to accommodate Metro's BRT service Silver circle would consist of: - S Line (El Monte to Downtown) [note "S" chosen to coincide with legacy "Silver Line" name, and denote San Gabriel Valley] - Y Line (El Monte to Harbor Gateway) [any letter will do...] Orange circle would consist of: - V Line (Warner Center to North Hollywood) [note "V" chosen to denote San Fernando "Valley", or Ventura Blvd, the closest corridor of service] - Z Line (Chatsworth to North Hollywood)
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Post by gatewaygent on Oct 17, 2012 21:45:48 GMT -8
Hmm? The only problem I can foresee with the letters is that they're finite. I like the system I had come up with (see Replay #5 above) where the color name remains in the designation, but the number tells you which segment is running. How about a happy medium where I combine elements of mine and yours as follows:
Blue Line A = LB to Montclair/ONT Blue Line B = LB to Pas Blue Line C = LB to LAUS ----------- Gold Line A = Santa Mon to East L.A. Gold Line B = Santa Mon to 7th/Metro Gold Line C = East L.A. to 7th/Metro
It took a little figuring, but I get what you've accomplished. it's logical, respectable, and I can appreciate it for what it is. I don't foresee Metro coming up with 26 individual routes in my lifetime unless Metro approves 20 projects tomorrow so there's no danger of running out of letters any time soon. However, I feel as though we're married to the color schematic now and there's no turning back. It's going to be hard enough re-designating the Pasadena Gold Line to Pasadena Blue Line when the time comes. Throw in a letter designation without spelling out "Blue," "Green," "Copper," "Pink," or what have you and it's going to turn off a lot of riders who are used to seeing the color name spelled out for them. But I could be wrong; it wouldn't be the first time....
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Post by bobdavis on Oct 20, 2012 13:58:04 GMT -8
And Pacific Electric ran for nearly 60 years with roll signs and dash signs, no numbers, letters or colors. Of course, that was back before "consultants" came on the scene, and back when people were assumed to have some common sense.
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Post by Elson on Nov 6, 2012 4:08:19 GMT -8
There was actually a brief moment where Metro was putting letters on train schedules. That "Brief Moment" was something like 5 years. It never really caught on. Even if they market the hell out of the Letter Name lines, people will still default to calling them "Blue Line," "Red Line" et al. There are still NYers who call their trains "IRT," "BMT," etc. even though those designations were officially obsolete for decades.
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Post by Elson on Nov 6, 2012 4:12:34 GMT -8
And Pacific Electric ran for nearly 60 years with roll signs and dash signs, no numbers, letters or colors. Of course, that was back before "consultants" came on the scene, and back when people were assumed to have some common sense. ...BUT the LARy Yellow Cars in the very same era DID use both letters and numbers to designate their lines
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Post by bobdavis on Nov 7, 2012 11:33:03 GMT -8
I'm not sure why LARy used numbers for some lines and letters for others; I vaguely recall that the "5" line (Eagle Rock to Hawthorne, one of the longest streetcar lines anywhere) was the "E" for a time, which would be logical, because many LARy lines took their letters from the streets where they ran ("P" ran on Pico, "V" ran on Vernon and Vermont). Today's Metro light rail lines are much more like PE interurban routes than LA streetcar lines; indeed, the Gold Line Foothill extension will be more like an electric-suburban operation, with only one or two stops at each city along the way. As an illustration, the PE line to Glendora had half a dozen stops between Arcadia and Monrovia, while the Gold Line with "run express" between those towns.
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Post by transitfan on Nov 8, 2012 7:38:01 GMT -8
That was strange (LARy using letters and numbers). A few of those numbers lasted into the bus era (the 5 lasted until 1983, when it became the current 40). And the 3 was a trolley route (until 1947), then a trolley bus route (until 1963) then a motor bus route until 1981, when it was broken up into the 16 (W. 3rd St segment), 18 (W 6th St segment) and 53 (Central Ave segment). At the same time, a brand new line 3 was started on Sunset Blvd, then down Beverly Drive to Beverly Hills. It ran with the 2 which went straight out Sunset to PCH (with a detour around UCLA). I think the 3 went away a few years ago, but the 2 remains.
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Post by gatewaygent on Nov 8, 2012 12:08:56 GMT -8
We're "married" to the color schematic and we will be for a while to come. Maybe once the LA Street Car is up and running and it starts branching out to South L.A. and East L.A. it may change. I figure, however, that once the Street Car has branched out, if, for example MTA bus line 66 on Olympic Bl. became a Street Car route, why not simply keep it as MTA Street Car Line 66? I don't picture street car lines in South L.A. going past the Green Line or in East L.A. going past Atlantic Av. or Garfield Av.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 8, 2012 18:01:26 GMT -8
We're "married" to the color schematic and we will be for a while to come. Maybe once the LA Street Car is up and running and it starts branching out to South L.A. and East L.A. it may change. I figure, however, that once the Street Car has branched out, if, for example MTA bus line 66 on Olympic Bl. became a Street Car route, why not simply keep it as MTA Street Car Line 66? I don't picture street car lines in South L.A. going past the Green Line or in East L.A. going past Atlantic Av. or Garfield Av. I don't think you'll see any streetcars go west of Vermont Avenue, east of the east LA freeway interchange, south of the I-10 freeway or north of the LA river. The implementation costs are too high to go outside of urban cores. Olympic blvd has a better chance of getting light rail or a subway than a streetcar.
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