Post by JerardWright on Mar 10, 2007 12:08:53 GMT -8
If you could design and build the stations for the Downtown Connector. Where would you place them and why?
P.S: I've been tinkering with this plan for about a while, I might have posted here at a different thread but I can't find it.
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If this is planned right this shouldn't cost too much money and minimize potential impacts.
Stations for Downtown Connector:
-7TH STREET * Platform extention
-BUNKER HILL
-CIVIC CENTER/GRAND AVENUE
-LITTLE TOKYO
What I'm thinking now is first extend the platform at 7th St Metro about 100' for longer 4 car trains then run north on Flower to First Street. Station at 4th/5th Streets, "BUNKER HILL" easy to do cause there's nothing but bloody parking structures there anyways so who cares. Station entrances can be connected with the existing structures like 505 Flower or the Citigroup building. This tunnel and station and can be done to a new method where all they would need to build are connections to the other entrances. This can be explained at the Civic Center station.
Turning deep below the Disney Hall from Flower to First with a CIVIC CENTER station between Grand/Olive and Hill Streets with small station portals at the following locations Grand Avenue development, the Park for the demolished County Courthouse and the existing Red Line 1st/Hill portal(creating another transfer to the Red Line) so that the development can still go on as planned in case the politics get in the way and prepare for future construction that is minor in disruption. The way tunnel construction has improved can even allow this tunnel to be mined like the one they did in Dallas Cityplace Station. They used the TBM's to bore the train tubes then mined along side of it creating a second tube which is then connected together to the other portals so the Mezzanine is essentially a large extension of the platform which can allow for future expansion for longer trains.
Continuining down First Street, the tunnel will turn about 30-45 degrees and shoot Northeast under the eventual demolished Parker Center and existing erector-set parking structures on San Pedro/Temple. Also at this section the two track tunnels will become a two level, four track junction in order to serve the new Little Tokyo/City Hall/Artist District station will be located between these two sites to reduce mitigation needed if the station were built on First Street in Little Tokyo.
The design of this station in my mind will be split level and side platforms on both levels. The upper level will work like the West Portal station in San Francisco where it's partially underground in one end and at-grade at the other end. This platform can double as the mezzanine.
The Pasadena/SG Valley trains will use this upper level so that it can quickly use the existing elevated guideway over the 101.
The lower level will be completely underground accessed from directly above the upper level side platform/mezzanine. Here the East LA bound trains will be located on this level so that they can continue straight down Temple curve under the NE 1st/Alameda parcel and portal before the foot of the LA River.
A little mitigation is needed for the tracks to allow trains to be re-routed around this new train portal.
Access to this station can be achieved from 3 locations: San Pedro, the end of Central Avenue (currently the Geffen Contemporary parking lot) and Temple/Alameda.
This helps add to maintain the walkable charm of the area currently disrupted by parking lots so that you stroll throught the museums and plazas in Little Tokyo on route to the subway station, it's convienent for City Hall users cause it's only a block away. It's good for Artist District users since they only have to go one more block. It will also minimize disruption to the new residents on 1st/Alameda and the near-by Buddhist Temple an important aspect when building this.
AW
User ID: 0944964 Oct 19th 2:14 PM
I just moved into Downtown and am checking out some of these discussions for the Downtown Connector. Perhaps it's because I am new here, but what is the purpose of the Downtown Connector? Isn't it just replicating the service of the Red Line subway from Union Station to 7th/Metro?
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Oct 19th 2:32 PM
NO, the main reason is a one seat ride and prevents up to 2 transfers, which could add 40 minutes to your trip going through downtown and missing connections. The last two times I had a downtown meeting at 7th and Fig, when I left the meeting, taking the Red Line to Union Station arrived at the same time the Gold Line was pulling out giving me almost the maximum wait. Now if I started at Staples center and just missed the Red Line...
Plus the DTC will allow easier movement of cars between all system, they will not have to be trucked.
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Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Oct 19th 2:53 PM
Well first congratulations! I'm a resident near Downtown as well.
To answer the question: No, not entirely.
The connector will serve a different area of Downtown directly serving Bunker Hill, City Hall and Litte Tokyo currently not reached easily by the Red Line. The main purpose is to interline the existing Blue and Gold Lines together with the under construction East LA and Expo Lines.
Now and in the future, there is an operational constraint at the 7th Street Metro Center station where during rush hour Blue Line trains operate very frequently and that there's isn't time for trains to switch tracks and go back in the other direction, since the layout of the station is done with separate platforms. When Expo is up and running in 2010 this problem is magnified with two busy lines running through frequently.
The split platform layout precluded the need for a connector since the original concept was to have the Pasadena and Long Beach trains form one line.
Another aspect is to eliminate transfers to the Red Line in order to gain more riders by delivering them directly to their destinations.
One of the problems that the Gold Line is currently not serving many of the workers who work on Bunker Hill. This also means users would benefit from a quicker trip to get to events at Staples Center or any other area along the Expo or Blue Line.
Another side benefit is that every light rail line wouldn't need a massive maintenance yard and shop devoted to that line. The MTA has one large yard in Carson/Long Beach and another one being built on the Gold Line extension to Azusa. Each yard covers a minimium of 20 acres. That valuable space has more potential for Transit oriented development.
Ken Alpern
User ID: 9697893 Oct 19th 10:31 PM
Jerard and Robert state their descriptions well, and Jerard in particular has done a great job championing this long overdue Downtown Connector.
Downtown is easily big enough for two subways, and we have four light rails "connecting" to Downtown that don't connect either to each other or to City Hall.
Hopefully, that should help sum it up. The details are as well-stated by Jerard as I think anyone ever could...including the huge bit about maintenance yards.
Webmaster rl
User ID: 1676554 Dec 12th 9:45 AM
Moved from:
"MTA Green Line Light Rail / Lincoln Blvd. News or Developments" thread.
Webmaster rl
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 11th 12:17 AM
I think that connector plan is still on the back burner behind the Expo phase 2, Wilshire subway extension, and Goldline Foothill extension.
I don't think this round of funding will cover it. Maybe 2020 ? Who knows, maybe the demand will be enough to justify it.
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Frustrated Murrieta
User_ID: 0896204 {=} Dec 11th 12:25 AM
By downtown connector, do you mean the tunnel to connect the Blue Line with the Gold Line, or is it more than that?
What's the estimated cost to dig this tunnel?
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 11th 12:35 AM
Yes the Gold to Blue, I thought it was like 650 million with no new stations. But do enough people make the transfer from Gold to Blue right now ?
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Joel C
User_ID: 9168243 {=} Dec 11th 1:11 AM
The most recent MTA study I've seen (earlier this summer, I believe) showed that the Downtown Connector is by far the most effective use of transit dollars. Effectiveness was measured in terms of ridership per dollar and ridership per mile. The $650 million figure includes 2-3 stations.
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Jerard
User_ID: 8234713 {=} Dec 11th 2:55 AM
"Yes the Gold to Blue, I thought it was like 650 million with no new stations. But do enough people make the transfer from Gold to Blue right now ? "
It's not just for Gold to Blue but for the future Expo and Eastside Lines to relieve potential service delays at the 7th St station.
It allows for our system to use the larger Maintenance shops and yards in Long Beach and Irwindale (future) for the Foothill Gold Line and existing small yard in Chinatown. Saving more space/acres for development around stations rather than for facilities since it requires a large area.
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Ken Alpern
User_ID: 1696934 {=} Dec 11th 8:12 AM
My understanding is that the Downtown Connector will precede just about everything following Expo except the already-planned Crenshaw project.
I do not think that the Subway, which really requires a full extension to Century City to be politically attractive, can overcome all the political forces that would appreciate the Downtown Connector.
Even the SGV folks appreciate the Downtown Connector, because it potentiates their current Gold Line's ridership, and might enhance the interest in extending the Gold Line to the future Irwindale rail yard.
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Mark
User_ID: 0310794 {=} Dec 12th 12:09 AM
Why not just send the gold line down Alameda (I think that the name of street) and connect it with the blue line and run in straight to LB or have it make the west turn on the current street and then the right turn on Flower like the Expo will do. I don't think we need a downtown connector. Heck even NYC has a shuttle subway that connect a the red and green lines.
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Crzwdjk
User_ID: 7747523 {=} Dec 12th 1:11 AM
Because the point of the Downtown Connector is at least partly to get the Gold Line actually into Downtown, and the Blue Line to the Civic Center and Union Station areas. And the Times Square Shuttle is only there because the original IRT subway ran down Broadway, 42nd St, and Park Ave, but was later reconfigured into the "H" system, with the Broadway-7th Ave line (1,2,3 trains) and the Lexington-Park Ave South line (4,5,6) leaving the section along 42nd street to become a shuttle.
And I guess the best NYC analogue of what you're proposing is if the A and C didn't run through downtown and you had to take the F train from Jay Street to West 4th and go back down on the E.
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 12th 1:42 AM
Does the Downtown connector need to run completely underground like a subway?
There might be some places where at grade or even elevated running can be accomodated, like 1st st. or Temple.
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Frustrated Murrieta
User_ID: 0896204 {=} Dec 12th 1:48 AM
Why not do a cheap at grade downtown connector and replace it with a subway when the money is available?
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 12th 1:58 AM
Once the line is built, it's set. Besides you don't want to build the same line twice. Taxpayers will be in an uproar, gotta do it right the first time. Or don't do it at all.
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Bart Reed
User_ID: 0603144 {=} Dec 12th 2:12 AM
The issue with the downtown connector will be the density of trains. Any attempt to put this out with surface traffic is asking for disaster.
Last year, on a harbor transitway bus going to Union Station, it took close to an hour to go from 7th / Flower to LAUS, due to ordinary congestion. The mistake of surface routing is something you commonly see on surface rail lines such as Spadina in Toronto. Have you ever seen 10 street cars bunched up?
With the downtown lines branching out each about 14 miles from downtown, running on the surface will be an extraordinary disaster if an exact schedule can't be kept.
So, the Downtown Regional Connector must be grade separated.
?--?--?
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Ken Alpern
User_ID: 1696934 {=} Dec 12th 8:08 AM
Whitman and Bart are right-on, and I recommend the others take note.
We've got four light rail lines diverging into Downtown at a time when Downtown development is booming, and at a time when the Red Line Subway cannot possibly handle every single one of the current and new transfers needed when the Expo and Eastside light rail lines open in 2009-2010.
Furthermore, the Silver and Bronze Busway Lines also will need this Connector as well.
Any way to do things cheaper is nice, but if we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot for short-term ease then it will be a bad end for a light rail effort that has begun when the Blue Line opened.
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Kings Fan
User_ID: 2114994 {=} Dec 12th 9:08 AM
Will the Regional Connector create new downtown stations or perhaps make use of the cavernous but existing Red Line Stations ? Is there a potential for cost savings here ?
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Robert
User_ID: 1676554 {=} Dec 12th 9:24 AM
The geometry of where the Red/Purple and Blue[/EXPO] lines meet really means they cannot share the same route which is good. Although the lines will be close, they still will serve different stations at different locations.
Although many east/west streets have been looked at. And the conscience seems to be 1st street - my selection would be to use Temple and where the tracks meet the Gold Line Create a wye with three stations, Disney Hall/Museums/Music Center/Court House - Between Hill and Broadway - east of Main - then the Gold Line - based on route LAUS or 1st and Alameda.
From the 7th and Flower station - I would try to have a North entrance - the three we have now are all along 7th street.
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Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 10:26 AM
"Will the Regional Connector create new downtown stations or perhaps make use of the cavernous but existing Red Line Stations ? Is there a potential for cost savings here ?"
No, stations won't be shared, a new route tunnel would be built. I think there is a possiblity to bore a single tube ala Madrid because of the narrow but tall profile of our LRV's and mine the sides for a length of 400' for (4 car trains) to form the platforms. -( | )-
This way it can be done quickly and test to see if this subway method could work for future lines. And there passengers won't have to look at ugly blank concrete walls waiting for the trains
Also the connector could pave the way for this line because of the high frequency to operate with an overhead third rail instead of the catenary.
Ray D.
User ID: 1334734 Dec 12th 10:42 AM
"Also the connector could pave the way for this line because of the high frequency to operate with an overhead third rail instead of the catenary."
??
Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 11:02 AM
Instead of using a trolley wire/catenary to power the trains. An overhead third rail would be in it's place so that it can use the power more efficently. They have these on the Madrid and Barcelona subways in tunnel sections with high frequencies.
The Downtown Connector has the potential for 60 to 90 second headways.
Whitman Lam
User ID: 2170744 Dec 12th 2:59 PM
The Blue line sections are already geared for frequent 5 minute headways, but what about the Pasadena line?
People are always complaining about disturbances to their daily lives, noise, traffic backups, and too many at grade crossings. Will shorter headways drive them crazy? Let's hope so.
Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 3:13 PM
Well divided between the two lines a 90 second headway means each line could theoretically operate every 3 minutes.
But what's to say that every other train operates on the Pasadena line every 2 to 3 minutes.
For example, if the Downtown Connector was built and every line except for the Pasadena Gold Line ran at 4 minute headways, some trains could run through and some could end it's run at Chinatown or some appropriate location where crossovers and turnbacks are available and then reverse their trip back to Long Beach or Santa Monica.
BTW, there's a 1.5 mile stretch of the Chicago Brown Line that operates at-grade with gates and they run through every 2 minutes at rush hour. Pasadena Gold Line has similiar operating and neighborhood characteristics on this section of line so in time parts/neighborhoods along the line will get use to it.
crzwdjk
User ID: 7747523 Dec 12th 3:20 PM
Furthermore, all the lines of the Chicago system, including the aforementioned Brown Line, operate with regular uncovered top-contact third rail.
Damien Goodmon
User ID: 7823753 Dec 12th 6:04 PM
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So, the Downtown Regional Connector must be grade separated.
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And I'd argue that it should be underground. I don't think many people want to see a portion of Flower and 1st Street closed off the entire 1.7 miles to construct an elevated line. Have the majority of the construction take place underground with the only visible signs of construction around the station areas. Then there's the issue of navigating Bunker Hill, where it would come out of the street, etc.
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No, stations won't be shared, a new route tunnel would be built.
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Olive and Hill are about 400 feet apart. Grand and Olive are about the same distance apart. It would be great if the lines could share the southern portal of the Red line (1st/Hill), while the DTC adds a portal at Grand (or as far west as feasible). It would definitely make it an easier walk for people coming to/from Grand to get to the Red line. From Grand you could just walk into the portal, down escalators in the Grand portal, across the DTC platform and down stairs/escalator to the Red line platform - all level walking; no hiking of Bunker Hill required.
This makes me wonder how deep is the Civic Center station? Hopefully there's room to tunnel above it. Was the station designed with this in mind?
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I think there is a possiblity to bore a single tube ala Madrid because of the narrow but tall profile of our LRV's and mine the sides for a length of 400' for (4 car trains) to form the platforms.
This way it can be done quickly and test to see if this subway method could work for future lines. And there passengers won't have to look at ugly blank concrete walls waiting for the trains
********
As I touched on above, another MAJOR advantage of this method is drastically reduced disruption (and required mitigation) on the surface level. Anyone have an idea if the people putting together the DTC MIS are studying this method?
I'm curious whether mining stations is cheaper or more expensive generally than cut-and-cover stations.
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Dec 12th 6:20 PM
We have to be gooood neighbors.
"People are always complaining about disturbances to their daily lives, noise, traffic backups, and too many at grade crossings. Will shorter headways drive them crazy? Let's hope so."
This is the fastest way to scuttle Los Angeles' expanding rail system.
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Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 6:49 PM
"This makes me wonder how deep is the Civic Center station? Hopefully there's room to tunnel above it. Was the station designed with this in mind?"
It's about 70 feet below Hill Street but First Street is sloping downward and you are in Bunker Hill. In the 1992 study they looked at that and realized that it would have to be UNDER the existing tunnel so that depth at Hill Street is 90-100' below grade at Grand Avenue is a wopping 170' below grade!
Damien Goodmon
User ID: 7823753 Dec 12th 7:55 PM
Do you remember why they said it would have to be under the Red line tunnel? I wonder if if tunneling technology has improved over the past 15 years to allow it to pass above it.
From a construction standpoint I have to guess a cut-and-cover station would be much easier if it passed above the red line tunnel. I wonder if it matters if its a mined station?
Is it fair to guess that the top of the 35-foot diameter single-bored tunnel would be about 25-35 feet below the surface street at Hill (depending on whether the 70 foot depth is the top of the tunnel or - more likely - the platform level)?
Geez 170' is fricking 50 feet deeper than even Wilshire/Vermont. Why so deep? Is that 170' below the upper Grand Ave or the lower Grand Ave that leads to the Walt Disney Concert Hall parking garage?
Whitman Lam
User ID: 2170744 Dec 12th 11:43 PM
www.metro.net/pressroom
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**
"
Metro Finishes Boring Twin Tunnels for Metro Gold Line Eastside Extension Under Boyle Heights
Metro construction crews last Saturday night, Dec. 9, finished boring the twin 1.7-mile tunnels for the Metro Gold Line Eastside Extension. “Vicki”, one of two massive tunnel boring machines (TBM) completed boring the westbound tunnel at the East Portal in Boyle Heights.
“Lola,” her TBM twin, finished burrowing the eastbound tunnel Nov. 14. Tunneling operations
began last February at First and Boyle streets and moved underground to First and Lorena streets.
Lola and Vicki were custom-built in Germany at a cost of $10 million each.
Each machine weighs more than 2 million pounds and stretches 344 feet. The diameter of each tunnel is 21-feet. As the machines advanced, pre-cast concrete tunnel lining was installed in the tunnels.
The tunnels are part of a six-mile extension of the Metro Gold Line from Union Station in downtown Los Angeles through the Little Tokyo/Arts District, Boyle Heights and East Los Angeles. Eight new stations, including two underground, will be constructed.
The light rail extension is schedule to open in late 2009."
I wonder if "Lola" and "Vicki" machines can be used for this connector. They each only drill a 21 ft wide tunnel. Precast concrete sections will have to be curved, not straight for the alignment of this Connector tunnel.
crzwdjk
User ID: 7747523 Dec 12th 11:49 PM
Whitman: go to www.urbanrail.net/ and look at the background picture. Your questions will be answered.
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Dec 13th 3:02 AM
crzwdjk
Do you mean this picture?
www.thetransitcoalition.us/picturesweb/urbanrailbk.jpg
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Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 13th 11:09 AM
*** "Do you remember why they said it would have to be under the Red line tunnel? I wonder if if tunneling technology has improved over the past 15 years to allow it to pass above it."
That figure was based on a construction rule of thumb to minimize disruption to the existing Red Line subway.
The rule of thumb they used was that whatever the Exterior tunnel diameter you're boring, you need that distance ABOVE and BELOW that tunnel as clearance. So if a tunnel where to be bored to pass ABOVE the Red Line it could only have an exterior diameter of 15', which is not enough because the absolute minimum is a 17' interior diameter enough for trains and a 3'6 emergency walkway. The exterior diameter of that would be 21' including the 2' (sometimes as thin as 18") thick concrete shell.
If they go over there's a greater risk of collapsing the tunnel structure below. It will also requiring more structure to be added to the existing tunnel. Because the bottom of the subway structure is only 70' below. You could built over the tunnel with two smaller TBM's but you're leaving very little room for error.
"From a construction standpoint I have to guess a cut-and-cover station would be much easier if it passed above the red line tunnel. I wonder if it matters if its a mined station?"
Depends on how deep the station. And where the station is in relation to the Red Line tunnel. With mining depending on how deep there is the factor of pressurization. But if there's strategically placed vents and access holes with a pressure chamber for workers than this can be mitigated.
"Is it fair to guess that the top of the 35-foot diameter single-bored tunnel would be about 25-35 feet below the surface street at Hill (depending on whether the 70 foot depth is the top of the tunnel or - more likely - the platform level)? "
Platform level. Again the rule of thumb is that the tunnel diameter should (whichever tunnel is greater)
It's on Bunker HILL. There's a steep hill there. And that figure is for Upper Grand Avenue. And that figure might be skewed slightly, cause I originally took the information from memory from the Grand Avenue project. Based on the preliminary engineering drawings it's 130-140' below upper Grand Avenue.
P.S: I've been tinkering with this plan for about a while, I might have posted here at a different thread but I can't find it.
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If this is planned right this shouldn't cost too much money and minimize potential impacts.
Stations for Downtown Connector:
-7TH STREET * Platform extention
-BUNKER HILL
-CIVIC CENTER/GRAND AVENUE
-LITTLE TOKYO
What I'm thinking now is first extend the platform at 7th St Metro about 100' for longer 4 car trains then run north on Flower to First Street. Station at 4th/5th Streets, "BUNKER HILL" easy to do cause there's nothing but bloody parking structures there anyways so who cares. Station entrances can be connected with the existing structures like 505 Flower or the Citigroup building. This tunnel and station and can be done to a new method where all they would need to build are connections to the other entrances. This can be explained at the Civic Center station.
Turning deep below the Disney Hall from Flower to First with a CIVIC CENTER station between Grand/Olive and Hill Streets with small station portals at the following locations Grand Avenue development, the Park for the demolished County Courthouse and the existing Red Line 1st/Hill portal(creating another transfer to the Red Line) so that the development can still go on as planned in case the politics get in the way and prepare for future construction that is minor in disruption. The way tunnel construction has improved can even allow this tunnel to be mined like the one they did in Dallas Cityplace Station. They used the TBM's to bore the train tubes then mined along side of it creating a second tube which is then connected together to the other portals so the Mezzanine is essentially a large extension of the platform which can allow for future expansion for longer trains.
Continuining down First Street, the tunnel will turn about 30-45 degrees and shoot Northeast under the eventual demolished Parker Center and existing erector-set parking structures on San Pedro/Temple. Also at this section the two track tunnels will become a two level, four track junction in order to serve the new Little Tokyo/City Hall/Artist District station will be located between these two sites to reduce mitigation needed if the station were built on First Street in Little Tokyo.
The design of this station in my mind will be split level and side platforms on both levels. The upper level will work like the West Portal station in San Francisco where it's partially underground in one end and at-grade at the other end. This platform can double as the mezzanine.
The Pasadena/SG Valley trains will use this upper level so that it can quickly use the existing elevated guideway over the 101.
The lower level will be completely underground accessed from directly above the upper level side platform/mezzanine. Here the East LA bound trains will be located on this level so that they can continue straight down Temple curve under the NE 1st/Alameda parcel and portal before the foot of the LA River.
A little mitigation is needed for the tracks to allow trains to be re-routed around this new train portal.
Access to this station can be achieved from 3 locations: San Pedro, the end of Central Avenue (currently the Geffen Contemporary parking lot) and Temple/Alameda.
This helps add to maintain the walkable charm of the area currently disrupted by parking lots so that you stroll throught the museums and plazas in Little Tokyo on route to the subway station, it's convienent for City Hall users cause it's only a block away. It's good for Artist District users since they only have to go one more block. It will also minimize disruption to the new residents on 1st/Alameda and the near-by Buddhist Temple an important aspect when building this.
AW
User ID: 0944964 Oct 19th 2:14 PM
I just moved into Downtown and am checking out some of these discussions for the Downtown Connector. Perhaps it's because I am new here, but what is the purpose of the Downtown Connector? Isn't it just replicating the service of the Red Line subway from Union Station to 7th/Metro?
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Oct 19th 2:32 PM
NO, the main reason is a one seat ride and prevents up to 2 transfers, which could add 40 minutes to your trip going through downtown and missing connections. The last two times I had a downtown meeting at 7th and Fig, when I left the meeting, taking the Red Line to Union Station arrived at the same time the Gold Line was pulling out giving me almost the maximum wait. Now if I started at Staples center and just missed the Red Line...
Plus the DTC will allow easier movement of cars between all system, they will not have to be trucked.
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}»÷‡†=- 10/19/06 12:33:47 pm Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Oct 19th 2:53 PM
Well first congratulations! I'm a resident near Downtown as well.
To answer the question: No, not entirely.
The connector will serve a different area of Downtown directly serving Bunker Hill, City Hall and Litte Tokyo currently not reached easily by the Red Line. The main purpose is to interline the existing Blue and Gold Lines together with the under construction East LA and Expo Lines.
Now and in the future, there is an operational constraint at the 7th Street Metro Center station where during rush hour Blue Line trains operate very frequently and that there's isn't time for trains to switch tracks and go back in the other direction, since the layout of the station is done with separate platforms. When Expo is up and running in 2010 this problem is magnified with two busy lines running through frequently.
The split platform layout precluded the need for a connector since the original concept was to have the Pasadena and Long Beach trains form one line.
Another aspect is to eliminate transfers to the Red Line in order to gain more riders by delivering them directly to their destinations.
One of the problems that the Gold Line is currently not serving many of the workers who work on Bunker Hill. This also means users would benefit from a quicker trip to get to events at Staples Center or any other area along the Expo or Blue Line.
Another side benefit is that every light rail line wouldn't need a massive maintenance yard and shop devoted to that line. The MTA has one large yard in Carson/Long Beach and another one being built on the Gold Line extension to Azusa. Each yard covers a minimium of 20 acres. That valuable space has more potential for Transit oriented development.
Ken Alpern
User ID: 9697893 Oct 19th 10:31 PM
Jerard and Robert state their descriptions well, and Jerard in particular has done a great job championing this long overdue Downtown Connector.
Downtown is easily big enough for two subways, and we have four light rails "connecting" to Downtown that don't connect either to each other or to City Hall.
Hopefully, that should help sum it up. The details are as well-stated by Jerard as I think anyone ever could...including the huge bit about maintenance yards.
Webmaster rl
User ID: 1676554 Dec 12th 9:45 AM
Moved from:
"MTA Green Line Light Rail / Lincoln Blvd. News or Developments" thread.
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 11th 12:17 AM
I think that connector plan is still on the back burner behind the Expo phase 2, Wilshire subway extension, and Goldline Foothill extension.
I don't think this round of funding will cover it. Maybe 2020 ? Who knows, maybe the demand will be enough to justify it.
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Frustrated Murrieta
User_ID: 0896204 {=} Dec 11th 12:25 AM
By downtown connector, do you mean the tunnel to connect the Blue Line with the Gold Line, or is it more than that?
What's the estimated cost to dig this tunnel?
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 11th 12:35 AM
Yes the Gold to Blue, I thought it was like 650 million with no new stations. But do enough people make the transfer from Gold to Blue right now ?
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Joel C
User_ID: 9168243 {=} Dec 11th 1:11 AM
The most recent MTA study I've seen (earlier this summer, I believe) showed that the Downtown Connector is by far the most effective use of transit dollars. Effectiveness was measured in terms of ridership per dollar and ridership per mile. The $650 million figure includes 2-3 stations.
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Jerard
User_ID: 8234713 {=} Dec 11th 2:55 AM
"Yes the Gold to Blue, I thought it was like 650 million with no new stations. But do enough people make the transfer from Gold to Blue right now ? "
It's not just for Gold to Blue but for the future Expo and Eastside Lines to relieve potential service delays at the 7th St station.
It allows for our system to use the larger Maintenance shops and yards in Long Beach and Irwindale (future) for the Foothill Gold Line and existing small yard in Chinatown. Saving more space/acres for development around stations rather than for facilities since it requires a large area.
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Ken Alpern
User_ID: 1696934 {=} Dec 11th 8:12 AM
My understanding is that the Downtown Connector will precede just about everything following Expo except the already-planned Crenshaw project.
I do not think that the Subway, which really requires a full extension to Century City to be politically attractive, can overcome all the political forces that would appreciate the Downtown Connector.
Even the SGV folks appreciate the Downtown Connector, because it potentiates their current Gold Line's ridership, and might enhance the interest in extending the Gold Line to the future Irwindale rail yard.
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Mark
User_ID: 0310794 {=} Dec 12th 12:09 AM
Why not just send the gold line down Alameda (I think that the name of street) and connect it with the blue line and run in straight to LB or have it make the west turn on the current street and then the right turn on Flower like the Expo will do. I don't think we need a downtown connector. Heck even NYC has a shuttle subway that connect a the red and green lines.
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Crzwdjk
User_ID: 7747523 {=} Dec 12th 1:11 AM
Because the point of the Downtown Connector is at least partly to get the Gold Line actually into Downtown, and the Blue Line to the Civic Center and Union Station areas. And the Times Square Shuttle is only there because the original IRT subway ran down Broadway, 42nd St, and Park Ave, but was later reconfigured into the "H" system, with the Broadway-7th Ave line (1,2,3 trains) and the Lexington-Park Ave South line (4,5,6) leaving the section along 42nd street to become a shuttle.
And I guess the best NYC analogue of what you're proposing is if the A and C didn't run through downtown and you had to take the F train from Jay Street to West 4th and go back down on the E.
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 12th 1:42 AM
Does the Downtown connector need to run completely underground like a subway?
There might be some places where at grade or even elevated running can be accomodated, like 1st st. or Temple.
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Frustrated Murrieta
User_ID: 0896204 {=} Dec 12th 1:48 AM
Why not do a cheap at grade downtown connector and replace it with a subway when the money is available?
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Whitman Lam
User_ID: 2170744 {=} Dec 12th 1:58 AM
Once the line is built, it's set. Besides you don't want to build the same line twice. Taxpayers will be in an uproar, gotta do it right the first time. Or don't do it at all.
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Bart Reed
User_ID: 0603144 {=} Dec 12th 2:12 AM
The issue with the downtown connector will be the density of trains. Any attempt to put this out with surface traffic is asking for disaster.
Last year, on a harbor transitway bus going to Union Station, it took close to an hour to go from 7th / Flower to LAUS, due to ordinary congestion. The mistake of surface routing is something you commonly see on surface rail lines such as Spadina in Toronto. Have you ever seen 10 street cars bunched up?
With the downtown lines branching out each about 14 miles from downtown, running on the surface will be an extraordinary disaster if an exact schedule can't be kept.
So, the Downtown Regional Connector must be grade separated.
?--?--?
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Ken Alpern
User_ID: 1696934 {=} Dec 12th 8:08 AM
Whitman and Bart are right-on, and I recommend the others take note.
We've got four light rail lines diverging into Downtown at a time when Downtown development is booming, and at a time when the Red Line Subway cannot possibly handle every single one of the current and new transfers needed when the Expo and Eastside light rail lines open in 2009-2010.
Furthermore, the Silver and Bronze Busway Lines also will need this Connector as well.
Any way to do things cheaper is nice, but if we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot for short-term ease then it will be a bad end for a light rail effort that has begun when the Blue Line opened.
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Kings Fan
User_ID: 2114994 {=} Dec 12th 9:08 AM
Will the Regional Connector create new downtown stations or perhaps make use of the cavernous but existing Red Line Stations ? Is there a potential for cost savings here ?
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Robert
User_ID: 1676554 {=} Dec 12th 9:24 AM
The geometry of where the Red/Purple and Blue[/EXPO] lines meet really means they cannot share the same route which is good. Although the lines will be close, they still will serve different stations at different locations.
Although many east/west streets have been looked at. And the conscience seems to be 1st street - my selection would be to use Temple and where the tracks meet the Gold Line Create a wye with three stations, Disney Hall/Museums/Music Center/Court House - Between Hill and Broadway - east of Main - then the Gold Line - based on route LAUS or 1st and Alameda.
From the 7th and Flower station - I would try to have a North entrance - the three we have now are all along 7th street.
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}»÷‡†=- 12/12/06 10:50:00 am Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 10:26 AM
"Will the Regional Connector create new downtown stations or perhaps make use of the cavernous but existing Red Line Stations ? Is there a potential for cost savings here ?"
No, stations won't be shared, a new route tunnel would be built. I think there is a possiblity to bore a single tube ala Madrid because of the narrow but tall profile of our LRV's and mine the sides for a length of 400' for (4 car trains) to form the platforms. -( | )-
This way it can be done quickly and test to see if this subway method could work for future lines. And there passengers won't have to look at ugly blank concrete walls waiting for the trains
Also the connector could pave the way for this line because of the high frequency to operate with an overhead third rail instead of the catenary.
Ray D.
User ID: 1334734 Dec 12th 10:42 AM
"Also the connector could pave the way for this line because of the high frequency to operate with an overhead third rail instead of the catenary."
?? Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 11:02 AM
Instead of using a trolley wire/catenary to power the trains. An overhead third rail would be in it's place so that it can use the power more efficently. They have these on the Madrid and Barcelona subways in tunnel sections with high frequencies.
The Downtown Connector has the potential for 60 to 90 second headways.
Whitman Lam
User ID: 2170744 Dec 12th 2:59 PM
The Blue line sections are already geared for frequent 5 minute headways, but what about the Pasadena line?
People are always complaining about disturbances to their daily lives, noise, traffic backups, and too many at grade crossings. Will shorter headways drive them crazy? Let's hope so.
Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 3:13 PM
Well divided between the two lines a 90 second headway means each line could theoretically operate every 3 minutes.
But what's to say that every other train operates on the Pasadena line every 2 to 3 minutes.
For example, if the Downtown Connector was built and every line except for the Pasadena Gold Line ran at 4 minute headways, some trains could run through and some could end it's run at Chinatown or some appropriate location where crossovers and turnbacks are available and then reverse their trip back to Long Beach or Santa Monica.
BTW, there's a 1.5 mile stretch of the Chicago Brown Line that operates at-grade with gates and they run through every 2 minutes at rush hour. Pasadena Gold Line has similiar operating and neighborhood characteristics on this section of line so in time parts/neighborhoods along the line will get use to it.
crzwdjk
User ID: 7747523 Dec 12th 3:20 PM
Furthermore, all the lines of the Chicago system, including the aforementioned Brown Line, operate with regular uncovered top-contact third rail.
Damien Goodmon
User ID: 7823753 Dec 12th 6:04 PM
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So, the Downtown Regional Connector must be grade separated.
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And I'd argue that it should be underground. I don't think many people want to see a portion of Flower and 1st Street closed off the entire 1.7 miles to construct an elevated line. Have the majority of the construction take place underground with the only visible signs of construction around the station areas. Then there's the issue of navigating Bunker Hill, where it would come out of the street, etc.
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No, stations won't be shared, a new route tunnel would be built.
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Olive and Hill are about 400 feet apart. Grand and Olive are about the same distance apart. It would be great if the lines could share the southern portal of the Red line (1st/Hill), while the DTC adds a portal at Grand (or as far west as feasible). It would definitely make it an easier walk for people coming to/from Grand to get to the Red line. From Grand you could just walk into the portal, down escalators in the Grand portal, across the DTC platform and down stairs/escalator to the Red line platform - all level walking; no hiking of Bunker Hill required.
This makes me wonder how deep is the Civic Center station? Hopefully there's room to tunnel above it. Was the station designed with this in mind?
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I think there is a possiblity to bore a single tube ala Madrid because of the narrow but tall profile of our LRV's and mine the sides for a length of 400' for (4 car trains) to form the platforms.
This way it can be done quickly and test to see if this subway method could work for future lines. And there passengers won't have to look at ugly blank concrete walls waiting for the trains
********
As I touched on above, another MAJOR advantage of this method is drastically reduced disruption (and required mitigation) on the surface level. Anyone have an idea if the people putting together the DTC MIS are studying this method?
I'm curious whether mining stations is cheaper or more expensive generally than cut-and-cover stations.
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Dec 12th 6:20 PM
We have to be gooood neighbors.
"People are always complaining about disturbances to their daily lives, noise, traffic backups, and too many at grade crossings. Will shorter headways drive them crazy? Let's hope so."
This is the fastest way to scuttle Los Angeles' expanding rail system.
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}»÷‡†=- 12/12/06 7:23:05 pm Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 12th 6:49 PM
"This makes me wonder how deep is the Civic Center station? Hopefully there's room to tunnel above it. Was the station designed with this in mind?"
It's about 70 feet below Hill Street but First Street is sloping downward and you are in Bunker Hill. In the 1992 study they looked at that and realized that it would have to be UNDER the existing tunnel so that depth at Hill Street is 90-100' below grade at Grand Avenue is a wopping 170' below grade!
Damien Goodmon
User ID: 7823753 Dec 12th 7:55 PM
Do you remember why they said it would have to be under the Red line tunnel? I wonder if if tunneling technology has improved over the past 15 years to allow it to pass above it.
From a construction standpoint I have to guess a cut-and-cover station would be much easier if it passed above the red line tunnel. I wonder if it matters if its a mined station?
Is it fair to guess that the top of the 35-foot diameter single-bored tunnel would be about 25-35 feet below the surface street at Hill (depending on whether the 70 foot depth is the top of the tunnel or - more likely - the platform level)?
Geez 170' is fricking 50 feet deeper than even Wilshire/Vermont. Why so deep? Is that 170' below the upper Grand Ave or the lower Grand Ave that leads to the Walt Disney Concert Hall parking garage?
Whitman Lam
User ID: 2170744 Dec 12th 11:43 PM
www.metro.net/pressroom
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**
"
Metro Finishes Boring Twin Tunnels for Metro Gold Line Eastside Extension Under Boyle Heights
Metro construction crews last Saturday night, Dec. 9, finished boring the twin 1.7-mile tunnels for the Metro Gold Line Eastside Extension. “Vicki”, one of two massive tunnel boring machines (TBM) completed boring the westbound tunnel at the East Portal in Boyle Heights.
“Lola,” her TBM twin, finished burrowing the eastbound tunnel Nov. 14. Tunneling operations
began last February at First and Boyle streets and moved underground to First and Lorena streets.
Lola and Vicki were custom-built in Germany at a cost of $10 million each.
Each machine weighs more than 2 million pounds and stretches 344 feet. The diameter of each tunnel is 21-feet. As the machines advanced, pre-cast concrete tunnel lining was installed in the tunnels.
The tunnels are part of a six-mile extension of the Metro Gold Line from Union Station in downtown Los Angeles through the Little Tokyo/Arts District, Boyle Heights and East Los Angeles. Eight new stations, including two underground, will be constructed.
The light rail extension is schedule to open in late 2009."
I wonder if "Lola" and "Vicki" machines can be used for this connector. They each only drill a 21 ft wide tunnel. Precast concrete sections will have to be curved, not straight for the alignment of this Connector tunnel.
crzwdjk
User ID: 7747523 Dec 12th 11:49 PM
Whitman: go to www.urbanrail.net/ and look at the background picture. Your questions will be answered.
Robert
User ID: 1676554 Dec 13th 3:02 AM
crzwdjk
Do you mean this picture?
www.thetransitcoalition.us/picturesweb/urbanrailbk.jpg
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}»÷‡†=- 12/13/06 4:06:27 am Jerard
User ID: 1432154 Dec 13th 11:09 AM
*** "Do you remember why they said it would have to be under the Red line tunnel? I wonder if if tunneling technology has improved over the past 15 years to allow it to pass above it."
That figure was based on a construction rule of thumb to minimize disruption to the existing Red Line subway.
The rule of thumb they used was that whatever the Exterior tunnel diameter you're boring, you need that distance ABOVE and BELOW that tunnel as clearance. So if a tunnel where to be bored to pass ABOVE the Red Line it could only have an exterior diameter of 15', which is not enough because the absolute minimum is a 17' interior diameter enough for trains and a 3'6 emergency walkway. The exterior diameter of that would be 21' including the 2' (sometimes as thin as 18") thick concrete shell.
If they go over there's a greater risk of collapsing the tunnel structure below. It will also requiring more structure to be added to the existing tunnel. Because the bottom of the subway structure is only 70' below. You could built over the tunnel with two smaller TBM's but you're leaving very little room for error.
"From a construction standpoint I have to guess a cut-and-cover station would be much easier if it passed above the red line tunnel. I wonder if it matters if its a mined station?"
Depends on how deep the station. And where the station is in relation to the Red Line tunnel. With mining depending on how deep there is the factor of pressurization. But if there's strategically placed vents and access holes with a pressure chamber for workers than this can be mitigated.
"Is it fair to guess that the top of the 35-foot diameter single-bored tunnel would be about 25-35 feet below the surface street at Hill (depending on whether the 70 foot depth is the top of the tunnel or - more likely - the platform level)? "
Platform level. Again the rule of thumb is that the tunnel diameter should (whichever tunnel is greater)
It's on Bunker HILL. There's a steep hill there. And that figure is for Upper Grand Avenue. And that figure might be skewed slightly, cause I originally took the information from memory from the Grand Avenue project. Based on the preliminary engineering drawings it's 130-140' below upper Grand Avenue.
Everybody know that the best alignment for the Downtown connector is ALAMEDA AVE.!!!!
