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Post by fredmcain on Feb 27, 2015 7:46:22 GMT -8
Group,
I think it would be a wonderful public relations feat to actually operate some historic Red Cars on some of Metro's light rail lines. The "Blimps" would be my first choice but would probably not clear Metro's station platforms. However, I have been told my knowledgeable experts that some of the other historic equipment would fit.
The only other two obstacles are the voltage discrepancy and finding an entity like the Orange Empire Railway Museum (or someone else) to lone the equipment. Historic trolleys once worked very well and were popular with the public on Muni in San Francisco. So, why not in L.A.?
Is there anyone at the transit coalition who would be willing to help further such an idea?
Regards, Fred M. Cain
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Post by johanragle on Feb 27, 2015 9:59:54 GMT -8
The biggest problem I can think of, off-hand, is that the Red Cars, PCC cars, and every other piece of vintage trolley equipment used trolley poles, where Metro's current equipment relies on pantographs. I think Bob Davis or one of the other old-time trolley experts would have a better idea of the potential incompatibilities.
The next problem you'll run into is that Metro uses high-floor LRTs, and the Pacific Electric cars, while high-floor, have boarding stairs. You could probably cover up the stairs with a level boarding ramp, however.
Then, once you've worked out the compatibility issues, the next problem becomes a scheduling issue. I could see an occasional weekend excursion train running from Azuza to Long Beach once the regional connector opens, but not much beyond that. Actually, I really like that idea - perhaps we could get Metro on board since it would be a huge PR stunt to have an antique Red Car be the first car to run the entire length of the newly unified Blue Line...
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 4, 2015 1:24:39 GMT -8
This subject first came up when the Blue Line opened almost 25 years ago. The "Blimps" are too wide (being closer to main line railroad loading gauge), and the Hollywood cars would be too low for easy access from the platforms. Wooden interurban 1001 is too wide, and has a bad motor. The problem with PCCs is that all the PCCs at OERM are single ended, and except for one San Diego car currently under restoration, all are narrow gauge relics of the LARy/LATL system. Regarding pantographs: Some years ago, a pair of former Chicago Aurora and Elgin interurban cars were run on the Cleveland rapid transit system with pantographs added. CA&E cars had to be narrow enough to use the Chicago Elevated lines to access downtown Chicago, so platform clearance wouldn't be a problem. One possibility comes to mind: the replica Red Cars in San Pedro use high platform loading, and they're probably sturdy enough to support a pantograph. Since they're replicas, we wouldn't be risking an irreplaceable antique. Another, less likely, "money is no object" scenario would be to buy a Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee interurban car; many of them resembled PE 1200 class cars. By adding PE-style destination signs and air whistles to the ends, we'd have something that would have the right look and make all the right noises.
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Post by johanragle on Mar 4, 2015 8:27:35 GMT -8
Bob,
Do the San Pedro Red Cars operate on 600 V or 750 V like Metro? Because I could see that being about the only major hangup with borrowing their replicas - bureaucratic hangups aside.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 4, 2015 13:12:15 GMT -8
Regarding the higher voltage on modern light rail lines: I would consult with San Jose and/or Sacramento on this question. Both systems have run vintage cars with Type-K controllers on their downtown tracks. I would guess that the control apparatus and motors have enough tolerance built into them to allow running on 750 volts. The San Pedro cars have modern multiple-unit control systems and would probably be OK with the higher voltage. There might be a problem with the car lights--traditional streetcars usually have the light fixtures wired in series with groups of five, so they have five 120-volt bulbs across the 600-volt trolley circuit. It might be necessary to add resistors in the lighting circuits or rewire the lights to run in groups of six to avoid having to replace bulbs too often.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 4, 2015 13:18:05 GMT -8
Regarding the higher voltage on modern light rail lines: I would consult with San Jose and/or Sacramento on this question. Both systems have run vintage cars with Type-K controllers on their downtown tracks. I would guess that the control apparatus and motors have enough tolerance built into them to allow running on 750 volts. The San Pedro cars have modern multiple-unit control systems and would probably be OK with the higher voltage. There might be a problem with the car lights--traditional streetcars usually have the light fixtures wired in series with groups of five, so they have five 120-volt bulbs across the 600-volt trolley circuit. It might be necessary to add resistors in the lighting circuits or rewire the lights to run in groups of six to avoid having to replace bulbs too often.
Of course this is all "roundhouse railroading"--unless someone in the Metro hierarchy thinks that running vintage or replica old-timey trolleys on their lines is a wonderful idea, we're in (to borrow a Beach Boys song title) the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" or the "I Should Live So Long" mode.
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Post by johanragle on Mar 4, 2015 14:33:21 GMT -8
Of course this is all "roundhouse railroading"--unless someone in the Metro hierarchy thinks that running vintage or replica old-timey trolleys on their lines is a wonderful idea, we're in (to borrow a Beach Boys song title) the "Wouldn't It Be Nice" or the "I Should Live So Long" mode. We could pass the idea along to Steve Hymon over at The Source. He's pretty receptive to ideas from the community and can forward suggestions along. Another way might be to suggest the idea at one of the Metro community meetings, perhaps related to the Regional Connector project. I mean, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for publicity. When the Regional Connector opens, the Blue Line will be on its 30th anniversary, and it would also mark the 120th anniversary of the Pacific Electric (assuming you count 1899 as the founding year). I can't think of a better time to have a couple Red Cars run from Long Beach to Azuza and back.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 4, 2015 22:40:52 GMT -8
This idea is probably far more practical on the Downtown Streetcar than Metro Light-Rail, something like San Francisco does.
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