Bagley Avenue crossing -- will it work?

[Gokhan]

Thanks to Cheviot Hills Home Owners' Association and Neighbors for Smart Rail drawing all the attention to the Overland Ave, Westwood Blvd, and Military Ave crossings in their neighborhood, it looks like little thought went into the Bagley Ave crossing. This crossing could potentially be a nightmare. Yesterday, when I was hiding from the rain under the freeway bridge, I realized that the tracks are also blocked by cars making a right turn onto Bagley Avenue. There is a tremendous slow rush-hour traffic here.



Tracks are also blocked by the southbound traffic:

[darrell]

Living in Pasadena now I regularly get to watch how the signals adjacent to the Gold Line grade crossings work, especially on Del Mar. I've noticed that lights are always green for cars needing to exit the area as crossing gates come down (and red for cars on the boulevards paralleling the tracks). The leading gate drops first to stop approaching cars, while the second gate takes longer for the track area to clear.

Let's hope LADOT has done as much. That would mean, for example, that Bagley southbound at Exposition always would be green when a train approaches so no cars remain stopped on the tracks. This should have been part of the CPUC approval.

[Gokhan]

There were four sheriff cars at Bagley Avenue this morning (three seen in this picture). I wonder if they have been having problems with cars blocking the gates and tracks during testing.

[f ron]

Vehicles were backed up over the tracks on Overland this morning too --and those signals are "working". So much for the notion that this intersection got some kind of special consideration.

[davebowman]

I think there's going to be a transition phase during which drivers will come to realize those tracks are there for a reason. I go through the 26th St. and Olympic intersection every night, and last night even though the chain link fences formerly blocking the tracks were open, and a test train could have been coming, drivers going northbound on 26th St. were still stopping on the tracks at the crossing when the light was red.

[f ron]

Apr 10, 2015 8:42:02 GMT -8 davebowman said:

I think there's going to be a transition phase during which drivers will come to realize those tracks are there for a reason. I go through the 26th St. and Olympic intersection every night, and last night even though the chain link fences formerly blocking the tracks were open, and a test train could have been coming, drivers going northbound on 26th St. were still stopping on the tracks at the crossing when the light was red.

I hope you're right. That said many drivers 'go with the herd' so when traffic moves forward they all move forward. Sometimes that gets you where you intend to go. Other times that takes you a couple feet. If that couple feet puts you on the rails, all boxed in with nowhere to go, it can lead to trouble, despite the green light telling them it was OK to go. Overland is a very busy street at peak hours. They just converted it from a four lane road to a six lane road at the crossing yet it still can back up. Maybe in 2015 that's an occasional concern but give the city a decade or so of population growth and it could rapidly become a regular, if not daily, occurrence.

Oh, and there's ample signage on the Overland right now alerting drivers to active train crossings as part of the testing.

[Gokhan]

Apr 10, 2015 7:40:27 GMT -8 f ron said:

Vehicles were backed up over the tracks on Overland this morning too --and those signals are "working". So much for the notion that this intersection got some kind of special consideration.

This is very surprising and not good. Look at the picture below and see how much safety distance is between the "octagates" and the wait-here line. Drivers are still ignoring it? Unbelievable!



But then what do you expect from the LA drivers, for whom running the red light for five seconds after it goes on is the norm.

[f ron]

Apr 10, 2015 11:54:37 GMT -8 Gokhan said:

Apr 10, 2015 7:40:27 GMT -8 f ron said:

Vehicles were backed up over the tracks on Overland this morning too --and those signals are "working". So much for the notion that this intersection got some kind of special consideration.

This is very surprising and not good. Look at the picture below and see how much safety distance is between the "octagates" and the wait-here line. Drivers are still ignoring it? Unbelievable!



But then what do you expect from the LA drivers, for whom running the red light for five seconds after it goes on is the norm.

That's just it. I don't believe they were ignoring it. The sign clearly says "Stop here on red". By and large, that's exactly what the drivers do at that spot. The cars that were stuck over the tracks had proceeded on a green light. They moved forward on good faith. The trouble this morning was that traffic ahead of them was backed up all the way to Pico. There were no obstructions, lane closures or anything like that, it was simply a heavy traffic morning. They happen. The load at that moment was heavier than the signals and the lanes allowed for.

[Gokhan]

In any case, every driver must know that you never, never stop on railroad tracks, regardless of what-color light or what traffic is ahead of you. You should only proceed across railroad tracks if you are 100% sure that you can clear the tracks without stopping on them.

[f ron]

Apr 10, 2015 14:20:58 GMT -8 Gokhan said:

In any case, every driver must know that you never, never stop on railroad tracks, regardless of what-color light or what traffic is ahead of you. You should only proceed across railroad tracks if you are 100% sure that you can clear the tracks without stopping on them.

I appreciate what you're saying but for generations of drivers a green light means go, not proceed with caution. You've highlighted the distance in your photo, there's about four car lengths from the 'stop here' line. In slow moving, bumper-to-bumper traffic under the conditions of a green light it's a dicey proposition to determine when the light cycle is going to change.

As Darrell has indicated upthread the light cycle is designed to clear the pack on the tracks by moving the traffic on the other side of the tracks forward. I've witnessed it work on Overland and it does just fine. That said, there's a school crossing at the next light and delays sometimes occur there which can bunch things up. This morning I witnessed a whole other ball of wax: the street just happened to be jammed all the way to Pico. It's not an everyday thing, mind you, but as the population grows it could well become one.

[RMoses]

Apr 10, 2015 14:20:58 GMT -8 Gokhan said:

In any case, every driver must know that you never, never stop on railroad tracks, regardless of what-color light or what traffic is ahead of you. You should only proceed across railroad tracks if you are 100% sure that you can clear the tracks without stopping on them.

Most vehicular laws state you may not proceed through an "intersection" unless you can clear it; this is common knowledge for experienced drivers, but ignorance is bliss.

[davebowman]

There are now large KEEP CLEAR warning signs painted on the lanes in front of the 26th St. crossing next to Bergamot Station. Last night the fences across the tracks on both sides of 26th St. were closed, so while waiting for the red light I crossed the tracks (in my car) and waited between the north side of the crossing and Olympic. The car behind me did wait on the far (south)side of the tracks, heeding the signs. It looks like when the gates are down there will be barely room for one car between the north gate and Olympic, and there was a car next to me in the right lane and a lowered gate might have come down on its trunk, so hopefully people driving northbound on 26th won't be tempted to wait on the far side of the crossing when there is a red light. It would help if the traffic light on the south side of Olympic was positioned before the crossing, rather than beyond it at the corner, because there is a lot of space between the crossing and the intersection. Even with the gates and all the signage it seems weird to stop that far from the intersection. I could see drivers waiting back in the pack, worried about getting across when the light turns green, honking to get the front car to move up.

[f ron]

Apr 14, 2015 9:38:43 GMT -8 davebowman said:

There are now large KEEP CLEAR warning signs painted on the lanes in front of the 26th St. crossing next to Bergamot Station. Last night the fences across the tracks on both sides of 26th St. were closed, so while waiting for the red light I crossed the tracks (in my car) and waited between the north side of the crossing and Olympic. The car behind me did wait on the far (south)side of the tracks, heeding the signs. It looks like when the gates are down there will be barely room for one car between the north gate and Olympic, and there was a car next to me in the right lane and a lowered gate might have come down on its trunk, so hopefully people driving northbound on 26th won't be tempted to wait on the far side of the crossing when there is a red light. It would help if the traffic light on the south side of Olympic was positioned before the crossing, rather than beyond it at the corner, because there is a lot of space between the crossing and the intersection. Even with the gates and all the signage it seems weird to stop that far from the intersection. I could see drivers waiting back in the pack, worried about getting across when the light turns green, honking to get the front car to move up.

If it proves to be a problem they may have to make that intersection a no right turn on red to discourage impatient drivers from scooting forward to make the turn. It's not an especially well designed intersection. It's likely to confound many who encounter it.

[joshuanickel]

Apr 14, 2015 10:42:59 GMT -8 f ron said:

Apr 14, 2015 9:38:43 GMT -8 davebowman said:

There are now large KEEP CLEAR warning signs painted on the lanes in front of the 26th St. crossing next to Bergamot Station. Last night the fences across the tracks on both sides of 26th St. were closed, so while waiting for the red light I crossed the tracks (in my car) and waited between the north side of the crossing and Olympic. The car behind me did wait on the far (south)side of the tracks, heeding the signs. It looks like when the gates are down there will be barely room for one car between the north gate and Olympic, and there was a car next to me in the right lane and a lowered gate might have come down on its trunk, so hopefully people driving northbound on 26th won't be tempted to wait on the far side of the crossing when there is a red light. It would help if the traffic light on the south side of Olympic was positioned before the crossing, rather than beyond it at the corner, because there is a lot of space between the crossing and the intersection. Even with the gates and all the signage it seems weird to stop that far from the intersection. I could see drivers waiting back in the pack, worried about getting across when the light turns green, honking to get the front car to move up.

If it proves to be a problem they may have to make that intersection a no right turn on red to discourage impatient drivers from scooting forward to make the turn. It's not an especially well designed intersection. It's likely to confound many who encounter it.

Behind the crossing at 26th, they painted on the lanes WAIT HERE, and between the crossing and Olympic, there is a crosswalk that takes up most of the space, so people really should not be stopping there.

Next to the crossing, there is what appears to be a base for a new traffic signal similar to the set up at Bagley, and I believe that it will end up with all traffic stopping behind the crossing until the green light and a no turn on red restriction.

[joshuanickel]

Apr 14, 2015 12:58:19 GMT -8 joshuanickel said:

Apr 14, 2015 10:42:59 GMT -8 f ron said:

Apr 14, 2015 9:38:43 GMT -8 davebowman said:

There are now large KEEP CLEAR warning signs painted on the lanes in front of the 26th St. crossing next to Bergamot Station. Last night the fences across the tracks on both sides of 26th St. were closed, so while waiting for the red light I crossed the tracks (in my car) and waited between the north side of the crossing and Olympic. The car behind me did wait on the far (south)side of the tracks, heeding the signs. It looks like when the gates are down there will be barely room for one car between the north gate and Olympic, and there was a car next to me in the right lane and a lowered gate might have come down on its trunk, so hopefully people driving northbound on 26th won't be tempted to wait on the far side of the crossing when there is a red light. It would help if the traffic light on the south side of Olympic was positioned before the crossing, rather than beyond it at the corner, because there is a lot of space between the crossing and the intersection. Even with the gates and all the signage it seems weird to stop that far from the intersection. I could see drivers waiting back in the pack, worried about getting across when the light turns green, honking to get the front car to move up.

If it proves to be a problem they may have to make that intersection a no right turn on red to discourage impatient drivers from scooting forward to make the turn. It's not an especially well designed intersection. It's likely to confound many who encounter it.

Behind the crossing at 26th, they painted on the lanes WAIT HERE, and between the crossing and Olympic, there is a crosswalk that takes up most of the space, so people really should not be stopping there.

Next to the crossing, there is what appears to be a base for a new traffic signal similar to the set up at Bagley, and I believe that it will end up with all traffic stopping behind the crossing until the green light and a no turn on red restriction.

Here is a picture to show what I am talking about:

26th Street crossing looking North all the road markings in place

[culvercitylocke]

Apr 8, 2015 11:07:19 GMT -8 Gokhan said:

Thanks to Cheviot Hills Home Owners' Association and Neighbors for Smart Rail drawing all the attention to the Overland Ave, Westwood Blvd, and Military Ave crossings in their neighborhood, it looks like little thought went into the Bagley Ave crossing. This crossing could potentially be a nightmare. Yesterday, when I was hiding from the rain under the freeway bridge, I realized that the tracks are also blocked by cars making a right turn onto Bagley Avenue. There is a tremendous slow rush-hour traffic here.



Tracks are also blocked by the southbound traffic:

So you advocate at grade rail for everywhere, but the sole grade crossing in your own neighborhood (for a very low volume street) you're against?

[Gokhan]

Apr 14, 2015 18:54:57 GMT -8 culvercitylocke said:

So you advocate at grade rail for everywhere, but the sole grade crossing in your own neighborhood (for a very low volume street) you're against?

Well, both of your claims are false. I am neither against at an at-grade crossing at Bagley Avenue nor I advocate at-grade rail for everywhere.

It's a legitimate concern that if an at-grade crossing is designed poorly, it may not work. You may have a series of accidents, broken gates, trains having to stop because of cars blocking tracks, etc., which could end up jeopardizing the operations.

It will have to be seen how this crossing will turn out. I've been told that it's not uncommon for crossings to be redesigned if there are problems during testing.