Metrolink Victor Valley Line

[nickv]

Well, after reading some articles on the sprawling Victor Valley which could serve as a terminal for the future high speed rail line DesertXPress to Las Vegas, I decided to whip up a dream map of a Metrolink Victor Valley Line. I welcome feedback as I whiped this piece out of the clouds and onto the forums.

It basically links the sprawling suburbs of the valley to San Bernardino and Riverside mainly using the existing freight rail lines. Starting from central Adelanto, it heads east and joins the existing USAF railroad to Old Town Victorville, where it merges with the existing freight railroad and continues south to the Victor Valley Town Center/business park area, to central Hesperia, to Cajon Junction (I think this would be good Park & Ride spot), to Devore, and finally to Downtown San Bernardino and possibly Downtown Riverside.

This line would connect commuters living in Victor Valley to jobs in Downtown San Bernardino and Downtown Riverside as well as much of the existing Metrolink System. It would also provide a link for Vegas bound travelers between the existing Metrolink System to Victorville; from there they would transfer to the proposed DesertXpress HSR line to Las Vegas.

Yes, I do understand that there's a lot of roadblocks on getting freight rail lines to share their tracks with passenger trains and that there's a bunch of politics and studying to be done, but having sufficient mass transportation through the clogged Cajon Pass is much needed.

[brandon]

How long would an end to end trip take? that grade is pretty steep!

[vnc]

Well. It can take Amtrak's Southwest Chief about 1 hour and 10 minutes from San Bernardino to Victorville. It might work but you need to get the BNSF and UP to agree. I been hearing a lot of talks/rumors of maybe seeing Amtrak adding a L A/LV train along with a few other possible Amtrak Routes in California.

[bobdavis]

BNSF is in process of adding a third track to the San Bernardino-Barstow route; this may make a Metrolink service somewhat more feasible. There's also been some discussion of electrifying the LA Basin freight railway system, with Barstow being the "end of wire"--don't hold your breath, but it could happen eventually. Switzerland and other mountainous areas use electric railways to great advantage. As far as Amtrak reviving rail service to Las Vegas--not in the near future. There's pressure from California economic and Indian gaming interests to discourage people and money from leaving the state. Same goes for "Vegas Maglev" proposals, with the added barrier of a large up-front investment before any income starts coming in. I used to have a job that involved coming back to the LA area over I-15 on Friday evenings, and I'd see this parade of ex-Greyhound charter buses struggling over the grade, figuring some of them belonged to backyard operators who held them together with duct tape and baling wire, but boy were their fares cheap! Try competing with these low-overhead carriers with a system that starts out with a massive construction debt. Would you buy Vegas Maglev stocks and bonds?

[nickv]

brandon said:

How long would an end to end trip take? that grade is pretty steep!

Brandon,
Amtrak has a long distance train called the Southwest Chief that traveles up this grade. VNC posted that it takes about 1 hour and 10 minutes to take this train from San Bernardino to Old Town Victorville. I'm estimating that a Metrolink train might make the uphill trip from San Bernardino to Adelanto in about 1 hour and 25 minutes (+/- 10 minutes), considering that Metrolink trains carry fewer cars than the Southwest Chief and that station stops are very brief (i.e. 20-45 seconds). Electrifying the line may help, but then again, Metrolink uses its train sets for several lines.

[vnc]

I think instead of Adelanto. I think the end point should be at Barstow. There is a lot of open space at this Amtrak Station for parking Metrolink Stations. At one time Barstow had many Platforms and Tracks. Also has a nice size parking lot. the southwest Chief Stops heres. Along with Amtrak's Thruway Bus to the San Joaquin (in Bakersfield) and even Greyhound stops here. Also Note. The scheduled time with the Southwest Chief of 1 hour and 10 Minutes. Also includes padding.

Snip
Also. I don't know if there was ever any Trains in Push mode over the Cajon Pass. Amtrak SW Chief and even the Desert Wind. always was pulled with at least two locomotives.

Maybe Metrolink will have to have Bookends or would have to turn the locomotive around. at the end of each run.

[nickv]

Thanks for all your feedback. I've updated the original map.

Okay, the DesertXpress HSR Victorville station is proposed to be just over 1/2 mile from Old Town Victorville. See www.desertxpress.com/need.php for more info. I think the central Victorville Metrolink station should be right next to the HSR station so that passengers can detrain Metrolink, buy their HSR tickets and get on board.

I welcome feedback.

[vnc]

Well. I think if you do want to extend to Barstow. I think it should be extended to Daggett. Daggett is really growing

[whitmanlam]

Where is Daggett ? What do they do ? What to they have over there ? What can they do to develop around this project is the real question ?

[vnc]

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggett%2C_California

Daggett, CA is a small town with about 1500 to 2000 people living there. It is the Jct for the UP and BNSF. Where the UP Line goes to Las Vegas. Daggett has a Solar Power Plant. Also is close to the Calico Ghost Town Regional Park.

[bluelineshawn]

vnc said:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggett%2C_California

Daggett, CA is a small town with about 1500 to 2000 people living there. It is the Jct for the UP and BNSF. Where the UP Line goes to Las Vegas. Daggett has a Solar Power Plant. Also is close to the Calico Ghost Town Regional Park.

So your post that Metrolink should be extended that far was a joke?

[nickv]

The City of Barstow offers a general public "County Dial-a-Ride" service. I don't know if the service area includes Daggett or not. Since Daggett is still very small compared to Barstow, I think an on-demand DAR bus between this town and the Barstow Station would be better at this time. If Daggett's population increases, then a fixed route feeder should be built. If Daggett's population does skyrocket into six figure numbers, then the county should consider aquiring some land around the tracks and have a rail station there.

If the California HSR system gets built and commuter fares are affordable to key employment areas of the stae, I think the entire Barstow area (including Daggett) could see some transit oriented growth. That's some time away though.

I know for sure that Victorville residents need a transit alternative down the mountain than sitting in traffic on the I-15, and that's the reason why I'm sharing this idea.

[James Fujita]

hmmmmm. I dunno. we're dealing with an area where a lot of people have gone to flee from urban troubles. Metrolink and transit-oriented development could be a hard sell.

there's also two major "ifs"- 1) the Desert Xpress in Victorville and 2) the Cal HSR project in Palmdale. if one or the other or both get built, there might be a need for an east-west cross-valley line to connect the two...

[nickv]

we're dealing with an area where a lot of people have gone to flee from urban troubles.

Turtle Rock in Irvine and Orange Hills are quiet areas too. Don't forget that property is much cheaper (I'm guessing at least 50%) in Victorville than it is in Irvine

I think a $200,000 condo in a transit village will get good response if all of the benefits of the transit village are presented to the buyers.

I know it's hard to judge with the slow market now, but I think the Transit Ready Development in Temecula has received good response so far, especially in Old Town. Don't forget that Temecula was another sprawling suburb just a few years ago. Now, there's real proposals for Metrolink along the I-15 Corridor. Things are changing out there.

I think Victorville could have the same future if it goes for transit oriented or transit friendly development in its core areas. They have a central city. So does Hesperia. Both connect to the line. These would be good marketing spots for such development.

Here's a link to one of the projects in Temecula:
www.temeculainformation.com/communities/Temecula_Creek_Village.htm

It's a mixed use facility, active and live, but is certainly not congested or crowded. One of the stores in this village is a Subway Restaurant. There's another Subway Restaurant just down the road in a suburban style shopping center. Both have their lunch crowds, but the customers in the Subway Restaurant in the mixed used facility were much more relaxed and the environment was much more calmer than the restaurant in the strip mall. I've seen the same trend with visits to other stores including a mom/pop chicken restaurant.

This area of Temecula was originally zoned for commercial, strip mall development. The city rezoned and allowed a mixed use village to be built and take a look at what a little bit of rezoning can do to the community. History has shown us that village systems like these work. Have the NIMBY's explain their way out of that one.

[wad]

nickv said:

I know it's hard to judge with the slow market now, but I think the Transit Ready Development in Temecula has received good response so far, especially in Old Town. Don't forget that Temecula was another sprawling suburb just a few years ago. Now, there's real proposals for Metrolink along the I-15 Corridor. Things are changing out there.

One development is not going to do a lot of good when the rest of the city is hostile to pedestrians.

[nickv]

One development is not going to do a lot of good...

That's why people like us are here to advocate and support such development

Actually, Temecula has a number of transit friendly projects on the table including the Temecula Education Complex (2yr & 4yr college classrooms, shopping, lofts, and apartments), Temecula Village (mixed), Temecula Creek Village, and a few others.

I do agree with you though that much of Temecula is still pedestrian unfriendly, but I think the city is aware of it though.

Even Victorville is starting to wake up to mixed used development in their central city, but as you stated, they need to go mixed-use elsewhere in their region, not just Old Town.

ci.victorville.ca.us/news/07_stories/03-02_oldtown.html

[losangeles2319]

I live in the H-D and think a rail line is a great idea but seriously, 1 hour and 25 minutes to get down the pass to San Bernardino Station is iffy.
The only days traffic is bad on the 15 is Friday night northbound(Vegas traffic) and Sunday night southbound(Los Angeles Traffic from Vegas) You would have to make the trip at most 55-60 minutes.
For that to happen you would probably have to build some alternate rail line which would become very expensive. The way i see it though, if the "DesertXpress" goes through, it could be extended down the Cajon Pass (along the I-15 Median?) and then stop at Rancho Cucamonga Station where people make the switch. We would just have to make sure that the Xpress trains work with metrolink schedules to facilitate transfers.
We would also have to work out how to divide the track time between "metrolink" type trains and tourist trains to Vegas.

[nickv]

I live in the H-D and think a rail line is a great idea but seriously, 1 hour and 25 minutes to get down the pass to San Bernardino Station is iffy.
The only days traffic is bad on the 15 is Friday night northbound(Vegas traffic) and Sunday night southbound(Los Angeles Traffic from Vegas) You would have to make the trip at most 55-60 minutes.
For that to happen you would probably have to build some alternate rail line which would become very expensive. The way i see it though, if the "DesertXpress" goes through, it could be extended down the Cajon Pass (along the I-15 Median?) and then stop at Rancho Cucamonga Station where people make the switch. We would just have to make sure that the Xpress trains work with metrolink schedules to facilitate transfers.
We would also have to work out how to divide the track time between "metrolink" type trains and tourist trains to Vegas.

DesertXpress Enterprises LLC reports that the DesertXpress Line could be extended over the Cajon Pass into the Southland. It is also compatible with the CA HSR System.

I'm working on getting a campaign project going to reinstate the cancelled Victor Valley Transit Authority commuter bus route connecting the Inland Empire with the High Desert area during rush hours together with a second local-plus-express route to productively connect the High Desert area to the Ontario Airport and the Montclair TransCenter for midday and weekend trips via A Better Inland Empire. Click here to view a map.

If the DesertXpress Line gets built, a round-the-clock transit route through the Pass will be very necessary, mainly due to TOD developers wanting to build around the Victorville HSR Station near or within Old Town Victorville.

[nickv]

Feasibility Study of Commuter Rail Service through the Cajon Pass - Metrolink "Victor Valley Line"

The goal of the Victor Valley Long Distance Commuter Needs Study is to provide a comprehensive assessment of long-range commuter transit needs for residents living in the Victor Valley and to develop strategies to meet those needs. This project is being sponsored by San Bernardino Associated Governments (SANBAG) and has been guided by a steering committee consisting of the four member cities in the Victor Valley (Victorville, Adelanto, Hesperia and Apple Valley), as well as representatives from the Victor Valley Transit Authority (VVTA) and San Bernardino County. At the completion of this project, a series of recommendations will be made to SANBAG to implement the strategies that best meet the needs of Victor Valley commuters.



Investments into improving the tracks via the Cajon Pass to improve travel times could increase the viability of the project:

Recognizing that commuter rail service has significant appeal to Victor Valley residents, the project team performed a conceptual review of the likely costs and patronage associated with commuter rail service linking Victorville with San Bernardino.

This service would likely entail significant capital costs. Assuming that a one-way trip via commuter rail would take about 74 minutes, a minimum of two complete train sets would be required for a basic level of service. If purchased new, the locomotives would cost about $4.5 million each, with an additional $1.3 million for each rail car. Together, two train sets consisting of an engine and two cars each would cost $14 to $15 million. In addition, the operating authority would need to secure operating rights from the existing rail operator, which would likely entail additional costs.

Commuter rail operating costs are typically measured in terms of the cost of operating a single rail car for one hour. During 2007, the four commuter rail services operating in California experienced an average cost of $507.58 per rail car hour. Accordingly, a two car train operating from Victorville to San Bernardino, a trip that Amtrak schedules to take 74 minutes, would entail about $1,250 daily operating cost. If 50 people rode, the operating cost per rider would be about $25.

A final consideration about commuter rail is the travel time. As noted above, Amtrak schedules 74 minutes for the trip from Victorville to San Bernardino. The same trip can be accomplished by private auto in about 38 minutes. Adding to the inconvenience, because Metrolink does not plan to extend its services to Victorville, continuing rail passengers would be compelled to transfer trains. Most people going to destinations in and around San Bernardino would need to transfer to local buses. All this would make the service very inconvenient, likely reducing its market potential to a point where it would prove extremely difficult to attract even 50 riders per train. For all these reasons – relatively high cost combined with long travel times – the project team does not consider commuter rail to be a viable short-term service option unless significant track improvements, aimed at decreasing travel times, are undertaken.

---

I will continue to follow up on this. Integrating possible public-private partnerships and including both the CA HSR and DesertXPress ridership bases into future studies could make a rail line more feasible for the Cajon Pass.

[losangeles2319]

If we think that Los Angeles would be the destination for commuters, then just after Hesperia the train could instead take the Union Pacific tracks across the desert towards the Antelope Valley. It would then join up with the Antelope Valley Line just before Vincent Grade/Acton. From there it would only take an hour to get into the city. If we can say that it will take less than an hour for the train to get from Old Town Victorville Station to Vincent Grade/Acton Station than the trip time from the Victorville to Los Angeles would be about two hours. About the same time it takes for the train to get from Lancaster to Los Angeles. Now of course im not sure if the trip from Victorville to Acton could be done in under an hour but there shouldn't be a lot of stops in-between Hesperia and Acton. Maybe Phelan and/or Lake Los Angeles, however, if the train is to help reduce sprawl in the desert "cities" (which I hope it will do), then stations should only put in major population centers (i.e. Victorville, Hesperia, Joshua Hills/Pearland). It would be even better if all the desert cities just moved down the hill, but I don't see that happening for a good century.

[jdrcrasher]

If you're willing to have passengers transfer to a High Speed train, I think we might be better of with the CA-NV Interstate Maglev. This would have the technology needed to navigate the Cajon Pass. Plus it would have stations to transfer to the CHSR at Ontario (Airport) and Anaheim (ARTIC).

LBH, the only real reason why people don't like the Maglev is because it's expensive, not because it's not compatible with steel wheels on rails technology.