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Post by Justin Walker on Mar 23, 2008 21:02:31 GMT -8
Many of us have been following the implementation of the TAP program and Metro's communication of the progress and intentions of this program has been poor at best. Yet, they gave some interesting information about the program roll out in this PowerPoint.If only Metro would start issuing those nifty stored value cards Culver City has been issuing. An aside: at its four Customer Centers, Metro now issues monthly passes and weekly passes on TAP Cards. Metro recently reported "Customers have advised that they prefer paper passes and will be purchasing their passes from a nearby vendor instead of at the customer center."
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Post by metrocenter on May 27, 2008 17:12:35 GMT -8
Well it's the end of May, and I've heard very little about actual availability of the TAP card. Thanks for the PPT file...that's a help. Only the "Customer Centers" have them? OK, great. Now if only there were a customer center that I could get to after I finish work but before they close.
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Post by bluelineshawn on May 27, 2008 21:09:05 GMT -8
Did you try and purchase it on line?
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Post by mattapoisett on May 28, 2008 8:57:25 GMT -8
I have had mixed success with my Tap Card. I have the Culver City Stored Value Card. and when it works, its great but it is expensive since not all of the fare rules are implemented yet. On the other hand, It has not worked on any of the several Metro Buses ridden and I was having trouble on a Culver city Bus which was giving the driver a read/write error on the card.
My other big complaint is the lack of Tap Pylons. for a lot of rail stations there is just one and you have to scramble to get to them then make the train. At Imperial And Wilmington you have to go out of the station to reach the one Tap Pylon even if you are just transferring from the Green to the Blue line. At Aviation where I usually go with my bike and get on the TAP pylon is nowhere near the elevator and not on the platform and I can imagine and elderly or handicap person frustrated about running around the station to pay the fare.
Also a minor quibble the website is not ready for prime time I frequently can't log on and My Tap Cards are not Linked to my login yet. Though when I call customer service, they say check back next month.
Take Care
- P.
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joequality
Junior Member
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 88
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Post by joequality on May 28, 2008 10:34:32 GMT -8
I did the Culver City stored value and it's been working relatively well for me on Metro Bus/Rail and CC buses. The only complaint was that a 33 bus driver said I couldn't pay the transfer with the TAP. (why wouldn't you?)
Where is the TAP website where you can login?
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Post by mattapoisett on May 28, 2008 11:10:27 GMT -8
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joequality
Junior Member
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 88
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Post by joequality on Jun 11, 2008 7:55:03 GMT -8
All of a sudden I cannot use the TAP for municiple transfers on Culver City! One day I got on and when I tapped the second time, the reader says "Passback". I asked the driver what that means and he didnt know but gave me a transfer anyway. Then again today, the CC driver said I wouldnt be able to get a transfer but try anyway. Sure enough the same thing happened. What gives? This used to work. I actually prefer the CC buses over Metro because they allow you to use the TAP for transfers, but now it doesn't matter... lame. What's the point of TAP if you still have to carry cash?
My only thought it maybe they're still working out all the kinks.
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 31, 2008 14:07:55 GMT -8
I just wanted to give my thoughts on TAP and smart cards:
I have to admit that I was somewhat skeptical about "smart card" technology until I tried Suica in Tokyo. I don't want to sound like another "ways others do things better than us" post, but I was really very impressed with it. one card is usuable on every single train, subway and bus in Tokyo (and quite a few shops!). it's simple to use, easy to understand and fares are all done automatically. you "tap" once when you enter a station and you don't have to tap for transfers because you tap again when you leave the subway and the system figures out for you how far you've traveled and how much to deduct from the card. it's even easier if you have a monthly pass, because the pass can be loaded onto the Suica.
I wanted to learn more when I got home, and so I started reading up on Suica and other similar systems. the more I learn, the more I'm convinced that smart cards are perfect for an area like Los Angeles, which has so many municipal bus lines.
Los Angeles' TAP still needs work: more transit systems need to get involved. there needs to be more pylons, and put them in more easily accessible locations. there needs to be more places where you can buy the thing. there ought to be a way to do a direct deposit from your bank account to the TAP card like other cities have.
it's still a fairly new technology, so obviously it will take time for the MTA to work all the bugs out, and it will take time for people to understand how it works, but honestly, I don't see the downside to this.
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Post by jejozwik on Jul 31, 2008 14:11:12 GMT -8
wait what! im supposed to tap on exit too?
what about on the orange line?
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 31, 2008 17:51:40 GMT -8
wait what! im supposed to tap on exit too? what about on the orange line? ah, sorry for the confusion. I was referring specifically to Japan, where they have turnstiles. also, the system there is based on distance, so it really does makes sense to tap on entry and on exit, so the system knows you're not just joyriding around in circles. note that in Tokyo, if you transfer from one line to another line you don't have to tap when you change trains... just when you go through exit gates. in Los Angeles, where the fares aren't based on distance, and we don't have gates, that "tap upon exit" requirement wouldn't make as much sense. if we ever did install turnstiles, (which might not be a bad idea), I would expect us to adopt a "tap on exit" system.
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Post by dasubergeek on Aug 4, 2008 12:36:53 GMT -8
I just wanted to give my thoughts on TAP and smart cards: I have to admit that I was somewhat skeptical about "smart card" technology until I tried Suica in Tokyo. I don't want to sound like another "ways others do things better than us" post, but I was really very impressed with it. one card is usuable on every single train, subway and bus in Tokyo (and quite a few shops!). it's simple to use, easy to understand and fares are all done automatically. you "tap" once when you enter a station and you don't have to tap for transfers because you tap again when you leave the subway and the system figures out for you how far you've traveled and how much to deduct from the card. it's even easier if you have a monthly pass, because the pass can be loaded onto the Suica. I wanted to learn more when I got home, and so I started reading up on Suica and other similar systems. the more I learn, the more I'm convinced that smart cards are perfect for an area like Los Angeles, which has so many municipal bus lines. Los Angeles' TAP still needs work: more transit systems need to get involved. there needs to be more pylons, and put them in more easily accessible locations. there needs to be more places where you can buy the thing. there ought to be a way to do a direct deposit from your bank account to the TAP card like other cities have. it's still a fairly new technology, so obviously it will take time for the MTA to work all the bugs out, and it will take time for people to understand how it works, but honestly, I don't see the downside to this. This is the way the Octopus card in Hong Kong works -- even on vending machines. It's fantastic. Perhaps LA's TAP card will work this way.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 21, 2008 8:14:48 GMT -8
I have a TAP card. One Saturday I found myself in a subway station, and decided to buy a weekly pass, since I was planning to take several trips throughout the weekend. Well guess what? The weekly pass didn't work. I tried and tried, but it would not work. I eventually had to buy tickets, in addition to the pass I had already paid $17 for. Shortly thereafter I contacted Metro about the problem. They explained to me that the weekly pass operates on a calendar week starting on Monday. Therefore, a weekly pass bought on Saturday doesn't begin working until Monday. Now I have to call b-llsh-t on this. I have traveled many metro systems throughout the world, and whenever you buy a weekly pass, you can use it immediately. You certainly don't have to wait until the following week to start using it. And keep in mind: I'm a pretty savvy transit rider. Imagine a tourist family arriving and buying four of these things, only to realize they don't work! At a minimum, the system should warn the unwitting transit rider that they are buying something that won't work until the following Monday. Suffice it to say, Metro knows I was pissed, but I don't believe there are any plans to fix this obvious flaw.
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Post by Justin Walker on Jan 4, 2009 1:12:37 GMT -8
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Post by rayinla on Jan 4, 2009 9:38:54 GMT -8
Once people get accustomed to it, that should speed up boarding. However, if they really wanted to speed up boarding, they would require prepayment for ALL fares (single ride and day pass) before boarding like the Metrocard system in New York. I would think prepayment using something like the TAP card for a single fare would be even faster than the Metrocard since it doesn't have to be "dipped".
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Post by damiengoodmon on Jan 4, 2009 13:16:20 GMT -8
Once people get accustomed to it, that should speed up boarding. I'm not so sure about that. This ain't the Culver City paper card system, where you put in money and a paper ticket comes out of the machine. First you have to TAP. Then load the money. Then TAP again. It's much faster to just load the money into the machine, while people with weeklies/monthlies pass you by. Usually, by the time people have entered their 4th dollar the operator is holding out the day pass, and may have pulled away from the stop. I'll be interested to see how this is going to work on the buses. Going total TAP on fixed guideway for all trips (one trip, two trips, day pass, weekly, etc.) is clearly a much better alternative than paper. But it may not be on buses. Perhaps a second and smaller TAP machine should be added to the entrance (if there's space)? People paying would load in the machine to the right, while those with passes would TAP and enter on the left side.
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Post by rayinla on Jan 4, 2009 13:56:48 GMT -8
My bad, I should have looked into the way it was going to operate before shooting my mouth off.
I didn't realize passengers would have to load their card on the bus.
I just assumed the system was sophisticated enough to deduct the fare from the prepaid card every time you tapped and stop deducting once you'd hit the day pass "cap" for that day.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Jan 4, 2009 19:26:46 GMT -8
Nothing more annoying than waiting in the Rapid as people try to buy their day pass with wrinkled ones or putting in 50 dimes while the same Local bus passes by each time. What should be worked on is putting in TVMs at busy bus stops and at least provide a discount to those who pay outside the bus as an incentive.
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Post by wad on Jan 7, 2009 5:21:19 GMT -8
Perhaps a second and smaller TAP machine should be added to the entrance (if there's space)? People paying would load in the machine to the right, while those with passes would TAP and enter on the left side. The problem is that bus doors aren't wide enough to allow for two flows of movement. What Metro ought to consider is "fare control stops". At places like Metro Rail stations, there should be two stops: near side to discharge passengers and far side for boardings. At these stops, ticket inspectors would stand by the back door(s) and allow for passengers with TAP cards to board using all doors.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 22, 2009 2:16:12 GMT -8
Ticket inspectors? Live people? Paid help? The trend in transit since the development of the Birney streetcar has been to cut the number of people on the payroll. I just applied for a Senior TAP card--apparently starting next month I won't be about to buy a discount day pass without one. I'm wondering about casual transit users--tourists, people whose cars are down for repairs etc. Will they still be able to take a bus home from the garage or body shop, or take a bus downtown for jury duty by just depositing cash in a farebox? How about someone taking the Gold Line to Union Station for an Amtrak trip? I can see charging tourists more--consider that SF Muni socks the visitors $5.00 to ride a cable car.
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Post by Transit Coalition on Feb 22, 2009 8:44:57 GMT -8
Yes, with the TAP card, Metro will accept CASH for only Single Trip Rides.
Same thing, you will be able to purchase a single trip ride for cash. I think SF Muni Cable Car rides are now $8.
Now, for multiple trip rides (transfers in the journey), you either pay a base fare on each vehicle or use a TAP card. The TAP card is available in 200 locations. (Just imagine only 200 gas stations or convenience stores in the Metro service area!) It becomes a treasure hunt to find a TAP sales location if you aren't in the Westside / Central region. Sylmar has either zero or one TAP vendor. The one or two TAP vendors in San Fernando are open short hours: 11-2 on Sundays and 10-7 weekdays and Saturdays, so unless you are a weekly or a monthly pass holder, you will have a great challenge to use TAP as a Day Pass.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 22, 2009 21:14:16 GMT -8
Thanks for the clarification; sounds like Metro is trying to make it easier for the agency while making the system less user friendly. Certainly TAP cards (and similar cards elsewhere) cut down (or at least attempt to cut down) on the amount of physical money that has to be collected by armed guards, sorted, deposited and (we hope) not "high-graded" by sticky fingered employees.
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Post by Transit Coalition on Mar 12, 2009 11:14:17 GMT -8
Los Angeles Times: 11:15 AM, Thursday, March 12, 2009Is the TAP card ready for prime time? MTA says 'yes'by Steve Hymon Local transit officials are about take another step into the modern age. Beginning Sunday, riders on buses operated by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority won't receive paper tickets when they buy a $5 day pass. Instead they'll get a TAP card, which resembles a credit card and is used as a bus or train ticket. Think of it as a Starbucks or iTunes card, except in this case it's used to pay for certain types of bus or train rides. Like so many things in life it sounds wondrously simple. And, in fact, other cities have already adopted similar cards -- Washington, D.C.'s Metro and New York City Transit are good examples. But the TAP card here is still a long ways away from what was envisioned by transit officials. Here's a brief Q&A to answer some of the basics: Q: Where can I get a TAP card?A: The MTA will be giving them away to bus riders until mid-April or until supplies run out. Otherwise, you can buy one at the TAP card website or by visiting one of the 400 or so locations where the cards are sold. There's a listing in alphabetical order of sites where the cards are sold on the website. That, of course, doesn't do much good if you want to search by location. (More on the website in a moment.) The cards also are not yet sold via the ticket machines at rail stations, but will be later in the year, says the MTA. In the meantime, the TAP cards can be reloaded at those machines with either weekly or monthly passes. Q: How will the new system work on Sunday?A: Bus riders who put $5 in the farebox will be given a TAP card with a day pass loaded onto it. That's all they need for the rest of their MTA bus or train rides that day -- just hold the card up to the TAP reader when boarding the bus or train and you're set. The hope at the MTA is that riders do not throw away their TAP cards at day's end. For that reason, the MTA has asked me to tell riders "HEY, DON'T THROW AWAY YOUR TAP CARD AT DAY'S END! YOU CAN REUSE IT!" MTA officials prefer that riders keep the card and reload it online, at a rail ticket vending machine or on the bus. For example, a rider can come back the next day and have a TAP card reloaded with another day pass. MTA officials say that it will be possible for a rider to purchase and store up to eight day passes on the card at outlets that sell the cards, but not online or at ticket machines. Q: Could the tap to go website be any more confusing?A: The website currently doesn't permit a day pass to be loaded, it's hard to figure out how much money is already on a card and it's only in English. Also, as far as I can tell, the website will only allow riders to purchase weekly or monthly passes whereas occasional riders (such as yours truly) may want to put $20 on the card for occasional single rides here and there. A new and more user-friendly website will be debuting within a month, says Jane Matsumoto, the MTA's deputy executive officer for TAP operations. The new version is currently being edited and tested, she said. Q: Will the new website be in English only?A: Matsumoto says that the new website will also be in Spanish when it debuts. When I suggested that was perhaps very shortsighted given the diversity of people that can be found on an MTA bus, Matsumoto agreed. "You're not getting any argument here," she said, adding that the decision over language was controlled by the MTA's marketing department. MTA Spokesman Dave Sotero quizzed the marketing folks about the language issue and was told that the agency focuses on English- and Spanish-language materials because demand for other languages is not nearly as high. Q: What about the issue of loading the card with a few bucks for occasional single rides?A: Riders should have that option in the near future, Sotero said. Q: Is all this too confusing for the average rider?A: That remains to be seen. Some local transit advocates are hopeful. Bart Reed, executive director of the Transit Coalition, said that he had some concerns about the way that the technology was being rolled out by the MTA -- specifically about how riders would obtain the cards -- but is now hopeful it will work.
"I think riders will figure it out and figure out the convenience," Reed said. "It's a brand new technology, but it's the same riders and they'll learn to get it. They've rolled it out in different cities." Q: What is the eventual goal with the TAP card?A: Although cash fares will still be an option in the future, the idea is to make the TAP card good for rides on all the different transit agencies in the county. That's a goal that will require cooperation between many agencies with different fares. It will also require the approval of the politicians and board members who oversee many of the transit agencies -- many of whom never take mass transit, by the way. (Yes, that's a fact that I believe can never be repeated too often.) Some forward-thinking agencies are moving in that direction. Foothill Transit, which operates buses in the San Gabriel Valley, is scheduled to begin using the TAP card this spring. Riders will be able to use the same TAP card on Foothill Transit and MTA buses and trains -- which is helpful, for example, for someone taking a Foothill bus to the MTA's Gold Line light rail. I'm sure that readers who frequent MTA buses and trains will have a few questions or comments about the cards. That's why we've got a comment board, people.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 14, 2009 21:13:32 GMT -8
I just checked the SFMTA website and the cable car fare is still $5.00. Last time I visited MuniLand, I went to the ticket kiosk near the Powell St. turntable and bought a $10.00 monthly senior pass, even though I was just there for a few days. It's one of the advantages of being old enough to remember the Pacific Electric Monrovia Line. First time I rode Muni was in 1967, and the fare was 15 cents, including cable cars.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 15, 2009 20:20:08 GMT -8
I was watching CBS2 news and they had a story about TAP starting tomorrow, except they repeatedly stated that TAP was for Metrolink and even showed stock Metrolink footage even as they said "Metrolink trains and buses". It's incredible how no one at the local news stations has the slightest clue about public transportation. I hear Metro referred to as "Metrolink" about as often as I hear "Metro". Maybe even more often.
Really the names are too similar. I can understand why people would get confused at first, but surely someone should know.
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Post by ieko on Mar 15, 2009 21:01:00 GMT -8
I was watching CBS2 news and they had a story about TAP starting tomorrow, except they repeatedly stated that TAP was for Metrolink and even showed stock Metrolink footage even as they said "Metrolink trains and buses". It's incredible how no one at the local news stations has the slightest clue about public transportation. I hear Metro referred to as "Metrolink" about as often as I hear "Metro". Maybe even more often. Really the names are too similar. I can understand why people would get confused at first, but surely someone should know. I think even people who do know the difference get confused, I know when I speak to someone I have to make sure they understand which one I'm talking about. Metrolink really ought to have a different name.
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Post by Transit Coalition on Mar 15, 2009 22:28:10 GMT -8
I was watching CBS2 news and they had a story about TAP starting tomorrow, except they repeatedly stated that TAP was for Metrolink and even showed stock Metrolink footage even as they said "Metrolink trains and buses". It's incredible how no one at the local news stations has the slightest clue about public transportation. I hear Metro referred to as "Metrolink" about as often as I hear "Metro". Maybe even more often. Really the names are too similar. I can understand why people would get confused at first, but surely someone should know. I think even people who do know the difference get confused, I know when I speak to someone I have to make sure they understand which one I'm talking about. Metrolink really ought to have a different name. I did a spot check ride along field study on the new TAP card usage on Lines 31, 260, 445 and 81. All the riders were just fine and were taping away. All the Coach Operators thought the public was doing just fine and all thought things would work out just fine. On the Gold Line, one sheriff was doing a fare check and I asked him how he would know if my TAP card was valid. He touched it with some sort of Blue Light and claimed the card was OK. That seemed odd. Any thoughts?
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Post by ieko on Mar 16, 2009 4:09:29 GMT -8
I think even people who do know the difference get confused, I know when I speak to someone I have to make sure they understand which one I'm talking about. Metrolink really ought to have a different name. I did a spot check ride along field study on the new TAP card usage on Lines 31, 260, 445 and 81. All the riders were just fine and were taping away. All the Coach Operators thought the public was doing just fine and all thought things would work out just fine. On the Gold Line, one sheriff was doing a fare check and I asked him how he would know if my TAP card was valid. He touched it with some sort of Blue Light and claimed the card was OK. That seemed odd. Any thoughts? I'm not 100% sure but I believe TAP uses RFID technology, so a blue light would do nothing. RFID uses radio frequencies to transmit data through a short distance (hence RF in RFID). A small device could very well be used to authenticate a card, but I don't imagine the authenticators to be terribly complex, so they'd probably have a screen displaying simple information like a time-stamp of when the fare was purchased, and things like route #/rail line, then you can get into more complicated things like direction of travel and the place the fare was purchased at like a blue line station or something.
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Post by wakko11 on Mar 16, 2009 8:41:30 GMT -8
From what I understand, the Gold Line Eastside Extension stations are going to have the new fare gates which will only operate with the TAP card.
I heard this from colleagues at MTA, but I hope they're wrong.
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Post by ieko on Mar 16, 2009 10:54:17 GMT -8
From what I understand, the Gold Line Eastside Extension stations are going to have the new fare gates which will only operate with the TAP card. I heard this from colleagues at MTA, but I hope they're wrong. I hope everyone has TAP by then because if not I'll be gate hoping with my EZ-Pass.... The TAP website isn't very encouraging for the rollout to local agencies. By the way, there really ought to be a student EZ-Pass.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 16, 2009 17:21:41 GMT -8
I wonder if the blue light might show some sort of nearly invisible marking or holographic image? That might indicate whether or not it was a legitimate card although it wouldn't indicate if it were valid. I don't have a TAP card yet since I don't ride every day so I may be way off.
I noticed lots of people tapping between the blue and red lines this weekend. Most people did not, but there are lots of riders on the weekend that don't ride all of the time so that could be the reason.
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