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Post by erict on Jul 23, 2009 13:22:50 GMT -8
I think you tap when you transfer between lines or busses i.e. going downstairs from the Blue/Expo line to the Red line, you need to tap before you get onboard - which could be a minor pain.. These transfer taps could really slow down the transfers. I assume ultimately there will be gates you must pass through first to transfer and tap. So I bet the TAP does keep prefect check of what stations you have passed by and stopped on.
e.
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Post by spokker on Jul 23, 2009 14:10:32 GMT -8
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jul 23, 2009 19:20:15 GMT -8
That's incredible! While I don't think that we need turnstiles, this is ridiculous. They debate for two years, make a decision, hire and pay contractors, enter into contracts, start construction, and then decide to delay?!?
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Post by spokker on Jul 23, 2009 20:10:17 GMT -8
Leahy made that decision and he's only been CEO for a few months now. He wasn't around when they made the decision to do fare gates, and now he's putting his foot down. It's obvious there is a problem, whether he is ultimately for fare gates or not. It's obvious he doesn't like what's going on.
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Post by wakko11 on Aug 3, 2009 6:39:02 GMT -8
Got to use the TAP turnstiles installed at Union Station this morning. They worked pretty well. The screen is much brighter and clearer than the ones on the regular TAP machines. I can actually read that my pass expires on 08/31/09 at a glance.
Good to see that the MTA is on its way on installing these gates. Now they just have to get them in the rest of the stations...
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 3, 2009 13:22:33 GMT -8
We should have EZ Pass on TAP by now. But doing anything in L.A. of any significance has to be difficult.
It's like a 30-minute striptease. I was interested for the first five minutes, but now I'm just bored.
I can only imagine that Mr. Leahy has been advised of some legal issue, like ADA, that was never addressed.
I've had my TAP card for a year now, and I still can't use it on SM BBB. Unbelievable.
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Post by dasubergeek on Aug 3, 2009 14:57:36 GMT -8
Got to use the TAP turnstiles installed at Union Station this morning. They worked pretty well. The screen is much brighter and clearer than the ones on the regular TAP machines. I can actually read that my pass expires on 08/31/09 at a glance. Good to see that the MTA is on its way on installing these gates. Now they just have to get them in the rest of the stations... I'm confused -- please clarify. They're putting the turnstiles in already? Or are these TAP columns? They need to get TAP actually WORKING before putting in the turnstiles. Of course, five'll get you ten they won't. I need to be able to put a running balance on my TAP card before I can tap through a turnstile, because I'm certainly not going to buy a daypass just to ride the Red Line and back once. Also, it needs to be easier to GET a TAP card. LA is not alone in this -- it is more difficult than necessary to get an Octopus Card in HK.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 3, 2009 15:12:31 GMT -8
I'm sounding like a broken record now, but Metro should send a couple of consultants to London to see what they're doing. In London, you can buy the Oyster Card just about anywhere. Or online. And you can top up at any station, or online. It acts in debit form, or as an unlimited pass. And yes, it works with turnstiles.
It has been done elsewhere. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. And there's no penalty for stealing these ideas.
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Post by wakko11 on Aug 4, 2009 11:45:37 GMT -8
Got to use the TAP turnstiles installed at Union Station this morning. They worked pretty well. The screen is much brighter and clearer than the ones on the regular TAP machines. I can actually read that my pass expires on 08/31/09 at a glance. Good to see that the MTA is on its way on installing these gates. Now they just have to get them in the rest of the stations... I'm confused -- please clarify. They're putting the turnstiles in already? Or are these TAP columns? They need to get TAP actually WORKING before putting in the turnstiles. Of course, five'll get you ten they won't. I need to be able to put a running balance on my TAP card before I can tap through a turnstile, because I'm certainly not going to buy a daypass just to ride the Red Line and back once. Also, it needs to be easier to GET a TAP card. LA is not alone in this -- it is more difficult than necessary to get an Octopus Card in HK. These are the turnstiles and they are on the Vignes side of the Red Line portal. I entered through the Alameda side and only the pedestals were there.
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Post by James Fujita on Aug 5, 2009 10:36:37 GMT -8
I was just reading about the TransLink, which is the Bay Area equivalent to the Octopus, Oyster, Suica, etc. Specfically I was reading an article on how BART is joining TransLink and I was shocked at how positive the feedback was.
Apparently they have the stored value function up and running already. AND you can use it at BART, Muni, AC Transit and Golden Gate (TAP a ferry?). Their Web site says that CalTrain will be added soon (and they have a huge list of other bus lines they intend to add). AND you can "autoload" the TransLink card, meaning you don't have to keep refilling it as long as you have a credit card account.
Oh, and you can buy the card at Walgreens. Or order one online. I'm tempted to buy one myself!
C'mon Metro, where's your sense of Southern California pride? San Francisco is way ahead of us in the smart card game. If CalTrain can do it, why can't Metrolink?
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Post by losangeles2319 on Aug 5, 2009 19:50:03 GMT -8
That is REALLY depressing! Why isn't Metrolink opting to switch?
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Post by spokker on Aug 5, 2009 23:53:57 GMT -8
They don't have the resources at the moment. They spent the money searching passengers' bags and suing web site owners.
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Post by spokker on Aug 8, 2009 17:38:43 GMT -8
I heard a report on KNX 1070 about the fare gates. The reporter said that the gates will be able to accept paper passes, but I don't see where you would put those passes.
Also, a friend of mine bought a one-way Metrolink ticket from Union Station and it had a barcode on it (which I saw with my own eyes). Anybody know what this is about?
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Post by spokker on Aug 8, 2009 17:41:17 GMT -8
I have some observations from watching fare gate action for five minutes today. This was from a Saturday just before 5PM.
1. An older couple is coming from the Red Line toward the west portal and sees the gates. The woman says, "I think we have to go the other way." They start to head back down to the platforms and to the east portal without gates. I walk toward them and tell them that the fare gates are just in testing mode and that they should just walk through.
2. A man takes his heavy bag, lifts it above his head and walks through the turnstiles. What happens when someone lifts up their bag to get it over the turnstiles, overestimates their strength and drops it on somebody?
3. Not surprisingly, people tapping their paper passes.
4. A small crowd exits the Purple Line and makes their way up to the west portal. There is actually some delay as the fare gates succumb to this small Purple Line crowd. I wonder how it's going to do when Metrolink trains are spurting their loads all over the east portal...
5. This one is hard to explain, but people walking across the area in front of the gates to get to the gate without a turnstile. This causes others to have to stop for the cyclist to pass, delaying things even more. Before this wasn't a problem because the cyclist could just continue on.
I see long term problems rearing their ugly heads when they are fully implemented. How will they be able to handle Metrolink when people are already queuing up to walk through free-spinning gates?
The turnstiles really suck. They should have been BART-style gates if they are so hellbent on these things.
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Post by James Fujita on Aug 8, 2009 21:47:15 GMT -8
I heard a report on KNX 1070 about the fare gates. The reporter said that the gates will be able to accept paper passes, but I don't see where you would put those passes. regarding paper tickets and paper passes, the MTA's press release on the turnstiles says, "current paper fare media will continue transitioning to TAP smart cards. One-way paper tickets sold at the ticket vending machines in the stations will be replaced with paper, limited-use smart cards to enable cash riders who don’t have regular TAP cards to enter and exit through the fare gates." in other words, people who have passes will have to get TAP cards. but people who buy single tickets will be able to usse "paper smart cards" which operate the same way as TAP cards. there's nothing fundamentally magical about any of this. even Spokker's report about people acting confused and stupid around the turnstiles isn't anything to get shocked, angry, dismayed or overly worried about. obviously, people aren't used to the idea. they'll adjust to the idea. if people can adjust to light rail crossing gates, they can certainly adjust to subway station fare gates. for the record, I also prefer gate doors to turnstiles. but even if people act like the Three Stooges around the turnstiles today, by the time the fare gates are fully implemented, they'll be more like this
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 2, 2009 14:42:32 GMT -8
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Post by James Fujita on Sept 9, 2009 15:08:14 GMT -8
Good news for TAP users!
===
Dear Mr. Fujita, You may be pleased to know that current plans are to add a "cash value" option to the Metro TAP Card later this year. As you state, currently, Culver City and Foothill Transit have stored or cash value options. Value added at these providers can be used on Metro Bus and Rail Lines.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. Metro Customer Relations
-----Original Message----- From: James Fujita Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 11:39 AM To: customerservice@taptogo.net Cc: Customer Relations; mayor@lacity.org; anajarian@ci.glendale.ca.us Subject: TAP cards
When will Metro activate the "stored value" cash function on the TAP card?
I have been told that it is already possible to have a TAP card in Culver City or on Foothill Transit and have the equivalent of $20 loaded onto the card which can then be used to ride the bus on those municipal systems.
However, I have also been told that I can not use that $20 to ride the bus or the subway in Los Angeles.
This makes no sense to me. In other cities such as Tokyo, or even in San Francisco, I can load and reload cash onto a smart card, and use that card on any public transit: subways, light rail, buses, commuter trains, even on competing systems and municipal buses. Transferring from bus to train is quick and easy.
As Los Angeles County makes this very important and necessary transition from paper tickets to smart cards, it is crucial that people get the impression that TAP is going to be more valuable than paper tickets or paper passes - especially when the Metro Red Line is installing fare gates that only operate on TAP cards or "paper smart cards".
I support the TAP card concept and I even support fare gates (although I think it would be better to have actual "gates" rather than turnstiles). But, I think that the stored value function has to be implemented on Metro for TAP to reach its full potential.
My dream would be for all transit systems in Los Angeles County, and maybe even Orange County, to use TAP, including Metrolink and maybe even Amtrak. I would love to be able to just TAP my way across Southern California. But it's not going to happen if the MTA drags its feet on the most important part, the stored cash value.
I know it can't be a technical problem if Foothill Transit has cash on TAP. When will the MTA allow cash on TAP?
Thanks for reading this,
- James Fujita
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Post by James Fujita on Sept 11, 2009 20:20:16 GMT -8
update to the previous post: Interestingly, TAP-to-go's customer service people took longer to answer my question and didn't quite answer it as fully as I would have liked. Oddly, they do say that I can use "cash value" in Gardena, which is something I hadn't heard previously. Gardena is a bus line I might actually use, unlike the other munis mentioned. = Dear Customer, At this time cash value is only available at the following transit centers: Foothill, Norwalk, Gardena, Culver City, Santa Clarita and the Montebello Bus Line. You may use your card on the rail system, for future updates and news you may visit our website at www.taptogo.net. Thank you, Regional TAP Service Center 866-TAPTOGO (866-827-8646) www.taptogo.net/
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 20, 2009 19:10:35 GMT -8
Here's a map of all of the stations that are getting gates/turnstiles. According to this handout they will be completed Jan-Feb and activated in May-June. I can only assume that they mean 2010 although I don't see where they say. IIRC this matches my earlier prediction except I assumed that Memorial Park would get turnstiles and I didn't expect that Compton would. Compton is the only station at grade that is getting turnstiles. [Edit: Atlantic is also getting turnstiles at the end of the gold line. Edit 2: and Artesia]
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 20, 2009 19:14:22 GMT -8
And Chinatown is the only grade separated station that isn't getting turnstiles. I didn't predict that either.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 20, 2009 20:02:48 GMT -8
Also, according to this memo from a year ago, the assumption was that they would have somewhere around 8 total stations with station agents. Three with fixed positions and 7 "roving" agents at a total of 8 stations. I haven't seen anywhere where they have said that the number will be anywhere near that, but there will be at least some station agents. Metro model mirrors the Port Authority Trans Hudson (PATH) • Customer Service Agents at the busiest stations during peak hours • CCTV/telephones linked to a central location or other locations • CCTV system aids police patrol personnel
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Post by erict on Dec 21, 2009 7:34:07 GMT -8
In my opinion every station with gates will need agents or gate monitors. But maybe I am wrong. I took the RED line Vermont Sunset to Hollywood and Vine and I did notice a lot more people are paying for tickets rather than just walking on the train. The new Hollywood Vine station looks much nicer with the yellow canopy and cleaner modern look.
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 22, 2009 18:08:53 GMT -8
if it were up to me, every station would have station attendants and gates.
EDIT: station attendants, especially. think of all of the "how does this thing work?" and "which track will the train be coming on?" "is this Union Station?" and "does this train go there?" questions that could be answered if there were more people posted at the stations...
of course, if it were up to me, transit would get a larger share of the federal transpo bill, gas taxes would be higher and.... well, you get the point!
(hey! here's an idea... station attendants ought to be stimulus jobs, am I right? )
still, this is a step in the right direction. I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of Blue Line stations included.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 22, 2009 21:40:39 GMT -8
I'm surprised that at-grade blue line stations are getting turnstiles, but only because I can't imagine how they will work. At Artesia I guess that they could move the TVM's to the sidewalk near the bus stops, but then where would the turnstiles be located? Not enough room at the end of the ramp for both turnstiles and disabled access. They could put them where the existing gates are, but that would potentially mean that people are waiting on the tracks to exit. Actually now that I think about it that sidewalk is probably wide enough that they could move back 10 feet and create a new entrance location.
But what about Compton? The only entrance is across Track 1 (NB). Oh, but then again they are rebuilding the street and sidewalk. Perhaps they have plans to widen the sidewalk to leave room for TVM's and turnstiles?
And speaking of TVM's does anyone recall if there are plans for new TVM's that dispense TAP cards? It will be a shame if infrequent riders and tourists aren't able to ride the trains.
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Post by Philip on Dec 22, 2009 22:30:20 GMT -8
if it were up to me, every station would have station attendants and gates. EDIT: station attendants, especially. think of all of the "how does this thing work?" and "which track will the train be coming on?" "is this Union Station?" and "does this train go there?" questions that could be answered if there were more people posted at the stations... of course, if it were up to me, transit would get a larger share of the federal transpo bill, gas taxes would be higher and.... well, you get the point! (hey! here's an idea... station attendants ought to be stimulus jobs, am I right? ) still, this is a step in the right direction. I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of Blue Line stations included. Agreed. New York and Philadelphia have attendants at all of their stops. L.A. needs to step up on this pronto.
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Post by jeisenbe on Dec 23, 2009 0:06:18 GMT -8
With attendants at every fare gate station the TAP cards will never pay for themselves! Big surprise. Yes, they need TAP cards to be more readily available, and you need to be able to add fares in small amounts at TVMs, like with BART tickets. I have tried to buy a TAP card before and could not find anywhere in Long Beach to do it. If you order online you have to buy a month pass as well which I don't want (I prefer the EasyPass, so I can get LB Transit for just $10 more). The concept is a good one, but the execution has been horrible. And how are the sheriffs going to enforce this, again? Sigh.
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Post by erict on Dec 23, 2009 9:28:33 GMT -8
TAP would allow Metro, if it decided, to charge a distance based fee like many other systems in the world. I am assuming that is really the whole point of the system.
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 23, 2009 13:21:20 GMT -8
I like the idea of distance-based fares. it always made sense to me when I was visiting a city such as San Francisco or Tokyo. the further you went, the more you paid. short trips cost less, express trains cost more.
of course, both of those cities have excellent smart cards where I could load as much cash as I needed, via computer even, and not have to worry about whether it was a Muni train, bus, BART or whatever (or in the case of Tokyo, Ginza, Yamanote or private line).
how the MTA has managed to muck up TAP as badly as they have is beyond me, when TAP should obviously be the simplest and easiest way to use transit.
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Post by Justin Walker on Jan 18, 2011 14:13:05 GMT -8
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Post by James Fujita on Jan 18, 2011 17:48:34 GMT -8
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