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Post by wrcousert on Aug 7, 2008 20:40:14 GMT -8
It takes nearly an hour to ride from downtown Long Beach to downtown L.A.
Can anything be done to decrease that time?
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Mac
Full Member
Posts: 192
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Post by Mac on Aug 7, 2008 20:48:35 GMT -8
One option would be to extend the Flower Street tunnel south, thus grade separating the downtown portion of the line which currently runs on the street. This might not be done until maybe expo or downtown connector is finished.
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Post by wrcousert on Aug 7, 2008 20:55:33 GMT -8
Sounds good. It would be nice if they could grade separate the Long Beach portion as well. Most of that is in the streets.
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Post by Tony Fernandez on Aug 7, 2008 22:15:30 GMT -8
Giving trains signal priority would help a lot, but I don't know if the DOT would allow it.
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Post by wrcousert on Aug 7, 2008 22:49:30 GMT -8
Giving trains signal priority would help a lot, but I don't know if the DOT would allow it. Why not? OCTA will be doing it with their new BRT lines. Do you know how much time this would save?
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Post by Tony Fernandez on Aug 8, 2008 11:58:13 GMT -8
I heard somewhere that they wouldn't allow it for the Orange Line, so I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't allow it right south of downtown.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Aug 8, 2008 17:21:04 GMT -8
Blue line trains already have signal priority although even that can get off kilter at rush hour with so many trains. The cars have to be able to go through some of the time, after all. Trains stop at some of the lights on Washington and Flower, but rarely between Long Beach and Washington. Long time riders may remember how the blue line used to stop regularly at those lights as well.
Anyway Metro is already considering giving the trains even greater signal priority or grade separating Flower.
Where they don't have signal priority is in Long Beach. I thought that I read that they would when they start running all of the trains to Long Beach instead of terminating half the rush hour trains at Willow. I can't remember where I read that, so I may be not remembering correctly.
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Post by JerardWright on Sept 4, 2008 8:40:24 GMT -8
That sounds right, and by giving signal priority in Long Beach that would improve trip times by an estimate of 4-5 minutes at the end of the line without grade separation. Other strategic pieces would include removing the CPUC speed restriction on the route between Artesia and Wardlow Station since there are no grade crossings there and have that corridor operate up to 65mph shaving another 2-3 minutes from the running time.
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Post by Tony Fernandez on Sept 4, 2008 9:57:43 GMT -8
So just with signal priority and that other speed restriction that can save about 10 minutes. Is there anything that can be done to increase the speed at which the trains run on Washington? If the trains didn't have to stop at all how much time would that save? Would gated crossings be necessary for that? Looking at the timetables it looks like it would be possible, but it would have a pretty big impact on north-south traffic.
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Post by JerardWright on Sept 4, 2008 11:12:34 GMT -8
Not much that can be done for that. Gating the crossings could work but all that will be gained is 60-90 seconds for all green lights with signal priority or 2-3 minutes for a few red light stops on Washington Blvd. The other issue would be where on Washington Blvd do have room for these gates? This is the same problem in Highland Park on the Gold Line. Building a gated crossing would be nice until the realization hits that there's no room to safely put the gates. on Marimion Way.
Our best bet for grade separation would be for overall capacity rather than for speed. Once the Regional Connector comes into play that will be best need for thinking of a grade separated alignment to replace Washington Blvd at-grade.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Sept 4, 2008 15:23:53 GMT -8
That sounds right, and by giving signal priority in Long Beach that would improve trip times by an estimate of 4-5 minutes at the end of the line without grade separation. Other strategic pieces would include removing the CPUC speed restriction on the route between Artesia and Wardlow Station since there are no grade crossings there and have that corridor operate up to 65mph shaving another 2-3 minutes from the running time. There's one grade crossing a mile or so south of Artesia station and then there's also a crossover a little south of that if that makes a difference. There's also a crossover or two by the yard. And I don't think that trains can travel over that bridge by the yard greater than 55 mph. It shakes at high speeds as it is. Probably because of the crossover.
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Mac
Full Member
Posts: 192
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Post by Mac on Sept 4, 2008 17:02:38 GMT -8
Our best bet for grade separation would be for overall capacity rather than for speed. Once the Regional Connector comes into play that will be best need for thinking of a grade separated alignment to replace Washington Blvd at-grade. Yep, once expo and the downtown connector are finished, we might be talking 1-2 minute headways during rush hour (if the ridership supports it) from 7th to pico, which would not be possible if it were still at grade. But for now, there really is no potential to grade separate, but signal priority sounds like a good idea for now.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Sept 4, 2008 21:12:20 GMT -8
Our best bet for grade separation would be for overall capacity rather than for speed. Once the Regional Connector comes into play that will be best need for thinking of a grade separated alignment to replace Washington Blvd at-grade. Yep, once expo and the downtown connector are finished, we might be talking 1-2 minute headways during rush hour (if the ridership supports it) from 7th to pico, which would not be possible if it were still at grade. But for now, there really is no potential to grade separate, but signal priority sounds like a good idea for now. 1 minute headways? That's 60 TPH! Even the fully grade separated Moscow subway which IINM has the most frequent headways in the world is only something like 40 TPH (90 seconds) at its busiest points. They've indicated that they're probably going to be looking at grade separation just to reach the anticipated 24 TPH, but I can't imagine that anyone is thinking 40+ TPH on just two tracks.
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Adrian Auer-Hudson
Junior Member
Supporter of "Expo Light Rail - Enabler for the Digital Coast".
Posts: 65
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Post by Adrian Auer-Hudson on Sept 5, 2008 12:11:22 GMT -8
60 TPH, on a double track route, cannot be achieved with currently available technology.
24 TPH is reasonable and achievable.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 19, 2011 14:30:16 GMT -8
I am on the Blue Line right now and man this Long Beach portion is horrible! It's. Not light rail here, it's a streetcar. If Long Beach wanted a streetcar, it should be a separate project. Long Beach has hijacked the Blue Line and made it a streetcar. I'm terrified of what we'll see with the Expo Line between Bergamont and 4th street station. Santa Monica should have gone underground past Lincoln. Santa Monica have hijacked the Expo Line into a streetcar. The only city that did it right - Culver City. At least LA has given signal priority on Washington blvd, will we expect the same on Flower for Expo Line? All this slow street running gives light rail a bad perception, that's why LRT boosters have to keep defending light rail projects, whereas heavy rail, it's just about the cost.
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Post by James Fujita on Feb 19, 2011 15:05:11 GMT -8
I hate to say it, but in 1990, if you had suggested a subway south of Willow in Long Beach, people would have laughed at you. Tunneling is expensive, and people weren't convinced this whole light rail thing was going to work ( except for crazy rail fans, of courseSome of the early plans for the Blue Line had the train going straight down to Ocean Boulevard with no loop. But Long Beach wanted its transit mall, which honestly hasn't been a bad idea. They've been constantly making improvements to First Street. I don't know why they don't synchronize the signals better, but anything beyond surface-level light rail was never considered. Certainly not in any plans made public.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Feb 19, 2011 15:18:08 GMT -8
It takes 16 minutes to travel 2.5 miles from Willow Station to Long Beach Transit Mall. There just doesn't seem to be cooperation from local municipalities when transit priority is involved; just like how Metro Rapid 720 crawls within Beverly Hills' border.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 19, 2011 19:53:47 GMT -8
Some of the newer members of this board may not be aware of how the Blue Line opened with most of its platforms designed for two-car trains. It wasn't that many years later that Metro (or its predecessor) had to call in contractors to extend the platforms for three-car consists. Now all the trains running during daylight hours have three cars, and there are often standing loads, even at off-peak hours. Regarding the lack of cooperation from Long Beach with regard to re programming the traffic signals for transit priority: Maybe someone who lives in the area can tell us--is it that the city government is ornery or are they expecting Metro to pay for improvements? Do they set the signals to favor their own "in house" bus system, or do they just not care because few if any of the denizens of City Hall ride the trains?
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 19, 2011 20:46:17 GMT -8
Bob, I live in Long Beach and would love to help get signal premption for the trains. Currently the lights are not timed for buses... They are not even well timed for cars. Perhaps I should complain to my councilmember?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 19, 2011 23:47:08 GMT -8
Bob, I live in Long Beach and would love to help get signal premption for the trains. Currently the lights are not timed for buses... They are not even well timed for cars. Perhaps I should complain to my councilmember? If you can get the names of the council members who represent the Long Beach city, please post here and we can all send them messages to help speed up the Blue Line. It's a shame that the Blue Line is not providing a competitive advantage in Long Beach. I remember Washington boulevard was the same for a quite well, but in the last 2 years, it seems LA synchronized those lights well, so you feel like you're sailing down Washington. Now, if only we can get East LA to do the same for 3rd street!!!!!
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Post by rubbertoe on Feb 20, 2011 14:00:17 GMT -8
It takes 16 minutes to travel 2.5 miles from Willow Station to Long Beach Transit Mall. There just doesn't seem to be cooperation from local municipalities when transit priority is involved; just like how Metro Rapid 720 crawls within Beverly Hills' border. Tony, Once the Gold Line gets past the 5 block slow portion in Highland Park, it has signal priority the entire way to the end of the line in Sierra Madre. I am assuming the foothill extension will also, given the large distances involved. RT
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Post by crzwdjk on Feb 20, 2011 15:24:45 GMT -8
The Gold Line actually has signal priority on the Highland Park section too: there are sensors on the trackway that detect a train and change the lights to let it through with no delay. Just about the only time this breaks down is when two trains pass each on that section, and even then, it's not that much of a delay. The Blue Line, on the other hand, only has signal synchronization, which means that once a train gets a green light at one intersection, it will generally keep getting green lights until the next station. At the start of the street running section and after each station the train might need to wait for the start of the cycle (that's what the countdown timer at 7th/Metro is for), and if it gets delayed on the way, it will have to wait as well.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 20, 2011 16:55:37 GMT -8
I have a friend coming up to downtown LA from downtown LB right now...it's his first time on Metro rail (he wants to avoid driving in LA due to the NBA all-star game..which is awesome btw) and he has sent me some texts complaining about the slowness of the Blue Line. It's problems like this that make people question light rail construction over heavy rail. He has a bad pereception of the Blue Line south of Willow (he loves it north of Willow).
We need to get something done with signal synchronization. Imagine, a 5 - 10 minute saving on the journey between DTLA and DTLB. Heck, even if the Blue Line ran the speed of Mariom Way in LB it's better than stop-and-go (shouldn't that be for cars, not trains?).
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 20, 2011 17:28:33 GMT -8
When the next segment of the Gold Line is completed (to the east side of Azusa), it will be following the route of the Santa Fe Super Chief and Fast Mail trains, which used to go racing through here at 65 mph. There are relatively few grade crossings, and they will most likely have state-of-the-art crossing gates when the electric train service starts. The only place where street running might become an issue will be in Phase 2-B, where the tracks could run in the street on the north side of the Metrolink station, and that will be a passenger stop.
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Post by Justin Walker on Feb 21, 2011 0:23:17 GMT -8
Running some quick calculations, we can break down the performance of the Blue Line by segment: Segment | Distance | Average Speed | 7th St/Metro Center to Pico (grade-separated) | 0.7 mi | 28.0 mph | Pico to Washington (LA street-running) | 2.4 mi | 18.0 mph | Washington to Willow (dedicated ROW) | 15.3 mi | 30.7 mph | Willow to Transit Mall (LB street-running) | 2.9 mi | 11.0 mph |
From this table, we can see that the Downtown subway and dedicated ROW portions of the line both perform nearly optimally. (Here, I assume optimal performance to be the Green Line's performance of 34.1 mph.) Even the LA street-running segment allows for rather quick trains. But something clearly should be done about the Long Beach street running segment, which only allows an average speed equal to 61% of that of the LA street-running segment.
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andop2
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by andop2 on Feb 21, 2011 10:06:45 GMT -8
I'm terrified of what we'll see with the Expo Line between Bergamont and 4th street station. Santa Monica should have gone underground past Lincoln. Santa Monica have hijacked the Expo Line into a streetcar. I live in Santa Monica and have timed the Colorado street route from 4th to 17th many times. Either direction, the average is less than 4 minutes, tops is 5 minutes, including stopping at Lincoln. There is very little traffic on this route, even west of Lincoln. Local car traffic will prefer the speedy (45 mph) Olympic Blvd or even Broadway. There is absolutely no comparison between Long Beach Boulevard and sleepy Colorado in Santa Monica. (By the way, between 17th and Bergamot everything is gated intersections or bridges, so there should be no problem there.)
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regen
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by regen on Feb 21, 2011 17:42:27 GMT -8
There is a sordid history of rivalry and non-cooperation between Metro and the City of Long Beach, which has been fading over the years and is almost gone. Nonetheless, City of Long Beach has not been willing until now to coordinate its signals with the Metro Blue Line.
Probably the most fruitful angle would be to talk with the City of Long Beach's transportation planners about applying for a grant from Metro's Call for Projects to time the signals on Long Beach Blvd. for bicycles, and as an amenity tie the Metro Blue Line into it. LBC is hip on bikes, so that's what I'd recommend.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 21, 2011 18:47:10 GMT -8
I checked in a book on Pacific Electric; nothing directly comparable, but it looks like PE did the run in 48 to 55 minutes. This was on jointed rail, which probably was not in the best of shape. Also consider that the cars used in later years were hand-me-downs from the Bay Area, and most of them had been built before World War I.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Feb 21, 2011 20:59:28 GMT -8
The original Gold Line's running time between SMV to LAUS was 36 minutes. About 5 years ago, Metro tinkered with express service which reduced 5 minutes from the journey, then optimized the whole line to run local between the two stations to 28 minutes today (and eventually eliminated express service in the process). I have been able to scour the Internet and found a 1997 PDF timetable for the Metro Blue Line, and from 7th/Metro to LBTM, it has been unchanged with 53 minutes for the whole trip, and 16 minutes for the infamous Long Beach Boulevard street running segment between Willow and LBTM. Although I heard in the past decade the Blue Line improved running times, the timetables don't reflect it. I can't imagine if Long Beach would try to program the lights for the Orange Line busway here in the Valley; those buses would take 90 minutes to go from NoHo to Warner Center!
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 23, 2011 14:09:41 GMT -8
"Probably the most fruitful angle would be to talk with the City of Long Beach's transportation planners about applying for a grant from Metro's Call for Projects to time the signals on Long Beach Blvd. for bicycles, and as an amenity tie the Metro Blue Line into it. LBC is hip on bikes, so that's what I'd recommend."
Bikes would prefer a speed of about 12 to 15 mph, but the trains only come every 10 minutes each direction at most (at rush hour half of trains stop at Willow), so the lights could be timed for bikes for a couple of cycles, and then for the trains the next cycle.
That's actually a great idea.
I am already going to submit a comment on the new draft bike plan, suggesting that Long Beach Blvd be turned into a priority routes for bikes and transit, with bus and bike lanes, and lower speed limits for cars (with an exemption to allow buses and trains to go 35 mph). I will suggest that Long Beach also coordinate with Metro.
I believe signal priority on this section would save 5 minutes, if the trains can maintain 35 mph between stations; this improvement would save 1 train per hour, or about $200 per hour all day long (if I am understanding the cost of light rail operations correctly). That would save about $1 million per year, which would quickly pay for the cost of the improvements, and could also pay to run all rush hour trains to the LB Transit Mall, greatly improving rush-hour service to downtown Long Beach.
It would also be fast enough for me to consider taking the train between Downtown and Willow, instead of just riding my bike that whole distance (which is usually faster)
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