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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 10, 2010 20:00:35 GMT -8
Nice sentiment, but it won't be finished 2014 or even 2015. There will be no construction and practically no utility relocation in fiscal year 2011 so my guess is that we won't see major construction until late 2011 or early 2012. Metro is already listing the estimated completion date as 2016 instead of 2015 like they used to. Would this change if the 30/10 initiative was approved? Yeah, what Bart said. The Source had a link to an agenda that will be used for a couple of upcoming Metro meetings that gave a timeline for projects if 30/10 gets approved. It showed Expo being completed in 2016 and while it shows other projects being completed within 9 years, it has a disclaimer that the schedule may be overly optimistic.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 10, 2010 20:03:55 GMT -8
I saw 2012 at the movie theater at LA Live. It was action packed but the action was too over the top for my tastes. Is that the part where the subway train comes flying out the tunnel and then through the air? That gives you an idea of what I mean.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 10, 2010 20:18:32 GMT -8
I saw 2012 at the movie theater at LA Live. It was action packed but the action was too over the top for my tastes. Is that the part where the subway train comes flying out the tunnel and then through the air? That gives you an idea of what I mean. Well, in the movie theater, you get so much loud sound effects, which may end up overwhelming you in such action movies. But on TV it was just about the right amount of special effects and it didn't bore me. (I also get bothered by too much special effects, especially loud ones.) There was quite a bit outrageous action indeed. But, after all, the entire world comes to an end as it is and a new world begins.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Apr 10, 2010 21:40:11 GMT -8
I watched it at the LA Live theater, too! That place is amazing!
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 11, 2010 7:44:23 GMT -8
Is the Washington crossing done this weekend?
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Post by Justin Walker on Apr 11, 2010 12:48:36 GMT -8
Is the Washington crossing done this weekend? I dropped by at noon yesterday and saw no crews.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 11, 2010 15:38:28 GMT -8
The Source had announced that there would be no weekend work on the blue line this weekend. I took advantage of that to railfan a bit this morning.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 11, 2010 17:35:14 GMT -8
Even with its delays the relevant part of Phase 1 construction will have basically taken about two years (fall 2008 to fall 2010). So if Phase 2 right-of-way clearing begins in early 2011 and construction begins later in 2011 it could be pretty complete by the end of 2013. Phase 2 completed in 2016 is the worst case, I think. As Darrell pointed out, this project will be far simpler to engineer and build than Phase 1 was. The interesting project deliverables for Phase 2 will be the above-grade sections - in particular, those crossing big boulevards (Venice and Pico/Gateway) and those with stations (Palms/National, possibly Sepulveda, and Bundy). They will also need to widen the 10 freeway underpass/tunnel, and build the maintenance yard in Santa Monica. Everything else is vanilla. That includes the section through Rancho Park. My guess is mid-2014 for revenue service, assuming no funding delays. That's four years from now.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 11, 2010 20:34:33 GMT -8
Even with its delays the relevant part of Phase 1 construction will have basically taken about two years (fall 2008 to fall 2010). So if Phase 2 right-of-way clearing begins in early 2011 and construction begins later in 2011 it could be pretty complete by the end of 2013. Phase 2 completed in 2016 is the worst case, I think. As Darrell pointed out, this project will be far simpler to engineer and build than Phase 1 was. The interesting project deliverables for Phase 2 will be the above-grade sections - in particular, those crossing big boulevards (Venice and Pico/Gateway) and those with stations (Palms/National, possibly Sepulveda, and Bundy). They will also need to widen the 10 freeway underpass/tunnel, and build the maintenance yard in Santa Monica. Everything else is vanilla. That includes the section through Rancho Park. My guess is mid-2014 for revenue service, assuming no funding delays. That's four years from now. No widening of Palms Overhead (the 25.0-ft-wide reinforced-concrete box structure, backfilled on the sides and above, under the Santa Monica Freeway) has been planned so far. While the USC trench is 29.9-ft-wide, this tunnel is expected to be sufficient with no structural modifications, perhaps except for the modifications of the portals. Before we predict Phase 2, let's give the chronology of Phase 1. The notice to proceed for Phase 1 was issued in Spring 2006. The original completion date was mid 2010. So, that was about four years. But it's currently 58 weeks behind schedule. Assuming the lawsuit fails, the notice to proceed for Phase 2 will be issued early 2011. Adding about four years to that would take us to late 2014 or early 2015. So, late 2014 seems a possibility. Of course, if the contractor turns out to be very good, it might be earlier in 2014. But then there will always be a bottleneck. It could be overhead wires as in Phase 1, or petroleum pipes, or Colorado utilities, or the maintenance facility, or even CPUC issues, or any unexpected problem, and these could throw the schedule off as in Phase 1.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 11, 2010 20:57:56 GMT -8
Well Metro shows a completion date of 2016 and I think that is the actual, not fiscal year. If it finishes earlier than that, great, but projects don't often finish earlier when an earlier finish isn't even a goal. I think that at least part of it could be that Measure R money is less than expected and is already being diverted towards other uses (operations).
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 11, 2010 21:01:23 GMT -8
Well Metro shows a completion date of 2016 and I think that is the actual, not fiscal year. If it finishes earlier than that, great, but projects don't often finish earlier when an earlier finish isn't even a goal. I think that at least part of it could be that Measure R money is less than expected and is already being diverted towards other uses (operations). Do you have the reference for it? Currently it's unknown how much Measure R money will be needed for Expo. It will only be known when Expo receives the bids from the two teams this November and negotiates the contract. Remember, most of the Phase 2 money will still be coming from the state funds, especially if the bids are low.
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Post by jeisenbe on Apr 11, 2010 21:12:27 GMT -8
Expo will reduce Long Beach to Santa Monica trip times from 2 hour 10 minutes (assuming the 720 is on schedule - not likely) to 1 hour 30 minutes (Assuming a 40 minute trip from Pico station to Santa Monica), and the trip will be much more reliable without the bus connection. According to Google, the trip currently takes 1 hour 30 minutes by car during rush hour traffic, not including time to look for parking and walk to you destination. 2016 is a long time to wait. Please Expo, stimulate the economy and hire more construction workers. Lets get this thing done ASAP.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 12, 2010 3:11:40 GMT -8
Expo will reduce Long Beach to Santa Monica trip times from 2 hour 10 minutes (assuming the 720 is on schedule - not likely) to 1 hour 30 minutes (Assuming a 40 minute trip from Pico station to Santa Monica), and the trip will be much more reliable without the bus connection. According to Google, the trip currently takes 1 hour 30 minutes by car during rush hour traffic, not including time to look for parking and walk to you destination. 2016 is a long time to wait. Please Expo, stimulate the economy and hire more construction workers. Lets get this thing done ASAP. No kidding. That's my commute. And the worst thing is, 1-1/2 hours each way isn't even reliable - sometimes it takes even longer. I'd kill for this thing to be open now. From my home and work (within walking distance of each) would be a reliable 1:10 trip.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Apr 12, 2010 7:03:05 GMT -8
Hopefully an SM-LB commute will be even faster if the 405 and Harbor Subdivision corridors are connected.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 12, 2010 10:06:46 GMT -8
No widening of Palms Overhead (the 25.0-ft-wide reinforced-concrete box structure, backfilled on the sides and above, under the Santa Monica Freeway) has been planned so far. While the USC trench is 29.9-ft-wide, this tunnel is expected to be sufficient with no structural modifications, perhaps except for the modifications of the portals. I stand corrected. From the FEIR alternatives document, page 2-16: The alignment would then cross under the I-10 Freeway through the existing box structure. The width and height of the box structure is adequate to accommodate a two-track alignment. Only minor modification of the box should be needed to accommodate the LRT infrastructure. New wing walls would be constructed and tied into the existing box. Even better. The point is, Phase 2 is in many ways a far simpler project than Phase 1. There are no service-disrupting junctions to create, no freeway overpass rebuilds, no trench underpasses (as in Figueroa) and no water crossings. One possible source of delays is the elevated structures. The number and total length of elevated structures in Phase 2 is greater than for Phase 1. And in Phase 1 the elevated structures were a major cause of delays. Let's hope Expo and their contractors do a better job this time keeping the project on schedule.
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Post by transitfan on Apr 12, 2010 10:36:19 GMT -8
Expo will reduce Long Beach to Santa Monica trip times from 2 hour 10 minutes (assuming the 720 is on schedule - not likely) to 1 hour 30 minutes (Assuming a 40 minute trip from Pico station to Santa Monica), and the trip will be much more reliable without the bus connection. According to Google, the trip currently takes 1 hour 30 minutes by car during rush hour traffic, not including time to look for parking and walk to you destination. I wonder how long the old 873 bus line (which connected downtown Santa Monica and downtown Long Beach via Marina Del Rey, LAX and the beach cities) took end to end. I never rode the entire route, one time I rode from Venice & Lincoln to downtown Long Beach, the one time I boarded in Santa Monica, I only rode to Sepulveda/Manhattan Beach Blvd, where I connected with the old 861 line to get to Del Amo mall (this was in January 1977) (!) Of course, south of LAX, the 873 survives as the 232.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 12, 2010 10:52:01 GMT -8
No widening of Palms Overhead (the 25.0-ft-wide reinforced-concrete box structure, backfilled on the sides and above, under the Santa Monica Freeway) has been planned so far. While the USC trench is 29.9-ft-wide, this tunnel is expected to be sufficient with no structural modifications, perhaps except for the modifications of the portals. I stand corrected. From the FEIR alternatives document, page 2-16: The alignment would then cross under the I-10 Freeway through the existing box structure. The width and height of the box structure is adequate to accommodate a two-track alignment. Only minor modification of the box should be needed to accommodate the LRT infrastructure. New wing walls would be constructed and tied into the existing box. Even better. The point is, Phase 2 is in many ways a far simpler project than Phase 1. There are no service-disrupting junctions to create, no freeway overpass rebuilds, no trench underpasses (as in Figueroa) and no water crossings. One possible source of delays is the elevated structures. The number and total length of elevated structures in Phase 2 is greater than for Phase 1. And in Phase 1 the elevated structures were a major cause of delays. Let's hope Expo and their contractors do a better job this time keeping the project on schedule. Here are two sheets from the original plans of the mysterious Palms Overhead for your enjoyment. Only I seem to have this stuff. Even the Expo Authority got it from me. LOL Click on the images for high resolution and then make sure to magnify the image to actual pixels in your browser window:
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Post by JerardWright on Apr 12, 2010 11:29:52 GMT -8
[ And in Phase 1 the elevated structures were a major cause of delays. Let's hope Expo and their contractors do a better job this time keeping the project on schedule. They were only a cause of delays because DWP didn't get their utilities done at the times they were supposed to and unfortuntely it impacted the critical path on the schedule right from the start.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Apr 12, 2010 12:43:35 GMT -8
That's very interesting and I'm sure they were ecstatic that you had them. (How did they know you had them BTW?) And, I give, what was the "Palms Overhead" project. Is it the name of the tunnel or something larger? By the way, someone was living in that tunnel the last I checked. I wonder who gets the job of evicting them? AK
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 12, 2010 14:13:56 GMT -8
[ And in Phase 1 the elevated structures were a major cause of delays. Let's hope Expo and their contractors do a better job this time keeping the project on schedule. They were only a cause of delays because DWP didn't get their utilities done at the times they were supposed to and unfortuntely it impacted the critical path on the schedule right from the start. Well, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the history repeats itself. People rarely learn from past mistakes. The overhead wires at Venice/Robertson for example are extensive.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 12, 2010 14:39:03 GMT -8
That's very interesting and I'm sure they were ecstatic that you had them. (How did they know you had them BTW?) And, I give, what was the "Palms Overhead" project. Is it the name of the tunnel or something larger? By the way, someone was living in that tunnel the last I checked. I wonder who gets the job of evicting them? AK I found the plans in LA's online engineering vault. You can search for various plans of the freeway bridges etc. there. But they were so illegible that I requested them to rescan the microfilm. After the rescan the sheets of the plan came out alright. As Friends 4 Expo, especially Darrell and I who are into the technical aspects and have the knowledge, we have always been in close contact with the Expo Authority regarding the design. After I found the plans and had them rescanned, I e-mailed the link to AECOM (consultant that did the EIR) and Expo. The name Palms Overhead is the name of the reinforced-concrete box structure and when you are driving, as for any other bridge structure, you can see the signs at both ends of the tunnel posted on the Santa Monica Freeway, saying "Palms Overhead -- Bridge xx-xxxx." It has Palms in the name because it's located in the northern section of Palms, which has now been replaced by the freeway. Overhead means ceiling I guess and it must be a name chosen by the engineers who built the tunnel for the Pacific Electric tracks because it's an overhead (ceiling) over the tracks in Palms. Here is the map of the area from 1939, created by WPA. Note that the section near the freeway was slightly realigned (as you can also see in the microfilm plans above) and a new bridge over Motor, to the south of the bridge then, was built in 1963. The old bridge was just to the north of the freeway today, as opposed to the new bridge, which is just to the south. In addition to the homeless, the tunnel has been popular among graffiti artists, who like to call the area the Motor Avenue Yard. Certainly they will need to find a new place once the light-rail is built. There won't be any squeeze space in the 25-ft-wide tunnel when two trains enter it simultaneously and any person caught in the tunnel would become toast.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 12, 2010 15:47:10 GMT -8
There won't be any squeeze space in the 25-ft-wide tunnel when two trains enter it simultaneously and any person caught in the tunnel would become toast. If any Dorsey High students wander into that tunnel and get squished, I'm sure Fix Expo will sue Metro for negligence. LOL
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Post by darrell on Apr 12, 2010 17:33:39 GMT -8
I drove along Expo yesterday. There was not a whole a lot of change. Falsework at La Cienega, including a vertical support in the median and I beams that go from one side of La Cienega to the other side in the centerline of the bridge, is still not removed but it turns out that it's supporting the station platform, which is apparently not finished yet. Still four columns are missing for the Culver City aerial but their cages have been in for a long time. The abutment is having its vertical rebars done. There is still no sign of Balfour Beatty working on the superstructure. Let's hope Phase 2 gets built much faster than Phase 1, which has had a somewhat glacier construction pace, so that we could see the line open to Santa Monica by 2014. Here is some construction news from this afternoon.... Another embedded track section on Flower south of Adams was being finished. There may finally be continuous rail all the way from Adams to Buckingham. Here's nearly-finished Flower Street at Exposition Blvd., with the left turn lane above the underpass. The canopies were shining colorfully in the sun (this one is at Western). Some OCS poles are up between Arlington and Crenshaw. The main falsework over La Brea is down! Here's a detail of the La Brea station platform nearing completion. Gokhan was right, they've now spread ballast over the concrete slab at the top of the La Brea eastern MSE wall. And the western section of the Ballona Creek bridge is nearing the concrete pour for its deck (already done for the eastern section).
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 12, 2010 20:00:00 GMT -8
Not sure whether it's the Sheriff's Dept. or LAPD that will be clearing the "residentially challenged" out of the railway tunnel. I would guess that sufficient force will be used to discourage further habitation, and then the place will be steam-cleaned. The squatters will probably be told, "You can leave peacefully, or leave under force, but you WILL GO and STAY GONE!
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 12, 2010 21:03:33 GMT -8
Not sure whether it's the Sheriff's Dept. or LAPD that will be clearing the "residentially challenged" out of the railway tunnel. I would guess that sufficient force will be used to discourage further habitation, and then the place will be steam-cleaned. The squatters will probably be told, "You can leave peacefully, or leave under force, but you WILL GO and STAY GONE! No force will be needed. Once the area is fenced, no one will be able to live there, just like all the transients living on the Expo Phase 1 right-of-way have moved away. But I'm a little worried about the kitties.
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Post by jeisenbe on Apr 12, 2010 21:07:45 GMT -8
jdrcrasher said "Hopefully an SM-LB commute will be even faster if the 405 and Harbor Subdivision corridors are connected."
Not necessarily
Long Beach to Santa Monica on Blue Line to Expo Line via Pico station is approximately 36 miles. As stated above, it should take about 1 hour 30 minutes based on current estimates. If the Blue Line is given signal priority in Long Beach, or if transfers are timed at Pico station, 5 minutes or more could be saved.
The most direct surface route from Long Beach to Santa Monica is along Highway 1, at just over 30 miles. (405 if a half mile longer) Depending on the speed of the line, it could take just as long as Blue to Expo. If built grade-separated with distantly spaced stations, you might do LB to SM in 1 hour minutes. More realistically, a 405 line would save as many miles but require two transfers (blue to "405" to expo or Green line down Lincol), and take 1 hour 15 minutes even with 30 mph average speed (as good as the Red Line)
The only thing that would save more than 25 minutes would be a high speed rail line from Long Beach. If LB to LA Union station took 20 minutes (110 mph max with 3 intermediate stops), and the Purple Line were extended to the sea, you could get from beach to beach in 55.
Or a high speed line along 405 might get total trips down to 30 to 40 minutes, after transfers from Blue to high speed (125 mph) to Expo or Purple
Anyway, I will be happy with 1 hour 30 minute trip times for now, and work to get signal priority for trains along Long Beach Blvd, which will save 5 minutes, or 2 billion dollars worth of other improvements.
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Post by rajacobs on Apr 13, 2010 1:17:22 GMT -8
I'm sure that the kitties will find their way to the Vista del Mar area where, on the street behind the facility, adjacent to the Santa Monica Freeway, saucers of food are set out!
By the way, the old maps and plan for the tunnel are extraordinary; what a find.
On a different topic, I've been noticing that the soil along the Phase II ROW East of Palms & West of Bagley is being dug out ...looks like some has been carted off and some of it's been rearranged. Can't quite figure out what their doing.
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Post by wad on Apr 13, 2010 4:20:03 GMT -8
Hopefully an SM-LB commute will be even faster if the 405 and Harbor Subdivision corridors are connected. The quickest trip would be for Metro to run a blue bus from Long Beach to somewhere in the Westside. The trouble with a South Bay-to-Long Beach rail line is that there would be a huge dead zone between the 110 and 710 freeways because of the refineries and industrial uses. Ridership would be too light to sustain a rail service.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Apr 13, 2010 7:14:24 GMT -8
The quickest trip would be for Metro to run a blue bus from Long Beach to somewhere in the Westside. The trouble with a South Bay-to-Long Beach rail line is that there would be a huge dead zone between the 110 and 710 freeways because of the refineries and industrial uses. Ridership would be too light to sustain a rail service. That's only between Wilmington Ave and Sante Fe Ave. That spot alone doesn't kill this line. Besides, we're preparing for the future, not today.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 13, 2010 7:45:26 GMT -8
As for the Long Beach to Santa Monica commute: I don't see why they can't just create a Commuter Express (or freeway express, whatever) limited stop bus that travels the 405. All I can imagine is that someone at Metro thinks this would have low ridership. Maybe that's the case. But I sure would prefer it to the current Blue-Green-CC Rapid 6 gauntlet I currently have to run.
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