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Post by metrocenter on Nov 17, 2010 12:35:10 GMT -8
BTW, all of this is Regional Connector talk and belongs in that forum. The only news was about the name, which will stay as "Expo Line". This will remain the name of the service for the next few years: future service patterns will dictate future names.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 17, 2010 12:40:49 GMT -8
Because, if you take a closer look, the map you posted explicitly says "Subject to Change."
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 17, 2010 13:09:14 GMT -8
Back to Expo: It (Exposition/Rodeo, aka Gramercy) could be gated reasonable easily, between the street islands. Interestingly both entrances to the crossing are on the north side; the other is the facing car on the right. Nevertheless, unfortunately, it's not being gated at the moment. There would have to be a study and CPUC approval for it to be gated in the future. This is actually a huge milestone, showing that the La Brea Aerial ductbank work has been completed. I wonder what the situation for the La Cienega Aerial ductbank work is. The remaining ductbank work would be for the Culver City Aerial. It was supposed to be the day before.
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Post by masonite on Nov 17, 2010 17:52:27 GMT -8
Based on antidote evidence and observation, I think this is the optimum setup: Your setup would have two services to Azusa but only one service to Long Beach. For load-balancing, it ought to be the other way around. The Long Beach branch (current Blue Line) serves over 80,000 riders per day. My solution (which I've posted before on the Regional Connector forum) is as follows: - Gold Line: Santa Monica - East L.A., 6 min headways.
- Blue Line: Long Beach - Pasadena, 6 min headways.
- Foothill Line: Pasadena - Azusa/Montclair/Ontario, 10 min headways.
The Blue Line and Foothill Line would overlap in Old Town Pasadena. I would agree with this plan, although I might wonder whether they will have a turnaround on the Eastside on the 1st station after the connector, because I don't think the Eastside can match Expo's ridership or come close. Even though I may be in the minority, I have to say I like Metro's plan to just have a basic East-West line (Gold) and a North-South line (Blue). I say this as someone who would probably use a SM to Pasadena route more than anything else. Mixing up the combinations sounds good on paper, but it would create quite a bit of confusion among riders who use the system infrequently. The current Purple/Red Line situation creates a lot of problems for people.
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 17, 2010 18:42:45 GMT -8
I dont see anything strange that that at all, what is uncommon about it? Are we building a European tram that goes 15/20 mph next to pedestrians or high speed transit to get people from downtown LA to Culver City as fast as possible? I was hoping the latter.... There is nothing dangerous about crossing tracks outside of an intersection. Same deal with cars. There are midblock crossing on roads with 30, 40 and even 50 mph speeds. All you need is a painted line on the ground to show the edge of the train.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 17, 2010 18:58:30 GMT -8
There is nothing dangerous about crossing tracks outside of an intersection. Same deal with cars. There are midblock crossing on roads with 30, 40 and even 50 mph speeds. All you need is a painted line on the ground to show the edge of the train. I'm not questioning safety..however, safety will affect speed. I would rather have the train accelerate through an intersection and not be stuck waiting for pedestrians to cross. With such a heavy pedestrian crossing...the train should have been west of Trousdale. I care more about speed....like the # 1 question on everybody's mind when thinking about Expo (how fast will it be?)
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Nov 18, 2010 1:25:54 GMT -8
Here's a little video update of construction on 11/17
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Post by rajacobs on Nov 18, 2010 7:12:58 GMT -8
First, nice update. ...It really records how much equipment was on the tracks and work was underway on the 17th! It seemed as if one of the stations was receiving "roofing material," hoisted from a flatbed truck parked next to the station. Second, what kind of a camera were you using and where did you have it mounted?
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Nov 18, 2010 11:30:17 GMT -8
This a tapeless HD camera in a new car mount I was testing - it was mounted on the roof of the car I was driving which is why you can kind of see people reacting to it.
I was testing it nearby in Hollywood and figured I could get some use out of it for all of us here. I like that you can't see the car!
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Post by darrell on Nov 18, 2010 12:16:10 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 12:25:37 GMT -8
There is nothing dangerous about crossing tracks outside of an intersection. Same deal with cars. There are midblock crossing on roads with 30, 40 and even 50 mph speeds. All you need is a painted line on the ground to show the edge of the train. I'm not questioning safety..however, safety will affect speed. I would rather have the train accelerate through an intersection and not be stuck waiting for pedestrians to cross. With such a heavy pedestrian crossing...the train should have been west of Trousdale. I care more about speed....like the # 1 question on everybody's mind when thinking about Expo (how fast will it be?) You're obviously not familiar with USC. Trousdale crossing has extremely light pedestrian traffic, far lighter than most other crossings along the alignment. On top of that, there is no vehicular traffic allowed at the crossing. Trousdale is a ghost crossing.Obviously the six Saturdays in a year where there is a USC game are exceptions but who cares. The raves and such you mentioned also take place during the weekends and the pedestrian traffic is spread out through the day in these cases. An at-grade crossing at Trousdale is absolutely fine. Besides and underground station would significantly hurt the USC ridership because of (a) out of sight = out of mind and (b) security concerns of using a subway station in a notorious area by the students. Last but not least, the option you mentioned -- extending the trench west of Trousdale -- did preclude an Expo Park/USC Station.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 12:35:16 GMT -8
Here's a little video update of construction on 11/17 Thanks for the video. I think you made the point about the actual cause of why it's been taking so long to build this line.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 12:48:15 GMT -8
Eric Olson gave a short status update to this morning's Metro Construction Committee meeting. Here are his slides (which he mostly just read): It's very good to know that they've learned their lessons and they are emphasizing it in written form. These are the points I've been emphasizing all along. One thing they didn't list is the number of workers employed. As Alex pointed out in his new video, this is the biggest reason behind the delays. While the contractor ultimately decides on this, Expo needs to put the pressure on them. He is simply not well-informed about Expo and not really appreciating the measures taken for Phase 2.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 12:58:45 GMT -8
I drove along Expo today.
They are currently working on the Venice/Robertson Station platform. Apparently there will be a walkway all the way to the Wesley St ramp. I expect that this work will take a few more months. Then they will have to do the trackwork, which shouldn't take long, the ductbank work, which will take several months, and the station amenities (plaza etc.), which will be the most time-consuming part.
In most places along the alignment, fences are now finished. The line is slowly starting to look like its final form. Landscaping is still missing.
They are working on the plaza for the La Cienega Station now, which is in its initial stages. La Brea Station work seems to be behind the La Cienega Station work.
They are doing more crossing improvements at Farmdale and some track work there as well.
At some crossings such as Arlington and Gramercy, the striping took its final form, with writings on the pavement etc. Although, they used such a bad font at Arlington that I couldn't read what it said from Exposition. It probably said KEEP CLEAR or something.
There was a problem with some section of the tracks near USC Watt Way and they had cut the concrete and were doing repairs.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 18, 2010 13:09:26 GMT -8
Besides and underground station would significantly hurt the USC ridership because of (a) out of sight = out of mind and (b) security concerns of using a subway station in a notorious area by the students. I respect all your other points Gokhan and your ability to defend the Expo Line well. However, I think this "whole out of sight, out of mind" arguement makes absolutely no sense. Again, using your logic of "out of sight, out of mind" would undermine why stations that are "out of sight, out of mind" like Hollywood/Highland, 7th street/Metro Center, are significantly successful in LA. And in terms of a place with "income equity/ danger" area....looks to me that the station at MacArthur Park does very well!!! And I would add that Vermont/Beverly may be somewhat equal to the income disparity / "dangerous" as the USC area....... So, let's not use "out of sight, out of mind" as an arguement.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 13:27:53 GMT -8
Besides and underground station would significantly hurt the USC ridership because of (a) out of sight = out of mind and (b) security concerns of using a subway station in a notorious area by the students. I respect all your other points Gokhan and your ability to defend the Expo Line well. However, I think this "whole out of sight, out of mind" arguement makes absolutely no sense. Again, using your logic of "out of sight, out of mind" would undermine why stations that are "out of sight, out of mind" like Hollywood/Highland, 7th street/Metro Center, are significantly successful in LA. And in terms of a place with "income equity/ danger" area....looks to me that the station at MacArthur Park does very well!!! And I would add that Vermont/Beverly may be somewhat equal to the income disparity / "dangerous" as the USC area....... So, let's not use "out of sight, out of mind" as an arguement. I think an at-grade station will attract much more riders at USC. The blending of light-rail with its surroundings is a very valid argument. I wouldn't ask for an at-grade station at 7th/Flower but this is different here. Besides, again, it was impossible to build a subway station at USC; therefore, this is a moot point. Crime statistics are a fact at USC. We receive them weekly. It's no joking matter when someone points a gun at a student and asks for his/her belongings, which happens very often around here. The problem is not that the area is underprivileged but the people who prey in the area, who mostly come from other areas.
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Post by darrell on Nov 18, 2010 13:37:03 GMT -8
One thing they didn't list is the number of workers employed. There was one other slide of the usual minority hiring percentages that I didn't photograph, presuming it to be similar to the last Expo Board presentation.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 18, 2010 14:21:59 GMT -8
I think an at-grade station will attract much more riders at USC. The blending of light-rail with its surroundings is a very valid argument. I wouldn't ask for an at-grade station at 7th/Flower but this is different here. Besides, again, it was impossible to build a subway station at USC; therefore, this is a moot point. Crime statistics are a fact at USC. We receive them weekly. It's no joking matter when someone points a gun at a student and asks for his/her belongings, which happens very often around here. The problem is not that the area is underprivileged but the people who prey in the area, who mostly come from other areas. - May Day at MacArthur Park (2008) - Shooting of illegal immigrant in Westlake (September 2010) I'm pretty sure MacArthur Park/Westlake would be considered more dangerous....and yet, people still ride the subway...... Safety is not an issue. It's all about convenience. If you provide a convenient product, people will use it. If safety was THE issue..then ridership at MacArthur Park, Blue Line between Washington to PCH, Green Line between Long Beach station and Aviation station would be little to none. Stations along the Red, Purple and some Gold, Blue, and Expo Line stations are very convenient and will attract ridership (even "danger" stations like USC/Expo Park). Nothing about safety.......again, convenience.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 18, 2010 14:54:00 GMT -8
Convenience: An at-grade light-rail station is the most convenient. Security: An at-grade light-rail station is the most secure because of visibility from the streets.
Therefore, the Trousdale Station is a win - win situation.
Again, I stated many times that it was impossible to build a subway station at Trousdale; so, I am not sure why we are discussing this moot point.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 18, 2010 16:27:16 GMT -8
In this case, I agree with Gokhan.
Yes the area around Westlake/MacArthur Park station has lots of crime. But the station itself is very busy at most hours. Also, it is large and deep enough to make it difficult to escape during the commission of a crime.
If the station at Trousdale were underground it would often be empty. Also, there is no room for the station unless it were very small and shallow. And the station area has a history of thievery. All things considered, putting the station underground would make it an ideal location for robbing students.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 18, 2010 16:49:01 GMT -8
In this case, I agree with Gokhan. Yes the area around Westlake/MacArthur Park station has lots of crime. But the station itself is very busy at most hours. Also, it is large and deep enough to make it difficult to escape during the commission of a crime. If the station at Trousdale were underground it would often be empty. Also, there is no room for the station unless it were very small and shallow. And the station area has a history of thievery. All things considered, putting the station underground would make it an ideal location for robbing students. Hahahahahaha....you guys do realize there are underground stations in worse areas than USC around the whole world and their not deserted, right? Stand at a station in East London, west Paris (near Moulin Rouge) or Eiffel Tower. USC station is nowhere near as dangerous as some of the world's subway stations.
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Post by bobdavis on Nov 18, 2010 19:55:22 GMT -8
The subway vs. street level question comes up with reference to San Francisco, where the Muni Metro runs beneath Market St. and the "F" line streetcar service runs (no surprise) on the street. According to assorted local observers, many people choose the admittedly slower streetcar because they factor in the time it takes to "go below" and then come up "on deck". Others just don't like being underground. Tourists have been quoted saying "we came here to see the city, not the walls of a tunnel". (Full disclosure: I'm a member of Market Street Railway, the support group for historic streetcar operation in The City)
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Post by trackman on Nov 18, 2010 20:49:43 GMT -8
I am glad urban rail systems are not designed for tourists. I prefer the everyday rider... the commuter. Those are ones that you can count on... 255 days a year, and twice a day.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 19, 2010 0:05:15 GMT -8
In this case, I agree with Gokhan. Yes the area around Westlake/MacArthur Park station has lots of crime. But the station itself is very busy at most hours. Also, it is large and deep enough to make it difficult to escape during the commission of a crime. If the station at Trousdale were underground it would often be empty. Also, there is no room for the station unless it were very small and shallow. And the station area has a history of thievery. All things considered, putting the station underground would make it an ideal location for robbing students. Hahahahahaha....you guys do realize there are underground stations in worse areas than USC around the whole world and their not deserted, right? Stand at a station in East London, west Paris (near Moulin Rouge) or Eiffel Tower. USC station is nowhere near as dangerous as some of the world's subway stations. You missed my point. I didn't say a station in a bad area is deserted. I said I'd rather not be in a station that is both in a bad neighborhood and deserted. In any case, I think this station will be just fine at-grade.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 19, 2010 18:01:48 GMT -8
Well, folks, apparently Metro is in the process of deciding when to open the line and to where and according to a couple of sources, one being the Expo's Facebook page, the initial opening will be to Crenshaw only around August or September:
"In Mid-2011, USC, Mid-City, and Crenshaw residents will be able to travel via Expo Line and spend their Friday nights at Regal Cinemas L.A. LIVE. You can save money on gas and parking costs!"
We will probably find out more at the Thursday, December 2, board meeting of the Expo Authority.
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adamv
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by adamv on Nov 19, 2010 18:07:12 GMT -8
Well, folks, apparently Metro is in the process of deciding when to open the line and to where and according to a couple of sources, one being the Expo's Facebook page, the initial opening will be to Crenshaw only around August or September: "In Mid-2011, USC, Mid-City, and Crenshaw residents will be able to travel via Expo Line and spend their Friday nights at Regal Cinemas L.A. LIVE. You can save money on gas and parking costs!" We will probably find out more at the Thursday, December 2, board meeting of the Expo Authority. Mid-City encompasses Fairfax/La Cienega, so that Facebook post doesn't say much.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 19, 2010 18:39:44 GMT -8
Well, folks, apparently Metro is in the process of deciding when to open the line and to where and according to a couple of sources, one being the Expo's Facebook page, the initial opening will be to Crenshaw only around August or September: "In Mid-2011, USC, Mid-City, and Crenshaw residents will be able to travel via Expo Line and spend their Friday nights at Regal Cinemas L.A. LIVE. You can save money on gas and parking costs!" We will probably find out more at the Thursday, December 2, board meeting of the Expo Authority. Mid-City encompasses Fairfax/La Cienega, so that Facebook post doesn't say much. Likely, although they placed Mid-City before Crenshaw. But we will soon find out more, as Metro is now working on this. Also, Farmdale will be approved by FTA apparently in a week or two.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 19, 2010 20:11:28 GMT -8
I have serious doubts that the Facebook page you are quoting Gokhan is maintained by Metro. I think it is a fan page of some sorts and really does not have legitimate information (any more than we do). Metro has not even confirmed they will open in 2011, the decision was deferred to December. Also, the Facebook page was showing picture of the La Brea bridge but called it Crenshaw.
I would take the Expo Line facebook as a grain of salt. The only facebook pages that appear legit are the Westsidesubwayextension and Metro Los Angeles.
Until we hear from The Source or a Metro board meeting, my assumption is that we are opening up to Venice/Robertson in December 2011.
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Post by Justin Walker on Nov 19, 2010 20:25:54 GMT -8
I have serious doubts that the Facebook page you are quoting Gokhan is maintained by Metro. I think it is a fan page of some sorts and really does not have legitimate information (any more than we do). Metro has not even confirmed they will open in 2011, the decision was deferred to December. Also, the Facebook page was showing picture of the La Brea bridge but called it Crenshaw. The "Expo Line Light Rail" Facebook page has all the markings of an official Expo Authority Facebook page. In particular, it has several pictures and pieces of information that members of the general public wouldn't have. The "Hello Expo" Facebook page, of course, is a fan page.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 19, 2010 22:33:18 GMT -8
The Build Expo Facebook page is an official page. I know the person who maintains it, who works for Expo. It might contribute inaccuracies as the focus of the page is to popularize the project rather than be the authoritative data source. Hello Expo page is a fan page, maintained by the Westside Expo fans. I've been the main founder and contributor but Karen Leonard and Sarah Hays of the Light-Rail for Cheviot and some others have done nice contributions (such as the Japanese Buddhist Temple feature) as well. my assumption is that we are opening up to Venice/Robertson in December 2011. Unfortunately, at this point, it seems virtually impossible that the Venice/Roberston Station could be completed in 2011. But the rest of the project, excluding the Farmdale Station will be completed circa May 2011, and we will see a Crenshaw or La Cienega opening, depending on the Farmdale Station construction logistics, circa September.
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