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Post by LAofAnaheim on Mar 15, 2007 20:59:50 GMT -8
I went to the final scoping meeting this evening. First time I encountered the Cheviot Hills crowd. They had a massive turnout. Most of them were for light rail, but for light rail on Venice & Sepulveda. Some believed light rail should travel all the way down Venice to the coast. Somebody told me Venice beach is the # 1 destination in socal, beating Disneyland (that can't be right).
I met some crazy people there. One person believed the true L.A. problem is illegal immigrants, that's why we have traffic (?). Some couldn't believe I came from downtown to Cheviot for the scoping meeting. I guess people don't believe that Expo Line has an effect on non-westsiders as well.
Generally, it seems Cheviot is mostly for light rail, w/ of course the diversion. I'd be interested to see the time difference by going the diversion compared to the ROW. My main concern is that we hit Santa Monica, not divert to Venice.
Anybody else go to a scoping meeting? I'm sure the crowds at the other meetings may not have been so hostile as the Del Mar crowd tonight.
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Post by masonite on Mar 15, 2007 22:37:17 GMT -8
It looks like the diversion may cost up to 10 minutes. Since it is almost 30 minutes just to the end of phase 1 of the line, the line with the diversion may be close to an hour ride from LA to SM, which is too slow. Most people would rather sit in traffic than deal with that long of a ride. I think the diversion is a terrible idea. It will cost money and critical time reducing the effectiveness of the line dramatically. Hopefully, the Chevioters don't get their way. I would be more understanding if they actually had a legit gripe, but I haven't seen one yet. Trains have been running on that route for over a 100 years.
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joequality
Junior Member
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 88
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Post by joequality on Mar 16, 2007 10:26:21 GMT -8
I also went to the one last night. Pretty much what I expected, although a lot of those anti-rail CH people were really rude. This one woman was being a total b!tch to me.
Some of us were looking at a map and she was complaining to her husband about how the Venice/Sepulveda is the only way to go. I then casually replied that the Expo ROW would be cheaper.
"You dont know that! No studies have been done!" she snapped at me.
"Well the Expo route is shorter and they already own it."
"Yeah they own it, but that doesn't matter b/c the alternative will just go down the median of Venice."
"But they dont own it, they would still have to buy it becau..."
"Its right down the middle! It wont cost anything!"
"No, because Metro doesnt own it. They would have to buy it."
"From who??!!" (by this time, really getting mad for no reason)
"The City of LA."
"So?!! Its the same thing!"
"Metro is a county organization so it would probab..."
"Oh that's not a big difference! blah blah"
By that time I walked away b/c clearly this woman wasnt listening to reason and I was starting to loose patience.
Other people were more reasonable, but some seemed to be in a frenzy. ("What about this school? Where are all the children supposed to go with the station right there?" "Sir, that wont change anything...")
I was surprised the representatives didnt know much about techical aspects, although I guess it makes sense since no official study had taken place.
All in all, it was a good experience. Plus it was really cool to see those maps detailing specific alignments.
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Post by Elson on Mar 16, 2007 10:41:46 GMT -8
I also went to the one last night. Pretty much what I expected, although a lot of those anti-rail CH people were really rude. This one woman was being a total b!tch to me. Her name didn't happen to be "Diane," would it?  Those NIMBYs are motherfreaking idiots. I mean, look at what's planned for their part of the ROW:  A STREAM BED?!?!? A jogging path??! No other ROW has anything like that. I'd kill to have something like that in my neighborhood. That's awesome!!! If they don't like it, then move out, I'll live there. |
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joequality
Junior Member
Bitte, ein Bit!
Posts: 88
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Post by joequality on Mar 16, 2007 12:39:57 GMT -8
hehe it probably was her!
Wow, that is nice. Those people dont even take the time to glance at what is in planning.
What are the odds of either route being chosen? Also, I'm guessing a Expo/Sepulveda station would be better than an Expo/Sawtelle station due to municpal bus lines.
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Post by Transit Coalition on Mar 16, 2007 15:58:30 GMT -8
LA Times Traffic BlogGetting ugly on Expo Line Tempers flared outside the Westside gym where neighbors gathered Thursday night to examine giant maps of proposed routes for extending the Expo Line from Culver City to Santa Monica. Darrell Clarke got the brunt of it. He is chairman of the Friends 4 Expo Transit, a decades-old advocacy group that has led the charge for building a light-rail line along the old Southern Pacific railroad tracks. For many Cheviot Hills homeowners opposed to the running a commuter train in their neighborhood, Clarke was the first person they saw. He had a card table set up at the gym entrance to answer their questions. As Clarke announced his affiliation, a short, gray-haired man shouted back: I’m with Friends Against Expo. And so it went. Inside the gym, a young mother, on the verge of tears, debated a man whose red t-shirt urged others to ride the subway. She was upset about her 5-year-old’s safety if the train someday runs near her home. It will be at least a year before transit officials choose a route. --Jean Guccione Make a comment!
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Post by Elson on Mar 16, 2007 16:18:03 GMT -8
LA Times Traffic BlogGetting ugly on Expo Line Inside the gym, a young mother, on the verge of tears, debated a man whose red t-shirt urged others to ride the subway. She was upset about her 5-year-old’s safety if the train someday runs near her home. It will be at least a year before transit officials choose a route. --Jean Guccione LOL, by the time the line gets finished, her son would be well old enough to cross the street on his own. and I dunno about her, but if I had a small kid, I'd actually BE A PARENT and teach my kids about safety, not wean them on X-Box all day. The Red Shirt Subway guy might also want to tell Crying Lady that in the 17 years the Blue Line has been in existence, there had been no incidents of children being killed or injured while playing nearby. |
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Post by kenalpern on Mar 17, 2007 5:43:05 GMT -8
Cheviot Hills residents differ on light rail
Homeowners group has blocked efforts to use an adjacent right of way, but some say the Expo Line would be a boon.
By Jeffrey L. Rabin and Jean Guccione, L.A. Times Staff Writers
March 17, 2007
For years, a homeowners association in Cheviot Hills has been able to derail plans to put modern-day streetcars on an old railroad line that skirts the upscale Westside neighborhood.
But now, those residents' long opposition to mass transit in their backyard is encountering resistance from neighbors fed up with worsening congestion that has slowed traffic to a crawl.
The debate arises as transportation planners are starting to examine the environmental effects of possible routes for the second phase of the Metro Expo Line. The first phase, now under construction, goes from downtown L.A. to Culver City. The second phase is supposed to go to Santa Monica. The most direct way there is using the former Southern Pacific right of way that borders Cheviot Hills — and that is causing controversy.
Some Westside residents spoke openly of the need to use that corridor at a meeting Thursday night in Cheviot Hills that attracted 325 people.
"It's the shortest, fastest route," said attorney Jonathan Weiss, a member of a newly formed group, Light Rail for Cheviot. "People are afraid for the schools. They are afraid of their property values."
The mere mention of running trains on tracks that carried streetcars to the beach half a century ago arouses intense opposition from the homeowners association.
The group is lobbying hard to make sure the tracks stay south of the Santa Monica Freeway. It wants the trains to travel along Venice and Sepulveda boulevards before returning to the Exposition right of way near the interchange of the Santa Monica and San Diego freeways.
The association's leaders argue that ridership would be higher if the rail line avoided their single-family neighborhood and followed a denser corridor lined with apartment buildings and strip malls.
"Do you think the people who live in Cheviot Hills are going to take this bloody train?" asked Benjamin Cate, a former association president. "No, they are going to get in their cars.
"The people who are going to use this are the people who work in the hotels in Santa Monica, and they are going to come from the Hispanic areas nearer downtown. Now they take the bus."
Emotions ran high outside the meeting, where advocates from both sides set up card tables to sign up new members.
Darrell Clarke, a founding member of the group Friends 4 Expo Transit, took the brunt of the criticism, although his group has not endorsed either route.
A few feet away, another group, Neighbors for Smart Transit, provided those attending the meeting with a "statement of concern." The group, established by a coalition of four Westside homeowners associations, including Cheviot Hills, listed nine reasons for opposing use of the existing right of way, including noise, danger to pedestrians, traffic jams at rail crossings, and loss of property values.
On a separate flier, the group offered more than two dozen questions to ask transit officials about ridership, population density, traffic impacts and costs associated with each of the proposed routes.
The group also recommended that the Exposition Metro Line Construction Authority, the agency established to build the rail project, consider a third route: along Venice Boulevard to Lincoln Boulevard in Venice rather than going to Santa Monica.
They also want planners to determine how much could be raised if the right of way across Westside neighborhoods were sold and the land developed with single-family homes. They suggest that the money raised could be used to pay for the alternate routes.
After the environmental impact study is completed next year, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority board will decide where the tracks will go.
Seven years ago, at the behest of the Cheviot Hills Homeowners Assn., the MTA board voted against using the publicly owned right of way. Instead, it chose to study only the Venice-Sepulveda route.
Cate was president of the association at the time. He said in 2000 that residents were concerned about safety, noise, pollution, and negative impacts on schools and traffic patterns.
Today, attorney Kevin Hughes, the current president of the homeowners association, is more diplomatic.
"We support mass transit. We support rail," he said. "It's just a matter of two things: which route makes the most sense for Phase Two, and building it right."
Peter Paterno, a prominent entertainment attorney, disagrees with his homeowners association. Its opposition to use of the right of way irked him so much, he said he felt compelled to weigh in at the public meeting.
In a letter to the construction authority, Paterno wrote, "In case nobody's noticed, traffic in West Los Angeles is horrible and getting worse. Why wouldn't we support a rail line that's convenient to our neighborhood and makes it easy to get downtown?
"Let's not let the bleating of a few benighted Luddites blow it for the rest of us," he said.
Melissa Kenady, who lives a block and a half from the old railroad tracks in Rancho Park, described herself as a "big supporter of public transit."
But she wants to see the light-rail line on Venice and Sepulveda boulevards.
"I think our community is a great neighborhood," Kenady said, "and those are few and far between in Los Angeles."
She said the Exposition right of way doesn't serve the population that needs mass transit.
Christopher and Michelle La Farg take the opposite side. They would love to hop on a train near their Rancho Park home to get to work in downtown Los Angeles.
"It seems to make the most sense because the right of way is there already," said Christopher La Farg, who works for the Los Angeles Housing Authority. "Why not just utilize that asset?"
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jeff.rabin@latimes.com
jean.guccione@latimes.com
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Post by whitmanlam on Mar 18, 2007 17:53:49 GMT -8
"Do you think the people who live in Cheviot Hills are going to take this bloody train?" asked Benjamin Cate, a former association president. "No, they are going to get in their cars. "The people who are going to use this are the people who work in the hotels in Santa Monica, and they are going to come from the Hispanic areas nearer downtown. Now they take the bus." Ouch ! Beware of the RAIL NAZI ! NIMBYs say the darnedest things... |
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Post by Elson on Mar 18, 2007 20:19:16 GMT -8
Ouch ! Beware of the RAIL NAZI ! NIMBYs say the darnedest things... I think Borat should have an interview with the Idiot Hills NIMBYs! |
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Post by wad on Mar 18, 2007 23:15:02 GMT -8
Keeping the train on the right of way is now a civil rights issue in light of Cate's comments.
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Post by erict on Mar 19, 2007 7:10:04 GMT -8
..it should be a civil rights issue - what a bigot! I could not belive it when I read his comment. Very sad.  |
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Adrian Auer-Hudson
Junior Member
Supporter of "Expo Light Rail - Enabler for the Digital Coast".
Posts: 65 
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Post by Adrian Auer-Hudson on Mar 19, 2007 10:32:07 GMT -8
Much as I find Cates' remarks distasteful in the extreme, I must admit to a feeling of gratitude. If the anti-Expo faction is this bigoted and stupid they are not much of a foe. Their own remarks are our best ammunition.
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Post by whitmanlam on Mar 19, 2007 15:50:36 GMT -8
Stupid or not, it is their home turf and we need to respect that. Besides, it is much better to build Pro-Expo support within Cheviot Hills, rather than just impose our will as outsiders.
It is a close knit community, kinda... like Fidel Castro's Cuba.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 19, 2007 16:13:45 GMT -8
there had been no incidents of children being killed or injured while playing nearby.
There was a kid killed in Watts just a couple of months ago when he accidentally rode his scooter in front of the train. IIRC he was about 11.
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Post by whitmanlam on Mar 19, 2007 16:27:24 GMT -8
It happened at an at-grade crossing, just like the crossings proposed if a Venice / Sepulveda Route is chosen.
The Expo right-of-way through Cheviot Hills would be much safer. The at-grade portions from Vermont Ave to La Cienega, will really worry me.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Mar 19, 2007 17:17:06 GMT -8
It is a close knit community, kinda... like Fidel Castro's Cuba. Awesome quote! |
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Adrian Auer-Hudson
Junior Member
Supporter of "Expo Light Rail - Enabler for the Digital Coast".
Posts: 65
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Post by Adrian Auer-Hudson on Mar 20, 2007 7:55:58 GMT -8
"Stupid or not, it is their home turf and we need to respect that"
Indeed, but, it is also the home turf of the pro Expo faction. We need to nurture, encourage and support them.
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Post by Elson on Mar 20, 2007 12:17:34 GMT -8
"Stupid or not, it is their home turf and we need to respect that" Indeed, but, it is also the home turf of the pro Expo faction. We need to nurture, encourage and support them. "Respect is meaningless if not mutual." |
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Post by nicksantangelo on Mar 20, 2007 18:12:44 GMT -8
Greetings. I too attended the Scoping gig and found an awful lot of confused people. That is typical- the same thing happened with our Gold Line meetings way back when (I live in NELA, five houses from a Gold Line Station).
I think the decades-long loss of transit on the Westside has produced alot of paranoia. And isolation certainly goes hand in hand with fear of the unknown. Perhaps the goal of some is to discourage 'outsiders' from visiting or passing through. The drive I took from downtown was horrendous and if I had not planned to meet some Expo supporters I very well might have stayed home!
The comments by Mr. Cates were laughable: he certainly wasn't talking about me. Not to sound condescending but he really needs to get out more often. This is a big city with lots of diverse workers/commuters/homo sapiens who actually use public transit. I would love to hop a train West just for kicks, grab a sandwich at Junior's, or see a movie at the Westside Pavilion. I think the congestion has stopped people from going out for pleasure, exploring the rest of this incredible City. Just thinking about driving across town can be exhausting, at least for an 'Eastsider' like me.
Another point: I was asked by some residents about my property values, i.e. have they gone down? When I told them I believed they actually went UP, you could have heard a pin drop. I told them area realtors from tony South Pas and Pasadena, as well as Mt Washington are quick to list 'transit adjacent' or 'Gold Line Station closeby' on their flyers and listings. I made little headway, suggesting that if they did not believe me perhaps they shoud to take a ride on a light rail train themselves. Not a lot of enthusiasm for that idea.
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Post by Elson on Mar 20, 2007 21:12:24 GMT -8
there had been no incidents of children being killed or injured while playing nearby.There was a kid killed in Watts just a couple of months ago when he accidentally rode his scooter in front of the train. IIRC he was about 11. That's unfortunate and tragic. But if that's something that happens once in 16 years, then not bad at all. Especially when grown adults in cars find themselves getting hit by trains way more often than kids do (proves that kids have more sense). When the Blue Line was opening there was a huge education campaign in the local schools about light rail safety. I'm sure this was duplicated when the Gold Line was being built and I have no doubt Travis The Owl will make a visit to Exposition corridor schools as well. |
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Mar 20, 2007 23:00:54 GMT -8
Another point: I was asked by some residents about my property values, i.e. have they gone down? When I told them I believed they actually went UP, you could have heard a pin drop. I told them area realtors from tony South Pas and Pasadena, as well as Mt Washington are quick to list 'transit adjacent' or 'Gold Line Station closeby' on their flyers and listings. I made little headway, suggesting that if they did not believe me perhaps they shoud to take a ride on a light rail train themselves. Not a lot of enthusiasm for that idea. When discussing this point w/ the Cheviot & Smartrail group at the meeting, they agreed that prices increase next to train STATIONS, not near rail tracks. I don't have anything to back up that claim, but it seems plassable. |
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Post by Elson on Mar 21, 2007 10:11:40 GMT -8
Another point: I was asked by some residents about my property values, i.e. have they gone down? When I told them I believed they actually went UP, you could have heard a pin drop. I told them area realtors from tony South Pas and Pasadena, as well as Mt Washington are quick to list 'transit adjacent' or 'Gold Line Station closeby' on their flyers and listings. I made little headway, suggesting that if they did not believe me perhaps they shoud to take a ride on a light rail train themselves. Not a lot of enthusiasm for that idea. When discussing this point w/ the Cheviot & Smartrail group at the meeting, they agreed that prices increase next to train STATIONS, not near rail tracks. I don't have anything to back up that claim, but it seems plassable. The whole "property value" argument is sooooo old. Anybody who thinks that property values are going down ANYWHERE in this town is on crack. Even homes in the poor areas are nearing the half-million dollar range! |
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Post by whitmanlam on Mar 21, 2007 11:38:40 GMT -8
They don't seem to appreciate the improvements that will go into their neighborhood.
A landscaped jogging and bike path, a stream, and the possibility for pocket parks and picnic tables along the ROW.
These amenities should INCREASE property values, not decrease them. To create more recreational opportunities for residents, reduce crime and graffiti.
Just look at the pretty pictures dammit !!
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Post by nicksantangelo on Mar 21, 2007 13:44:43 GMT -8
This is one (bogus) argument that really needs to be put to bed. I can see a guy in South Pas complaining because the train travels about two feet from his backyard fence, but the vast majority of people adjacent will NOT be adversely affected, quite the contrary. Further, that Expo ROW is one wide sucker, at least at the points I inspected before the meeting. So wide in fact that you can put a stream, a bike path, a rail line, et al down the middle!
Other communities would kill for a chance to utilize that. That area has so much potential, and residents are running scared. It just amazes me.
I would check with Cheviot-area realtors to get their thoughts on this. If they are at all savvy, they will be hip to the advantages of transit-friendly rail. Hell, maybe I should get a realtor license and get on the bandwagon!
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D
New Member
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Post by D on Mar 21, 2007 20:47:40 GMT -8
it boggles my mind how close minded and idiotic some people are. How do they even justify some of their opinions and rationalizations? It would be sad if a handful of dumb asses can keep this great project from going where it should. Also, they live next to a rail way, what they hell do they expect?
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Post by nicksantangelo on Mar 22, 2007 6:57:37 GMT -8
D:
I heard a few comments like that at the meeting, i.e. what did they expect, they live right next to the train tracks! One fella was staring down at the map of the Venice/Sep diversion and shaking his head, saying it was the stupidest thing he'd ever seen. The ariel photos are great in that they demonstrate the logic of the existing ROW while showing how ludicrous the diversion is.
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Post by wakko11 on Mar 22, 2007 7:42:46 GMT -8
This is one (bogus) argument that really needs to be put to bed. I can see a guy in South Pas complaining because the train travels about two feet from his backyard fence, but the vast majority of people adjacent will NOT be adversely affected, quite the contrary. Further, that Expo ROW is one wide sucker, at least at the points I inspected before the meeting. So wide in fact that you can put a stream, a bike path, a rail line, et al down the middle! Other communities would kill for a chance to utilize that. That area has so much potential, and residents are running scared. It just amazes me. I would check with Cheviot-area realtors to get their thoughts on this. If they are at all savvy, they will be hip to the advantages of transit-friendly rail. Hell, maybe I should get a realtor license and get on the bandwagon! That guy in South Pasadena shouldn't have bought the house knowing that it was two feet from a railroad right-of-way. It like those homeowners complaining about aircraft noise even though they chose to buy a house adjacent to a then-active El Toro Marine base...  |
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jomiy
New Member
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Post by jomiy on Mar 25, 2007 21:52:25 GMT -8
While I do agree that using existing ROW will drastically reduce cost and simplify approvals, it appears this alternative will completely bypass downtown Culver City. I'm not too familiar with the area, but the Expo ROW alternative appears to route North of the downtown triangle (according to its website).
Although we'll find out after the study, it seems the Sepulvida/Venice alignment lies in areas with better transit characteristics:
1. Directly serve downtown Culver City
2. Possible boost of development within the city
3. Higher existing population densities
4. Non-residential zoning, meaning possible infill or rezoning opportunities
Looking at aerials of the Expo ROW, it is in single family low dense housing, and I do not see TOD or enhanced land uses on this route.
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Post by kenalpern on Mar 25, 2007 22:45:34 GMT -8
A very good point, jomiy, one that begs an answer...again and again and again:
A Venice Blvd. rail line to the beach as a spur of the Expo Line is a very, very good thing to explore, but a Sepulveda/Venice diversion of an Exposition/10 freeway corridor rail line is something ELSE altogether!
A Westside "Expo Line Phase III" that has a Venice Blvd. Busway or Rail Line is absolutely explored AFTER the Expo Line is solidly on a straight line course to Santa Monica.
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