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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 8, 2010 14:57:18 GMT -8
I didn't imply that you said that spokker...Gokhan did. Look at who I'm quoting...
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 25, 2010 13:41:01 GMT -8
The discussion on renaming the Expo Line not withstanding, I think the de facto name has already become "Expo Line," like San Diego Freeway or Santa Monica Freeway--not whatever the formal names are that no one knows.
All of the discussions surrounding construction--the FEIR and now the discussions that ramp up on Phase II-- and billboards are getting the community familiar with and used to "Expo Line." Another name mayl not supplant "Expo Line" as the commonly used term for this rail.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 25, 2010 15:31:17 GMT -8
100% agreed.
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Post by James Fujita on Jan 26, 2010 10:27:34 GMT -8
The discussion on renaming the Expo Line not withstanding, I think the de facto name has already become "Expo Line," like San Diego Freeway or Santa Monica Freeway--not whatever the formal names are that no one knows. All of the discussions surrounding construction--the FEIR and now the discussions that ramp up on Phase II-- and billboards are getting the community familiar with and used to "Expo Line." Another name mayl not supplant "Expo Line" as the commonly used term for this rail. sorry if this is a tad nitpicky, but San Diego and Santa Monica are, in fact official names for what are the 405 and 10 freeways. a better example would be the Century Freeway, which is unofficial but has always been more popular than the official Glenn M. Anderson name. however, I fully agree that Expo Line has become the de facto name and that any official name, whenever it is decided, will undoubtedly be at an disadvantage. the only real "naming" question at this point is the color is the line
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 26, 2010 18:37:27 GMT -8
Thanks for the clarification!
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Post by kenalpern on Jan 27, 2010 6:56:46 GMT -8
Methinks that, sooner or later when we're tired of dealing with Bernard Parks' nonsense, the aqua color of the line will lead to a renaming of the Expo Line...but the line will always have two names: Expo and Aqua.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 15, 2010 14:54:04 GMT -8
When Expo opens, we will have three LRT lines going to/through Downtown: - Blue Line (Long Beach/Downtown)
- Gold Line (Foothill/Eastside)
- Expo Line (Santa Monica/Downtown).
At that point, the Metro Board can assign either Aqua or Rose to Expo, as it will be temporary anyway. Because...when the Regional Connector opens, we will have the four lines from the original three. If they use the following names: - Blue Line (Long Beach/Eastside)
- Gold Line (Long Beach/Foothill)
- Aqua Line (Santa Monica/Eastside)
- Rose Line (Santa Monica/Foothill)
Everybody (hopefully) will be happy. Expo will be served by both Aqua and Rose, depending on whether it is going to the Eastside Route or the Foothill Route. Pasadena will get the Rose Line (for the tournament of Roses). The only loss will be to the Eastside Route, which will no longer have Gold service (it will be served by the Blue Line and the Aqua Line).
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Apr 15, 2010 16:20:53 GMT -8
When Expo opens, we will have three LRT lines going to/through Downtown: - Blue Line (Long Beach/Downtown)
- Gold Line (Foothill/Eastside)
- Expo Line (Santa Monica/Downtown).
At that point, the Metro Board can assign either Aqua or Rose to Expo, as it will be temporary anyway. Because...when the Regional Connector opens, we will have the four lines from the original three. If they use the following names: - Blue Line (Long Beach/Eastside)
- Gold Line (Long Beach/Foothill)
- Aqua Line (Santa Monica/Eastside)
- Rose Line (Santa Monica/Foothill)
Everybody (hopefully) will be happy. Expo will be served by both Aqua and Rose, depending on whether it is going to the Eastside Route or the Foothill Route. Pasadena will get the Rose Line (for the tournament of Roses). The only loss will be to the Eastside Route, which will no longer have Gold service (it will be served by the Blue Line and the Aqua Line). I thought this was already decided by Metro that the preliminary plans is for there to be 2 lines. 1 that goes north-south (Pasadena to Long Beach) and a second that goes east-west (Foothill to Santa Moncia). They noted the demand for Long Beach to East LA, or Long Beach to Santa Monica, or Pasadena to East LA doesn't justify it's own routes. The person can transfer at Little Tokyo station. I, for one, agree with Metro. Significantly more people need Metro to go east-west and north-south. We may inconvenience a few......but this would provide for faster headways. Check out how many already go between east LA to Pasadena (hint: it's not much). So, I think Expo Line will be the temporary designation as the future Gold Line will be East LA to Santa Monica and the Blue Line will be what was meant initially....Long Beach to Pasadena. Source: thesource.metro.net/2010/04/09/reminder-regional-connector-meeting-live-stream-starts-at-noon-today/
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 15, 2010 16:59:29 GMT -8
I don't remember them ever saying they were going to use "Blue" and "Gold" as the new names. But if they did, then I will retract my comments.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 15, 2010 17:56:04 GMT -8
They haven't even decided what the new service patterns will be, much less the names.
Names aside, one issue that I see with the service patterns that you listed is that there will be way too many trains going to the SGV and the eastside. Both currently get by with 8 trains, 2-cars long per hour. That's 16 cars total. When Expo opens, both Expo and the blue line will be sending 12 tph that are 3 cars long. That's 36 cars per hour. Way more than either the SGV or the eastside will need based on todays numbers. Also, LAUS will only get 12 tph, which will probably not be enough. I think that they will need to have 2 Expo-eastside and 2 LB-SGV trains end at LAUS in order to balance the service based on need. That way the eastside and SGV will get 10 tph and LAUS will get 16 tph.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 15, 2010 18:07:53 GMT -8
On second though maybe send 4 tph from each line at rush hour to LAUS. That's an even better balance.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Apr 15, 2010 19:06:33 GMT -8
Definitely Aqua.
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Post by tobias087 on Apr 15, 2010 19:18:28 GMT -8
They haven't even decided what the new service patterns will be, much less the names. Names aside, one issue that I see with the service patterns that you listed is that there will be way too many trains going to the SGV and the eastside. Both currently get by with 8 trains, 2-cars long per hour. That's 16 cars total. When Expo opens, both Expo and the blue line will be sending 12 tph that are 3 cars long. That's 36 cars per hour. Way more than either the SGV or the eastside will need based on todays numbers. Also, LAUS will only get 12 tph, which will probably not be enough. I think that they will need to have 2 Expo-eastside and 2 LB-SGV trains end at LAUS in order to balance the service based on need. That way the eastside and SGV will get 10 tph and LAUS will get 16 tph. At the latest community update meeting, the Downtown Connector people seemed quite set on doing the Santa Monica/Eastside, Long Beach/Pasadena route, although they did note that if demand changes or is not what was predicted, they setup will likely be changed. Also, they implied that, to at least some extent, the wasted capacity of running Blue/Expo headways on the Gold line will be at least slightly picked up by new ridership generated by the increased connectivity.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 15, 2010 20:38:27 GMT -8
I know that's where we're headed, but it's not been decided formally. And neither have the colors.
Yes, the additional capacity will be somewhat mitigated by the increased ridership, but I doubt that it will double anytime soon. Plus the connector could very well need more than 12 tph soon after opening. It's just a little problematic to combine what will likely be two of the busiest light rail lines in the country with the under performing gold line.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 16, 2010 6:14:52 GMT -8
Well let's suppose they do Blue=LB-Foothill and Gold=SM-Eastside. I don't see the new Gold Line being too big of a problem operationally, because the Eastside segment isn't very long (for now). In this scenario, the Blue Line will be the problem, because it's going to be so long. Long Beach to current Pasadena terminus would be 37 miles, and take 1-1/2 hours. Add to that the Foothill Extensions, and you have 2+ hour trips. How do you load balance a route like that, where demand along the route is so varied?
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Post by transitfan on Apr 16, 2010 9:50:51 GMT -8
Well let's suppose they do Blue=LB-Foothill and Gold=SM-Eastside. I don't see the new Gold Line being too big of a problem operationally, because the Eastside segment isn't very long (for now). In this scenario, the Blue Line will be the problem, because it's going to be so long. Long Beach to current Pasadena terminus would be 37 miles, and take 1-1/2 hours. Add to that the Foothill Extensions, and you have 2+ hour trips. How do you load balance a route like that, where demand along the route is so varied? That will be a long route. Just Pasadena to Long Beach will rival the longest NYC subway route (the A from 207th St to Far Rockaway). And then with Foothill...might just break a record for length (in time and distance) of a light rail route. I suspect the Blue Line may become a junior route, as the senior operators will bid away from it. Which brings up another point: Currently the Blue Line operates of the yard next to the 710 in north Long Beach (division 11), while the Gold Line operates out of the yard near Chinatown (division 21). Expo phase 1 will operate out of D11 as well, though a few trains may be stored overnight at the new small storage facility that MTA will build across from Washington station. Once Expo phase 2 opens (which will be before the RC is in service), Expo trains will operate from the yard in Santa Monica (division number to be determined). But once the RC is open--the new Gold Line (East L. A. to Sta Monica) would probably still operate from Santa Monica division (as we'll call it), but the new, super-extended Blue Line I guess would operate from both D11 and D21, a first for rail operations. I guess the train run numbers would be split like the buses, 1-50 for D11, and 51-99 for D21. And once the Foothill extension opens, isn't there supposed to be a yard for that as well (in Irwindale?) Should be interesting ;D
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 16, 2010 10:23:42 GMT -8
Chicago has some very long lines too. The way they do it is to split their line into local innercity service and express service. Metro could do that, but they'd have to build express tracks.
With this arrangement, innercity service would hit every stop between Rosa Parks and Highland Park, for example. Express service would cover the entire length from Long Beach to Azusa (and beyond), but would skip long stretches of stations: in this example, all stations between Rosa Parks and Washington, and those between Chinatown to Highland Park.
Until they can do this or something like it, Metro is going to have a hard time properly balancing service between high-demand and low-demand route segments.
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 17, 2010 22:42:04 GMT -8
At last report, the maintenance facility for the Gold Line is expected to be in Monrovia, a block or two east of the historic Monrovia (ex Santa Fe) station. I was told that the Irwindale site presented accessibility problems.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Apr 27, 2010 16:55:04 GMT -8
According to Curbed L.A. Metro will soon be picking a color for the Expo Line and that color will likely be Aqua la.curbed.com/archives/2010/04/expo_update_farmdale_station_color_issue.php#more"a decision on the color and official name of the line is coming soon, Metro's Dave Sotero says. Basically, don't get used to saying Expo; Metro believes it'll be confusing to riders who are familiar with all the other color-based lines. Best guesses would indicate the route will be called the Aqua Line (the line branches off from the Blue Line, will go to the ocean, and local community groups like Friends 4 Expo like the Aqua option). There are other colors being bandied about: olive, lime, copper, and bronze. Ironically, it was back at the 2000 Democratic National Convention, held in LA, that a group of artists called attention to the lack of public transit by putting up "Aqua Line" signs "
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Post by wad on Apr 29, 2010 3:56:05 GMT -8
There are other colors being bandied about: olive, lime, copper, and bronze. If we're at the point where we have to pick colors from the big Crayola box, we might as well lead the curve and start naming lines after Pantone spot colors.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 29, 2010 7:42:12 GMT -8
There are other colors being bandied about: olive, lime, copper, and bronze. If we're at the point where we have to pick colors from the big Crayola box, we might as well lead the curve and start naming lines after Pantone spot colors. These are all horrible names, aren't they? That's what happens when you run out of primary colors. Even Aqua sounds quite weird as the name of a rail line.
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Post by rajacobs on Apr 29, 2010 11:18:37 GMT -8
Gosh, I think that "Expo" grabs ahold of the uniqueness and beauty of the line (Exposition Park, USC, Coliseum, museums, Crenshaw District, See's Candy Factory(!), Culver Junction, Palms/CH, Beach, etc) and the LA history that it captures--hearkening back to the beginning of USC, the racetrack that preceded Exposition Park, and the boulevard that once went from there to the sea.
I will argue that the Expo line is an unique treasure whose historical meaning should be captured in the name!
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 29, 2010 11:22:25 GMT -8
These are all horrible names, aren't they? That's what happens when you run out of primary colors. Even Aqua sounds quite weird as the name of a rail line. I agree, all of those sound kind of weird. I was hoping that by now they would have gone to using letters/numbers/location names, instead of colors. It's also too bad that normal colors like Pink, Yellow, Brown, and Black are verboten because of the racial/sexual-preference connotations. And Orange and Silver were wasted on bus lines. Anyway, of the colors that are left, Aqua makes the most sense, for all the reasons that have been given. I'm sure it will pass, now that cranky-pants Parks is no longer on the Metro board.
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Post by tobias087 on Apr 29, 2010 12:16:55 GMT -8
Let's of course not forget that any name chosen will only be temporary, pending the completion of the downtown connector. It will be a shame how many signs and maps Metro will have to replace along Expo (Aqua) and likely along the Foothill Gold line, but at least we'll be back to primary colors.
Sees candy factory? Where's that? Now I'm even more excited for the line to open! ;D
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Post by rajacobs on Apr 29, 2010 15:45:33 GMT -8
The See's Candy Factory and factory store ...which frequently offers free samples, is located just a few steps south of Jefferson--where the La Cienega station will be located on the Expo line, on the westside of La Cienega.
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 29, 2010 16:16:12 GMT -8
Let's of course not forget that any name chosen will only be temporary, pending the completion of the downtown connector. True but the Regional Connector isn't going to be reality for quite awhile. And if somehow the Connector gets built sooner than expected, then the problem of colors and names will be eclipsed by the kick-ass improvement to our Metro system. The See's Candy Factory and factory store ...which frequently offers free samples, is located just a few steps south of Jefferson--where the La Cienega station will be located on the Expo line, on the westside of La Cienega. Yes. Metro will need to change the name to "La Cienega/Jefferson/Sees Candy".
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Post by rubbertoe on Apr 29, 2010 17:11:35 GMT -8
Yes. Metro will need to change the name to "La Cienega/Jefferson/Sees Candy". When the regional connector is done it will be a one seat ride from the King Taco station to the Sees Candy station for dessert
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 30, 2010 21:44:14 GMT -8
I transferred Metro's colors to wikipedia, here's an example.Here's the color chart: I must not be up on color terminology, because I thought Aqua would be a bitter greener than this. If I didn't know it, I'd say probably call this "light blue" (and the Blue Line is "dark blue").
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Post by rajacobs on Apr 30, 2010 23:15:16 GMT -8
I agree with Metrocenter regarding color confusion. But perhaps the encompassing issue is that ...Some of us are color blind! Heck, about 10% of the male population is color-blind. Typically that's variations on red and green that cause a real problem and shades of blue and purple.
I'm color blind; I cannot make out the difference between metro's Purple and Blue. At the airport, I can't distinguish the Red shuttles from the Orange shuttles. Gold and Citrus/Lime would utterly confuse me.
The "Olive" "Copper" and dark "Orange" shades that are posted above look look pretty darn similar.
Did someone suggest that using "Expo" would be difficult on riders? ...Not compared with the color confusion offered to 10% of the male population!
Keep it to primary colors. We've got a chance there. ...Then perhaps stripes or words (like Expo) or patterns!
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Post by masonite on Apr 30, 2010 23:30:22 GMT -8
I agree with Metrocenter regarding color confusion. ...Some of us are color blind and "Olive" "Copper" and dark "Orange" look pretty darn similar. Heck, Metro's version of Purple and Blue and Metro's Red and Orange are already too close. And Gold and Citrus/Lime would utterly confuse me. Did someone suggest that using "Expo" would be difficult on riders? ...Not compared with the color confusion offered to 10% of the male population who are color-blind! I'll also agree that we are officially getting into color confusion. If I saw the aqua color without seeing the blue color, I would think the aqua was blue. I like the names and don't see why names like Expo won't work. Some people are really passionate about letters and numbers (a la New York). Too bad we wasted Orange and Silver. That would have bought quite a bit of time before this has to be decided.
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