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Post by nickv on May 18, 2009 11:25:34 GMT -8
Victorville Daily Press DesertXpress HSR Train to Vegas possible by 2015
BROOKE EDWARDS Staff Writer Victor Valley residents may be able to celebrate New Year’s Eve 2015 in Las Vegas without battling Interstate 15 traffic.
With federal hearings past and a related lawsuit moving toward settlement, the first dedicated high-speed passenger rail system in the United States could break ground in Victorville next year.
DesertXpress is a $3.5 billion privately funded project that will connect Victorville and Las Vegas, covering the 185 miles over newly built track at a top speed of 150 mph.
The train will drop visitors in Vegas in roughly an hour and 20 minutes and cost $110 round-trip, according to DesertXpress President Tom Stone. There also would be a possible future connection to Palmdale.
The Federal Railroad Administration, which is the lead agency reviewing the project, recently held a series of well-attended public comment meetings in Las Vegas, Barstow and Victorville on its draft environmental impact statement for DesertXpress. The public has another week to submit comments on the draft EIS, which took nearly three years and some $25 million to complete.
“There were over 100 people in attendance and every verbal comment that was provided was positive and supportive,” said Andrew Mack, DesertXpress vice president, of the Victorville hearing.
The main point of contention raised at some of the hearings, according to reports, is the competing California Nevada Interstate Maglev Project, a federally funded train that would run from Anaheim to Las Vegas with stops in Ontario, Victorville, Barstow and Primm.
According to the draft EIS, the railroad agency is looking at the projects as mutually exclusive because there’s not a large enough market to support them both.
The Maglev is roughly a year away from receiving its draft EIS from the federal rail agency.
Meanwhile, a lawsuit over the 2006 memorandum of understanding the city of Victorville signed with DesertXpress Enterprises LLC, Transit Real Estate Development and Inland Group Inc. for the rail terminal, maintenance and storage facility is moving toward a settlement, according to court records.
Investment company Niles LLC filed a civil suit against Victorville last June, claiming the city gave the train’s backers exclusive rights to develop land it didn’t even own.
George Soneff, attorney for Niles LLC, said he expects the settlement to be final the next time the city adopts an updated specific plan.
While it’s up to the contractor to determine the final sequence for the project, Stone said it’s typical for construction to start where the train’s maintenance facilities will be located. That means Victorville’s terminus — planned as a luxury development itself — could be under construction by the end of first quarter 2010, with more than 10 million people riding the rails annually by 2015.
Kulat said there’s no timeline yet for when DesertXpress’ final EIS will be released, but expects it will be within the next nine months — a target Stone called “quite conservative.”
Once the final report is released, Kulat said it’s up to DesertXpress to put together the funding and plans to move the project forward.
The deadline to submit public comments on the DesertXpress draft environmental impact statement is May 22. Comments can be sent to the Federal Railroad Administration at 1200 New Jersey Avenue S.E. MS-20, Washington, D.C. 20590, Attn.: DesertXpress EIS.
The full draft EIS is available at the Victorville public library and online at www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1703.
Call now to take advantage of our subscription special, 12 weeks for $25.23 (regular price is 12 weeks for $37.85). To subscribe to the Daily Press, call 241-7755 or click here.
Brooke Edwards may be reached at 955-5358 or at bedwards@VVDailyPress.com.
Like many of those who attended the hearing, Brondo doesn't mind the train's initial route. It would carry passengers to Victorville, Calif., a town 190 miles away and seemingly in the middle of nowhere.
Stone said the train would connect with a voter-approved California system that would take passengers to a major train station in Palmdale, Calif. As California expands that rail system, riders will be able to make their way to major cities in both Southern and Northern California.
"This would be a huge convenience," Brondo said.
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Post by Gokhan on May 18, 2009 11:49:14 GMT -8
This is good but Victorville is halfway to Vegas timewise. Most congestion happens between LA and Victorville. So, this won't be of any use until it connects to the future CA HSR network through Palmdale.
It would be nice if they could have connected this to the Union Station along the existing freight lines, but I understand there are issues with single-tracking and narrow tunnels and UP refusing to share tracks with their long freight trains.
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Post by darrell on May 18, 2009 13:38:31 GMT -8
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Post by kenalpern on May 18, 2009 16:15:38 GMT -8
Between a MagLev proposal that's flawed on so many levels, and a cheaper but infuriatingly nonconnecting rail on wheels HSR, I think that neither of these projects merit any construction $$$ at this time. Go CAHSR, and let these two groups fall by the wayside!
A pox on all their parties, although I wish that someone with influence could smack around a few folks on the head behind the scenes and come up with a plan for a CAHSR-compatible train that--with PRIVATE funding!!!--would connect Anaheim to Las Vegas with rail-on-wheels technology.
Connectivity with proven technology--is that really so hard to ask for?
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Post by crzwdjk on May 18, 2009 17:02:42 GMT -8
Technical compatibility with CAHSR is kind of difficult given that CAHSR hasn't really defined any technical standards yet, aside from standard gauge track and 25kV electrification, both of which will be used by DesertXPress as well.
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Post by Gokhan on May 19, 2009 12:34:21 GMT -8
Between a MagLev proposal that's flawed on so many levels, and a cheaper but infuriatingly nonconnecting rail on wheels HSR, I think that neither of these projects merit any construction $$$ at this time. Go CAHSR, and let these two groups fall by the wayside! A pox on all their parties, although I wish that someone with influence could smack around a few folks on the head behind the scenes and come up with a plan for a CAHSR-compatible train that--with PRIVATE funding!!!--would connect Anaheim to Las Vegas with rail-on-wheels technology. Connectivity with proven technology--is that really so hard to ask for? The maglev is nothing but another amusement-park ride like the Las Vegas Monorail. This time they are asking the federal government to fund an amusement-park ride. It will be basically a small trolley with a jittery and shaky ride on a fancy guideway like the monorail. It will be the longest and most expensive amusement ride in the world. If they want to build something with private funds, it's fine, but use of federal money for such a project is unacceptable. It's also ridiculous that the line would run from Orange County to Vegas, permanently skipping LA. I think the HSR (DesertXpress) might be a good idea as long as it is planned to be fully compatible with the CA HSR. As stated in the article, the people who are planning this line are not dummies and they know that it's ending at nowhere (Victorville) and few people from LA will actually drive all the way to Victorville and then leave their cars and pay $150 to ride it. The reason it's terminating there is the cost of tunneling through the mountains. I think an HSR line between LA and Vegas is much needed and if they can commit to extending it to Palmdale and make it compatible with CA HSR, it's a good idea.
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Post by kenalpern on May 19, 2009 15:30:07 GMT -8
I agree with you, word for word, Gokhan, and I believe that this is a future leg of the CAHSR network.
What I'd like to see is the MagLev bunch disappear and to have the Desert Xpress go to the Anaheim terminus that the MagLev train was supposed to go. How that occurs, I don't know--but it's what's needed.
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Post by Gokhan on May 19, 2009 17:49:27 GMT -8
I was reading about Shanghai Maglev on Wikipedia and it's mentioned that it cut the overall trip time to the airport by only 40 seconds in comparison to conventional HSR. Yet, it cost several times more. Moreover, the ridership is very poor thanks to expensive tickets and inconveniently placed terminals, as maglev trains cannot follow conventional tracks to actual destinations, which prohibit heavy infrastructure. The article also mentions that the whole thing is being considered a show-off rather than something meant to be useful -- just like proposed Disneyland - Vegas maglev.
I think it's clear that the conventional HSR technology with speeds up to 205 MPH (330 km/h) is the way to go. It allows large capacity and it's flexible as it can follow existing tracks at speeds less than 137 MPH (220 km/h). You also don't get the vibrations from the unstable magnetic levitation, which requires constant directional correction.
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Post by losangeles2319 on May 19, 2009 18:24:06 GMT -8
THE HI-DESERT DONT HATE!!! lol no no i agree we are in the middle of nowhere out here.
I think connecting to HSR is the best. Who says we couldn't connect to Anaheim once we get into LA? The price seems a little high, hopefully they could lower it. and could there ever exist a Metrolink route using those tracks? LA-Palmdale-Hesperia or maybe even to Barstow (that'd be pushing it tho)
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Post by kenalpern on Jun 9, 2009 15:18:54 GMT -8
This is GREAT news! Looks like the Senate Majority Leader just smelled the coffee! Ken
Los Angeles Times By Dan Weikel June 8, 2009.
U.S. Sen. Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader and an ardent supporter of high speed rail systems, said today he no longer favors construction of a maglev -- or magnetic levitation -- train between Anaheim and Las Vegas.
Instead, the Nevada Democrat said he now favors a conventional high speed train between Victorville and Las Vegas -- a privately funded venture that is farther along in the planning process and cheaper to build than the maglev proposal, which has been studied for almost three decades.
"I"ve been working on this for 30 years," Reid said. "We've gotten nowhere. Maglev projects have been abandoned around the world. It's time to stop talking and start doing something."
The proposed DesertXpress is a steel-wheeled train that would travel up to 150 mph along the heavily traveled I-15 corridor. It would provide an alternative to motorists who often drive more than six hours one way during weekends to reach Las Vegas from the Los Angeles area. The 183-mile system is estimated to cost $3.5 billion to $4 billion.
In contrast, the system proposed by the American Maglev Group, which would rely on government funding and bonds sold to investors, would run 270 miles and cost at least $12 billion to build. A first leg is planned for Las Vegas to Primm on the Nevada-California line.
Maglev technology uses magnetic force to propel trains on a cushion of air down a guideway at speeds of more than 300 mph.
Citing a recent Government Accountability Office study, Reid said he had lost confidence in the maglev project, which the report stated could cost up to $40 billion -- far more than originally estimated.
"Maglev is not a priority for me anymore," Reid said. "We need to get people moving. The I-15 is not working."
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Post by kenalpern on Jun 9, 2009 15:38:13 GMT -8
Here's an interesting thought...
What if the MagLev idea was just tossed out altogether and this HSR went to Anaheim?
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Post by spokker on Jun 9, 2009 15:57:47 GMT -8
DesertXpress is a privately funded project and I wonder how much additional risk they would take on.
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Post by losangeles2319 on Jun 9, 2009 17:22:10 GMT -8
Here's an interesting thought... What if the MagLev idea was just tossed out altogether and this HSR went to Anaheim? Would that mean a new route down the Cajon Pass to keep it fast or just slow speeds as it uses the existing tracks between Hesperia and Devore?
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Post by James Fujita on Jun 15, 2009 15:19:07 GMT -8
personally, I would not shed a tear if the Las Vegas MagLev died... I feel the same way about MagLev that I do about monorails, namely too much flash and not enough substance.
but DesertXpress is a different deal completely. I mean, yes Victorville doesn't have the star power of Los Angeles or even Anaheim... but I have to sympathize with the private developers of this project. Cajon Pass will be a huge obstacle to overcome, as will all of the NIMBYs between San Bernardino and Anaheim.
the best case scenario IMHO would be for California to get started on the L.A. to San Francisco train (or maybe Anaheim to San Jose?), for DesertXpress to win the battle of the Vegas trains, and hope that a link gets built between Victorville and Palmdale. it's a slower route to Orange County, but I've learned that there's a lot of Vegas fans in the San Joaquin Valley, so you'd pick up traffic coming from that direction.
finally, I am fascinated by the idea of a privately-funded passenger line (even if it does get government help). we haven't seen anything like that in America in years, but my travels in Japan have shown that it is at least possible for private train lines to be a success... so maybe they are on to something?
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Post by spokker on Jun 15, 2009 18:44:50 GMT -8
I think that when people show support for DesertXpress, they really aren't showing support for the DesertXpress that is currently planned, but the possibility of it connecting up with California's high speed rail system to allow for a one-seat ride between LA and Vegas.
The terminus station in Victorville is just wacky. But hey, hats off to those guys for trying.
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Post by kenalpern on Jun 16, 2009 6:17:49 GMT -8
I concur, word for word, with spokker. Victorville gets us part-way there, but it's a wacky and inefficient terminal. Palmdale is a pretty darn weird connection, too...what I want to know is how Anaheim was supposed to be connected to Barstow with the MagLev plan--could we use that route?
In short, Palmdale as an ultimate goal is silly--but Anaheim or Union Station are both great ideas.
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Post by James Fujita on Jun 16, 2009 11:11:49 GMT -8
I agree that Palmdale looks silly as an "ultimate goal".... but we have to look at it with the same attitude and point-of-view that we use when we say that "every mile" of light rail adds to the overall transit network.
that Victorville-to-Palmdale link makes a lot more sense when you consider that CAHSR is going to go through Palmdale. DesertXpress can let CAHSR do the heavy lifting through the mountains. Imagine a high-speed network with three possible routes: L.A.-S.F., L.A-Vegas, S.F.-Vegas... Or imagine if the Palmdale airport finally takes off. Anywhere-Palmdale-Vegas, anyone?
of course, getting from Barstow to San Bernardino to Anaheim (presumably via the 91 corridor?) would be pretty awesome, too. Of course, the devil is in the details, which frankly I don't know.
the possibilities are kind of interesting. heading north from Union Station, CAHSR wold effectively electrify the Metrolink Antelope Valley Line. southbound, CAHSR has the potential to do the same thing to the Orange County Line. The current plans for L.A. to San Diego call for it heading to the Inland Empire first... that's a lot of potential for boosting Metrolink service, even before you get into the whole Anaheim-Riverside-San Bernardino-Victorville question....
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Post by spokker on Jun 16, 2009 11:47:55 GMT -8
Once the Alternatives Analysis for LA-Palmdale is finalized we'll know more. Or you can send in your comment.
In the LA-Anaheim section they threw out shared tracks and are going for dedicated HSR tracks between LA and Anaheim.
In the option they are carrying forward for more study, two tracks for HSR and four for Metrolink/freight/Surfliner, and four mainline tracks between Anaheim and Fullerton, two for HSR and two for freight/Metrolink/Surfliner.
If Metrolink wants to operate on HSR tracks they'll have to buy electric lightweight (well compared to FRA-compliant trains) trains. The regular tracks won't be electrified by any HSR money and I don't know how Metrolink trains would serve non-HSR stations.
This isn't like the Caltrain situation where the Peninsula route is going to be electrified entirely and freight is pretty light. The CHSRA is talking about flyovers and huge aerial structures to get over the 710 between LA-Fullerton so they don't screw with freight trains.
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Post by James Fujita on Jun 16, 2009 14:44:37 GMT -8
Sooner or later, Metrolink ought to electrify at least some of their lines, especially if Orange County keeps wanting to beef up service and if smog is a concern to anyone. I know it's an expensive proposition, but it would be worth it as a long term investment. If high-speed rail is the catalyst for modernizing Metrolink tracks and stations, then more so the better.
I wouldn't have a problem with keeping Metrolink and CAHSR on separate tracks as long as there's room for it. That's how they do things in Japan. The Shinkansen is a different track gauge, so they obviously can't run on the same tracks. However, they do share the same right-of-way and the same stations, even if they can't share tracks.
It's a brave new world, to be certain, but there's a huge difference between "difficult" and "impossible".
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Jun 18, 2009 10:13:43 GMT -8
For some reason, I just assumed the Los Angeles - Las Vegas HSR had to go through the Cajon Pass. Palmdale makes so much sense. When you see that map.
There could also be San Francisco - Las Vegas trains someday as well. Brilliant.
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Post by kenalpern on Jun 18, 2009 15:59:04 GMT -8
The map definitely makes sense, but I still see a big hole between Ontario Airport and Victorville...and folks will wonder what the heck is going on. It makes a bit of sense, if you've got a fast train, to go all the way up to Palmdale before heading east...but certain Riverside County and Inland Empire residents (and even Orange County/Anaheim residents) will say something to the effect of...say whaaaaaaat?
Still, there are short-term and long-term goals for us to address; I'd like to see the Cajon Pass be revisited (how, again, were the MagLev trains supposed to traverse it?), but it's a good start.
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Post by James Fujita on Jun 19, 2009 2:15:04 GMT -8
Heh. Well, we may be putting the high-speed cart before the horse here After all, at this point, we don't have the Desert Xpress or the CAHSR built yet, and depending on what segment gets built first, the map won't look like the one on this message board for a while. Still it would be fun to see if people push as hard for Inland Empire HSR as they have been pushing for the Foothill Extension.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 13, 2010 9:46:51 GMT -8
Nevada senator Harry Reid is making a big announcement today in Las Vegas, and transportation secretary LaHood will be there. The fact that they mention "thousands of jobs" makes me think that the announcement will be something along the lines of finally disclosing the funding source for DesertXpress. It is closer than Maglev to having all the environmental documents in place to begin construction. I'll update this later today when the story comes out... www.fox5vegas.com/news/25378210/detail.htmlLooks like there is a news conference scheduled for 1:30pm PST.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 13, 2010 10:58:38 GMT -8
It's funny, at the end of the story there is a poll asking which project you support. Here are the results:
Maglev 464 - 63% DesertXPress 179 - 24% Neither 91 - 12%
Seems like either an awful lot of people have a preference for the much higher cost Maglev, or someone is gaming the poll to inflate the numbers.
You would think that with a connection to the HSR system at Palmdale (future extension), thereby allowing a one seat ride from LAUS to Vegas, not to mention other parts of California, the DesertXPress plan would get more support than that.
RT
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 13, 2010 14:20:05 GMT -8
It's a Vegas-based station. I've seen stories before which indicated that people in Vegas (or at least people who spend time online in Vegas) are completely delusional when it comes to HSR vs. maglev.
Maglev has the gee-whiz wow-cool effect which Vegas thrives on. The first segment of the project wouldn't even enter California, which means that all of the benefit goes to Nevada, at least at first. People answering surveys and chatting the Vegas message boards are either unaware or deliberately ignorant of the fact that it won't reach Disneyland. It's easy to ignore the cost, too.
They've been led to believe that they will get maglev, and they're desperately hanging on to that last shred of hope.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Oct 13, 2010 14:44:11 GMT -8
People aren't stupid, guys. Even IF it's extended to Palmdale (it wasn't even included in the main EIR), riders will still have to go through LA to get to current and future destinations like Ontario Airport and ARTIC. And it will still be YEARS before 220 Mph trains are able to use DesertXpress' ROW anyway because the LA-Bakersfield segment of the CHSR isn't one of the first ones that will likely be built (given the limited funds available). DesertXpress relies on TOO MANY "what ifs". Let's be honest: The ONLY reason why Maglev isn't widely supported among you guys is because of it's cost and relatively young life in the commercial transportation world. At some point, demand for a route through the Cajon Pass will exceed costs. So far, Maglev is the only technology that can traverse it. Also, since a large portion of the route will be through open land (High Desert), it will hit it's top speed more easily. Compatibility isn't an issue, because you can still have transfer stations with CHSR at ARTIC, Ontario Airport. And if your willing to extend the Metrolink to Victorville, then you should have NO problem with transfers between the Maglev and CHSR. People answering surveys and chatting the Vegas message boards are either unaware or deliberately ignorant of the fact that it won't reach Disneyland. It was never meant to end in Disneyland. That was political garbage spewed out by Republican Bobby Jindal. Rather, it would end at ARTIC, a sounder and smarter alternative. I'm disappointed you didn't know this.....
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 13, 2010 14:47:49 GMT -8
I think both Maglev and Desert Xpress are "pie-in-the-sky" projects. Both need to be shelved and we should look into making the X Train a reality. Yes, it's 5.5 hours long, but it would take existing track (cheaper) and maybe use a 1/10th of whatever Maglev/Desert Xpress could get and electrify or straighten out some tracks. Plus, it will be a direct connection between LA Union Station and Las Vegas; this Victorville stub end is beyond ridiculous. Imagine taking the Red, Purple, or Gold Lines to Union Station and boarding a direct train to Vegas. Victorville is not a destination. 5.5 hours is not long, it's a reasonable time distance. Heck, a train between Boston and NY is 4 hours and that's not bad. www.xtrainvegas.com/
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 13, 2010 15:45:20 GMT -8
It's a Vegas-based station... James, do you have a link to a follow up story? I have been checking several websites and couldn't find anything. RT
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 13, 2010 16:21:34 GMT -8
Actually somewhat disappointing. A study sponsored by DesertXPress showing a high level of job creation, no surprise there. The bad new IMHO is that they are looking for federal loan guarantees to finance the project. I was hoping a private/public entity would be writing the checks, not the Feds... www.fox5vegas.com/news/25384130/detail.htmlLAS VEGAS -- A University of Nevada, Las Vegas study released Wednesday and commissioned by DesertXpress said the high-speed Las Vegas-Victorville, Calif., rail project will create nearly 34,000 jobs in Clark County through 2013. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who is in town for this week's Western High-Speed Rail Conference, were at the news conference at UNLV. In a summary of the study, UNLV researchers found that jobs in construction and real estate directly connected to DesertXpress would total 17,500 in Clark County and 28,400 in San Bernardino County, Calif., over three years. Construction is expected to begin in 2011 and continue through the end of 2013, with an expected start of service in early 2014, according to DesertXpress. Secondary employment, such as retail trade and services, would create an additional 16,400 jobs over three years in Clark County and 26,700 in San Bernardino County, the study said. Overall payroll would amount to $5.9 billion, according to the study. Also announced at the conference is DesertXpress' intention to seek a federally backed loan through the Railroad Rehabilitation and Improvement Financing program, which provides direct loans and loan guarantees up to $35 billion. "For more than 30 years we have been talking about high-speed rail, but now with the possibility of federal loan backing we will do something about it,” Reid said. “In addition to creating jobs in construction and maintenance, DesertXpress will also increase tourism to Southern Nevada, which further creates jobs in our state’s exciting destinations. "With this announcement we move past talk and into action that boosts our economy, creating more than 30,000 jobs for Nevadans with a payroll over $2 billion. It’s finally time for our dreams to leave the station," Reid said. Democrats view high-speed rail projects as a critical piece in their overall plan to revive the economy and repair the nation’s infrastructure. In southern Nevada, however, the debate continues over what kind of train, if any, should be built, and who’s going to pay for it. Reid has been criticized for his support of the DesertXpress, a privately funded high-speed rail that would run first from Las Vegas to Victorville, Calif., before a second leg is built connecting it to Palmdale, Calif. From there, passengers would be able to transfer to other high-speed rail systems to destinations such as Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco and Sacramento. The train’s main competitor has been a Maglev proposal that would also run from Las Vegas to southern California.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 13, 2010 18:31:19 GMT -8
People answering surveys and chatting the Vegas message boards are either unaware or deliberately ignorant of the fact that it won't reach Disneyland. It was never meant to end in Disneyland. That was political garbage spewed out by Republican Bobby Jindal. Rather, it would end at ARTIC, a sounder and smarter alternative. I'm disappointed you didn't know this..... Oh please. ARTIC is in Anaheim, and Anaheim might as well change its name to DisneyHeim for all of the political power that the Mouse holds in that city. In labor disputes, transportation planning, overall residential and commercial zoning — in other words, anything that would affect Disneyland — Anaheim rolls over like a trained puppy for its favorite tax generator. Disneyland is biggest reason why ARTIC exists. I'm disappointed that you would reflect Las Vegas' ignorance about the EXPENSIVE and slowly dying maglev project onto me. I did say that maglev won't reach Disneyland, and I meant it. It won't reach Anaheim in Phase 1. Hell, Maglev Phase 1 won't reach Victorville, so don't get all high and mighty about which project gets closer to Los Angeles. = For the record, I do think X Train would make a better alternative that the rail service we have now, which is nothing. Also, it's silly to assume that DesertXpress wouldn't ask for government money if it were offered to them.
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