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Post by metrocenter on Jan 14, 2010 7:52:12 GMT -8
Once both phases of Expo are open, this line is going to be grade-separated over the entire stretch from Rimpau (just west of Farmdale) in the east all the way to Overland in the west. That 4-mile stretch will provide some real speed in the middle of the line. Farmdale will be the first speed bump encountered by many on their eastbound commute.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 14, 2010 8:43:39 GMT -8
OK, there are no grade crossings between Farmdale and La Brea, and there are grade crossings at Hauser and Bagley.
But, as I have always said, gated at-grade crossings are faster than grade-separated crossings. Trains will not slow down at any of the grade crossings between Gramercy Pl in Los Angeles and 17th St in Santa Monica. The speed limit at these crossings (imposed only by Metro -- there is no CPUC speed limit) is 55 MPH. (Although, there is an exception. There will be some slow-down at Crenshaw, as it was left without crossing gates.)
Whereas at grade-separated crossings, there will be some slowing down due to change of vertical grade and curvature.
Farmdale is technically not a bump, as there is a station there. Since the casual passenger has no way of knowing that this station was added as a mitigation, he/she will not see it as a slow-down.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 14, 2010 11:05:58 GMT -8
Yes, I missed Hauser and Bagley.
I consider Farmdale a speed bump because it is a full stop-and-wait for the train, which would not have existed except for the tomfoolery of FixExpo.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 14, 2010 12:00:40 GMT -8
I do consider it as a speed bump as well, but, fortunately, the casual passenger will not know the background and it won't have a psychological effect on him/her.
We will see how much signal delay will happen east of Gramercy Pl, at Crenshaw, and west of 17th/Colorado. Hopefully it won't be like the Eastside Extension but more like the Blue Line Washington Blvd or better.
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Post by wad on Jan 16, 2010 5:04:00 GMT -8
I do consider it as a speed bump as well, but, fortunately, the casual passenger will not know the background and it won't have a psychological effect on him/her. On the other hand, in popular imagination Marmion Way killed Gold Line ridership.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 16, 2010 8:39:41 GMT -8
On the other hand, in popular imagination Marmion Way killed Gold Line ridership. Mariom Way is a noticeable speed bump for any traveler on the Gold Line. Whereas, Farmdale will not be noticeable because the average traveler (not transit nerds like us ;D) will not know the true reason of a Farmdale station. The average person will think because of the residential density that there's a station....
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Post by wad on Jan 17, 2010 5:09:50 GMT -8
Mariom Way is a noticeable speed bump for any traveler on the Gold Line. It's three minutes of your life that you'll never get back.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 17, 2010 10:05:53 GMT -8
Mariom Way is a noticeable speed bump for any traveler on the Gold Line. It's three minutes of your life that you'll never get back. It's not a 3 minute delay. Since they sped Marmion Way up a couple of years ago, that part of the gold line no longer feels slow to me. Now they need to do something about East LA between Indiana and Atlantic.
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Post by spokker on Jan 17, 2010 11:33:37 GMT -8
Mariom Way is a noticeable speed bump for any traveler on the Gold Line. It's three minutes of your life that you'll never get back. Much like the 72 hours a year that Southern Californians spend in traffic on average. Time you'll never get back isn't exclusive to transit.
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Post by wad on Jan 20, 2010 4:40:21 GMT -8
It's not a 3 minute delay. The 3 minutes is the time from the Southwest Museum station to the Highland Park station. About 90 seconds of that is along Marmion Way, where the train crawls. I raise this point to contradict the Gold Line haters who say this is the stretch of line that killed ridership. I say, if you were to spend hundreds of millions somehow grade separating this stretch, it would all be to save 1 minute of travel time.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 20, 2010 9:56:45 GMT -8
I say, if you were to spend hundreds of millions somehow grade separating this stretch, it would all be to save 1 minute of travel time. If the line had 100,000+ daily riders (100,000 x 1 minute = x 250 workdays/year = 25,000,000 minutes/year = 417,000 rider-hours/year), it might be worth it . At current Gold Line ridership levels, it is not worth it.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 20, 2010 11:03:24 GMT -8
It would have been cheaper to acquire the row of the houses on either side and widen the right-of-way, which would allow 55 MPH operations.
But this is unnecessary. 1 minute is 1 minute, nothing more, nothing less. If the gas becomes $10 a gallon here like in every other country in the world, ridership would increase. With the trillions of dollars of gas tax generated, they could build all kinds of lines, fix the social security, among other things.
In any case 35 MPH operations (after fencing the line on both sides) would be safe here, but this was unfortunately NIMBYism at work.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 20, 2010 16:26:05 GMT -8
I raise this point to contradict the Gold Line haters who say this is the stretch of line that killed ridership. I say, if you were to spend hundreds of millions somehow grade separating this stretch, it would all be to save 1 minute of travel time. Marmion Way was contributing factor that caused many of the initial gold line riders to leave. Not a reason by itself but combined with things like transfers, and distance from the red line to Bunker Hill offices, etc. it was a legitimate issue.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 20, 2010 16:33:16 GMT -8
But this is unnecessary. 1 minute is 1 minute, nothing more, nothing less. Theoretically but not with real people. The perception of slowness is important. I believe that it was Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity that discovered that time actually slows down at a rate that is inversely proportional to how much of a hurry you're in.
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Post by spokker on Jan 20, 2010 20:44:42 GMT -8
You have point there. I took a friend on the Gold Line once and he complained non-stop about Marmion Way.
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Post by wad on Jan 21, 2010 4:21:19 GMT -8
Theoretically but not with real people. The perception of slowness is important. I believe that it was Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity that discovered that time actually slows down at a rate that is inversely proportional to how much of a hurry you're in. There's also the Inverse Law of Time: The perceived value of your time is inversely proportional to its actual value.
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Post by kenalpern on Jan 21, 2010 5:28:43 GMT -8
Whether it's a slowdown on a train or a tight spot on the freeway, commuters really hate that slowdown. Real or perceived, it's a slowdown to be recognized and it's not something we expect on a rail line that moves on a ROW.
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Post by Philip on Jan 24, 2010 13:29:46 GMT -8
This may have been brought up earlier in the thread, but I would like to point everyone's attention to this page showing Philadelphia's (i.e. SEPTA'S) Rt. 101 trolley line. In this video, it passes through the town of Springfield right past Springfield High School: activerain.com/blogsview/1211603/leamy-ave-septa-101-trolley-station-springfield-paNow I haven't intensely researched this, so take my word with a grain of salt, but I have never heard of any fatality, let alone children dying, because of the existence of this train. Thanks to the stop, the crossing gates, and the crossing guards on duty, the children know to stay away from the tracks. The train also goes through several suburban neighborhoods I might add. Have there been accidents? Sure, a trolley once rammed a truck because the crossing gates were malfunctioning and didn't go down. But these happen once in a blue moon, especially since the trolley has been around for years and people have simply learned to adapt to it. NSFR, FixExpo, and any other obstructionists cannot justify spending hundreds of millions of dollars to grade separate while other areas are able to accomplish these same things with little to no problems at all. It's not about building it right, they simply don't want it. Case closed.
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Post by spokker on Jan 24, 2010 13:35:21 GMT -8
Damn, that is some old school light rail right there.
How fast does the thing go anyway?
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 24, 2010 16:00:23 GMT -8
Very nice video! It's almost the identical configuration, surroundings, and streets as Farmdale and Exposition.
In fact Expo Line will be even safer. Both platforms of the station in the video are located on one side of the crossing. The Farmdale Station will be near-side split platforms, which will require the trains to come to a complete stop before the crossing and board passengers. Also, CPUC requires the crossing gates to be down for at least 20 seconds before the train enters the crossing. And, at Farmdale, there will be pedestrian gates as well.
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Post by Philip on Jan 25, 2010 13:44:03 GMT -8
If possible, I would really like to bring this example forward in a public way to those of NFSR, FixExpo, and whoever else. Outside the public meetings, is there any other way to do so?
I did sent an email to Damien about this, but I have not heard back yet.
By the way, the stop on that trolley just before Leamy?
It's at Woodland Ave., where there is a middle school right across the street. And again, I've never heard of any problems.
I'll repeat: An at-grade light-rail train. Going through the suburbs. Passing schools. On a right-of-way.
If Philadelphia can do it, then Los Angeles can do it.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 25, 2010 14:12:10 GMT -8
Philip, All I can do is underline your comments. Similarly in Cleveland, Shaker Heights specifically, ALL the light rail stops that don't go underneath the streets are--as Gokhan put it--"near-side split platforms, which will require the trains to come to a complete stop before the crossing and board passengers." ...ALL of them. No wonder we had no need of gates and no wonder there was so little difficulty walking across the tracks to get to school.
It's such a simple concept. Take Overland and Westwood along the Expo Line Phase II ROW, ...put a near-side split platforn at Westwood Bl. to ensure safety. Gates would still be required due to the fast traffic.
Sure, tunneling under Overland would be ideal, but even if it was economically feasible, I'd want to see an Overland bridge over the train tracks. There would be plenty of distance for the train to come back up to grade and stop at Westwood.
As for at-grade street crossing there, gates would be required.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 25, 2010 15:30:40 GMT -8
The platforms at the Westwood Station are intentionally east of the street because otherwise they would be too far from Overland Ave -- a major access street for the station -- and too close to the Sepulveda Station.
The same thing is true for the Palms Station. Platforms are on the west side of the intersection so that they wouldn't be too far from Motor Ave.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 25, 2010 16:11:24 GMT -8
Isn't that the rub, that Westwood is too close to Sepulveda for a near-side split platform--the safest construction ...and that moving the platform less than 200 feet changes perception. This sure suggests that applying the near-side split platform to an Overland station might have been the way to go, with trains stopping on both sides of Overland before proceeding through the intersection. Furthermore, an Overland station would have provided equaivalent acces to the Westside Pavilion.
OK too late now to even contemplate, but Philip really got me thinking about the similarities and differences regarding systems I'm familiar with.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 25, 2010 17:08:40 GMT -8
Well, minutes add up easily, especially when you are walking. Currently you can easily walk from Overland to the platforms on the east side of Westwood, but if they were on the other side of Westwood, it would be just a little too much walk, and you would also have to wait at Westwood to cross the street.
I don't think there are really any safety concerns at Westwood. There were concerns at Farmdale because of the very high flux of students after school, roughly 800 students crossing the street within 5 minutes. It's quite unlike Westwood and any other crossing.
They also wanted to put the station at Westwood instead of Overland because of the bus connections. As a bonus it's closer to Westside Pavilion, Landmark Theaters, and Pico Blvd. The disadvantage of Westwood over Overland is that it results in worse station spacing, as far as even spacing between Palms and Sepulveda Stations are concerned.
So, the long story short, I think the current Westwood Station design is by far the most optimal in many ways.
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Post by Philip on Jan 25, 2010 23:18:19 GMT -8
I've been thinking about this some more and here is my take on the "safety issues" once and for all.
If I had a child at Dorsey High School that was killed by an oncoming Expo train because they were playing on the tracks, not paying attention, running on the tracks, or any of the above combined, I would be devastated.
But I would be angry and guilty even more. At myself.
Guilty over the fact that I, as a parent, didn't teach my child well enough to know how to be careful near the train tracks, look both ways, and so on.
I would have failed my child. It's not anyone else's responsibility that my child was ignorant, didn't know, or wasn't taught how to take care of themselves around something like a train.
It's not the Expo Construction Authority's fault that the child was killed; it's not the conductor's fault the child was killed; and IT'S NOT METRO'S FAULT THAT THE CHILD WAS KILLED.
NFSR, FixExpo, and the rest of these people need to start taking responsibility and by that, I mean putting more effort into teaching their kids how to be safe around these things rather than legislating these projects out of existence (projects that will benefit hundreds of thousands of people).
Take some responsibility.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 26, 2010 23:54:33 GMT -8
Honestly Fix Expo and NFSR have only been abusing the classic "Save the children!" scare tactics. Even on the Blue Line, there has hardly been any child fatality.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 27, 2010 0:00:04 GMT -8
Farmdale issue is almost over. Note that Farmdale needs to be the resolved within the next few months for Phase 1 to open as scheduled (circa May 2011). It's the only potential source of delay now. "WHEREFORE, Expo Authority respectfully moves for the Commission to adopt an interim decision addressing compliance with environmental review requirements applicable to the pending proposal for an at-grade Expo Rail crossing of Farmdale Avenue as described above." Motion
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Post by kenalpern on Jan 27, 2010 6:58:57 GMT -8
It bears repeating: for a project this size to open all the way to Venice/Robertson in May 2011 instead of 2010 (even if the Venice/Robertson terminus takes a few months more for completion), I think that's a pretty good pace.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 8, 2010 11:17:55 GMT -8
Here is the answer to the question everyone has been asking. When will Farmdale be approved?Agenda Mailed----Commission meeting date (10 AM)----Agenda number04/12/10---- 04/22/10----3252 Meeting to be held in Los Angeles* *April 22, 2010, meeting to be held at the Ronald Reagan State Building, 300 S. Spring St., Los Angeles. So, mark your calendars now. We should all try to go there and make our public testimonies as the opposition will cry destruction of the city by light-rail in their testimonies. Hence, we will all be there to make our public testimonies, observe the final defeat of Fix Expo and NFSR, and celebrate Expo Phase 1.
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