Anaheim Fixed Guideway Project Early Scoping

[spokker]

Updated with links to photos.

I attended the early scoping meeting for the Anaheim Fixed Guideway project today to see what was going on with it and here are some thoughts. I forgot my damn camera so I don't have any pictures.

While there was no town hall style Q&A session, I did talk to one of the project's team members. He was a very nice, older gentleman who worked on other projects in California.

They are down to four alternatives. They are maglev, PRT, people mover and monorail.

Light rail has been thrown out because they didn't want to take away lanes from cars and streetcars would be like a "bus on rails."

I told the guy that when I see stuff like maglev, monorail and PRT that I get visions of waste, that light rail can not only do the same things those modes can, but can integrate much better into the surrounding areas. It's versatility means it can be at-grade, aerial or underground if they so desired.

Also, light rail can integrate into a larger OC rail system in the future, like the long dormant Centerline and whatever Metro has up its sleeve with the Santa Ana Branch project. He said I was thinking beyond the study area, though he understood what I meant.

He said that demand is not there for light rail and that a people mover or monorail is the way to go. But demand may be there in the future if it's part of a larger system. Myself and another gentlemen, a real old timer who knew his stuff who joined mid-conversation, advocated for steel-wheel on steel-rail technology despite the fact that monorails and maglevs sound sexier.

I noticed that another plan presented for the Resort Area included widening some streets in the area from six lanes to eight lanes, or four lanes to six lanes. If the goal of this project is relieving congestion in the Resort Area, why are we widening already wide roads and inviting more cars in? Wider roads also make it more difficult for pedestrians and cyclists to get around.

Also, if light rail was bad because of grade crossings, won't more lanes invite more cars, which means more accidents?

It seems like this project is primarily for tourists coming from high speed rail to get to Disneyland. That's perfectly fine, but I was disappointed by the limited vision of Anaheim and the OCTA in not making this the start of a larger system that serves places like Santa Ana. I thought the proposed station locations were a little daft and unsurprisingly there's very little involvement from Disneyland.

I doubt monorail or maglev lines are going to be built all over Orange County. I think the money saved by going light rail could be used to build a system that serves far more people. The old timer said, "Make use with what you've got." The guy's correct and I'm starting to change my mind on another big project in California...

[James Fujita]

it's too bad that your pleas fell on deaf ears, but the response was not really that surprising, unfortunately. I really don't know what sort of kick in the pants it will take to get Orange County to take their mass transit obligations seriously. if not HSR, then what?

I actually like the idea behind ARTIC, because I think a big project like HSR deserves impressive grand entrances. and I suspect that there will be quite a few tourists on CalHSR taking the train to Disneyland.

but even so, building a monorail seems like such a waste. if not light rail, maybe HSR could spark some Metrolink expansion and upgrades?

[spokker]

There's an ARTIC scoping meeting tomorrow that I'm going to go to and report back on, and I'll remember my camera this time. The early scoping meeting for this fixed guideway project had a lot of signs that aren't online yet.

But yeah, I agree completely. I mean, it's going to great to have an easy connection from the Anaheim station to the resort area, but this thing could be a part of something bigger. There has to be a way to connect to the old Pacific Electric Santa Ana branch someday. It's so close!

And I can't believe they are even considering maglev. That's one that should have been the first to go. Maglev sounds stupid at 250 MPH, but they want to build one that will go 30-40 MPH? What a waste.

I hope PRT gets the boot soon. Anaheim, please don't be the first to try out this silly technology.

If I had to choose between monorail and people mover, I'd guess I'd go with the monorail. It kind of sort of resonates with the whole theme park atmosphere, but I will always long for a light rail line that is part of a larger network.

[nickv]

Here's an official map of possible new transit corridors that will branch from ARTIC with a link to the report:



Here's a TTC ABIE Map of the ARTIC area with an additional express bus transit line into the Inland Empire.



Note that the black "Las Vegas HSR" illustrates a possible line to Vegas via the Inland Empire. It is not, however, an endorsement of the ARTIC-Vegas Maglev project.

[spokker]

There's no proposed station on the fixed guideway route exactly at Disneyland like in the above map.

There are four alignments to be considered, all of them are kind of convoluted.

The best station would have probably been one right next to Disneyland, however none of the proposed stations are less than a good walk away from the park where people want to work and play, Disneyland. If money were no object and I had Disney's full cooperation, I would have put this station underground under the "Esplanade" between Disneyland and California Adventure.

However, the next best alternative would be the "Christmas tree" lot, the one where trams and buses load and unload on the east side of the property. But there's not even a station there.

The closest station is on the Rail Central Alternative between Anaheim Garden Walk and a parking lot on Disney Way, but I've walked that distance from Garden Walk and Disneyland and I doubt employees connecting from Metrolink want to deal with that unless they want some exercise, and some of these employees are getting plenty exercise inside the park.

In all four alignment options there's a station between Disney's 3rd gate property and the Anaheim Convention Center, which seems okay. It would have also been nice if they had planned for a section to the Anaheim Pond as well that operates on days with special events or games.

But none of these alignments get you right where the majority of people want to go, Disneyland.

[spokker]

This proposed station on the Rail North Alternative (red line), which was presented at the early scoping meeting as an alternative going forward, screams Las Vegas monorail type station placement. Too far away to be useful, yet oh so close.



The large parking lot is a planned site for a new Disney parking structure. The white line shows where people would have to walk to get to the park if a pedestrian walkway existed, which it doesn't as far as I know. The hotels are in the way (by the way, how are they going to get the monorail through there). Currently, people who park here must walk south to Disney Way and then to Harbor Blvd.

Another alternative puts a station on Disney Way, between Garden Walk and this parking lot. These are the closest proposed stations to the actual Disneyland park on any of the four alignments.

I wonder why they couldn't put a station above the tram loading area.

[dasubergeek]

The vast majority of Cast Members park in a lot across from the Katella entrance of GardenWalk and take a shuttle bus to the East Shuttle Area (what you called the "Christmas tree lot").

I don't know that I would mind light-rail, honestly, but it's frankly easier to grade-separate a monorail. And bear in mind that the only transit that currently goes from the Metrolink station to Disneyland is the little connector bus that runs twice (or maybe three times) in the morning and three times in the afternoon, to meet trains. Centerline is dead. Please put it out of your head, because it's so hated that even rail advocates here don't like it.

This would be funded out of OCTA's "Go Local" pot of funds from Measure M2. The idea of "Go Local" is to get people to and from the Metrolink lines to the cities, not to build a cohesive, county-wide light-rail system. Irvine is building a trolley; Anaheim wants a monorail; Santa Ana will get streetcars; HB is still dreaming of light rail (though how they intend to do it...). Laguna Woods wants circulator buses.

Otherwise, you're taking the 50 bus to Harbor and either having to hoof it to the park or get on a 43 bus for a couple of stops. This is why many Cast Members who commute via Metrolink actually get off at Fullerton -- from there it's a straight shot on the 43 bus down Harbor.

I don't think PRT is actually going to be studied seriously. Everyone I've talked to here (I live slightly north of the study area) calls it the monorail, because that what has been 'advertised'.

We don't really have LA-style traffic backups here -- not often, anyway. Ball and the 57 gets backed up in the afternoons, and of course anytime there's a game at the Pond or the stadium, or a concert at the Grove, there's an impressive amount of traffic on Katella, Orangewood and State College. Ball also backs up over the 5 in the mornings in summer because of the left turn to Disneyland. But other than that there is rarely bad traffic.

It isn't the easiest place to bike, incidentally, but it's far better than most of LA -- designate a couple of routes to SART (Cerritos/Douglass, for example) and you'll be good to go.

I agree that we have higher priorities (like, say, quiet zones or better yet grade separations), but the problem is that there is not the pain here with car use that there is in much of LA. Land is still relatively plentiful here, and roads were built to much later spec and have not, for the most part, outgrown their usefulness. OC is younger -- as the infrastructure ages and the cities build out, this will become more of a problem. Obviously the time to fix that is BEFORE, but there is zero political will here in the Land of the Nixon Republicans to go for something so squooshy and European as a transit system when there's no kudos for so doing.

[spokker]

The vast majority of Cast Members park in a lot across from the Katella entrance of GardenWalk and take a shuttle bus to the East Shuttle Area (what you called the "Christmas tree lot").

I know, I did it for a year, and it sucks. You get to work, and you're still not at work.

As for light rail, I couldn't care less if people here hate Centerline. I understand the problems with Centerline. I'm not saying let's build it as it was proposed, but a better version. Hell, change the name if it's a PR thing.

Redlands will have light rail before OC. That's pathetic.

[dasubergeek]

Aug 3, 2009 16:40:23 GMT -8 spokker said:

The vast majority of Cast Members park in a lot across from the Katella entrance of GardenWalk and take a shuttle bus to the East Shuttle Area (what you called the "Christmas tree lot").

I know, I did it for a year, and it sucks. You get to work, and you're still not at work.

As for light rail, I couldn't care less if people here hate Centerline. I understand the problems with Centerline. I'm not saying let's build it as it was proposed, but a better version. Hell, change the name if it's a PR thing.

Redlands will have light rail before OC. That's pathetic.

My point about the Katella parking was that as a transit terminus, it's not perfect but it's not like it's out at the 5 and Disney Way or something. If Disney wanted to take advantage of it, they could send trams to the transit station. I still would prefer the station to be on Harbor near the East Shuttle Area, but there's a distinct lack of real estate there.

I just don't see the big difference between light rail and a monorail as design alternatives. As long as something gets built and it's extensible, that's the important part. Monorail is extensible, as is light rail. PRT is a joke and I hope to God they're only considering it so they can look like they're being forward-thinking.

As for your troll about Redlands getting light rail first, Redlands has more traffic pain than OC. Like it or lump it, OC has invested more in freeways and it shows -- it is very easy to get from one end of the county to the other on a freeway. The IE has not done the same investment. So it wouldn't surprise me that the IE would get rail first.

[spokker]

You really think that's a troll? Yikes.

[James Fujita]

it hurts to hear it, but Orange County really is the black hole of rail transit. lots of really good ideas come in, but nothing good ever comes of it.

I did a couple of Google searches and found that the Irvine streetcar project is dead, which means that the great hope for anything resembling light rail moves to Santa Ana, and I have to say I'm not impressed with their trolley project.

and then you look at the blogs and (almost) everybody there is cynical, with most comments wanting either Everything for Freeways or Build Absolutely Nothing for Anybody Anywhere. and then, there's the race-baiting, anti-immigrant, "OMG gangs are going to ride it" fearmongering, and I hate fearmongering in all its forms...

I love the idea of connecting the Green Line to Santa Ana, but I don't see that happening, at least not in the atmosphere of hate that OC has, and I know there's a rail line of some sort that heads south to Huntington Beach, but I don't see that happening, either.

the Anaheim connector will probably be a monorail. it'll probably be a repeat of the Las Vegas monorail, which is useless, and it'll provide just enough of a ride for the doubters, deniers and haters to say "I Told You So"

I do hope that Orange County upgrades Metrolink to the point that all that'll be left to do is electrify it.

I also see on the Redlands Web site that the light rail idea is for real. I hope they go for it.

[kenalpern]

Well, I don't think that was a troll, but different folks define things differently (of course).

My own $.02 is that we are ONLY going to trains in the O.C. that are Metrolink and CAHSR for the next 10-20 years. If Disney wants to have a monorail connection, that's fine, but I just don't think that the OCTA will have much more with respect to mass transit than bus service and the aforementioned technologies.

I do NOT believe that the Eastside LRT will do much to stir any reconsideration in the eyes of those in the O.C. (either in the power circles or just the general public), because they can't relate to the Eastside (sorry, but that's the painful truth). For different reasons, I'm not sure that the Wilshire Subway will relate to Orange County residents, either.

However, the Expo Line, the Foothill Gold Line, and a Green Line to LAX will probably be much more motivating to encourage Orange County residents to invest in mass transit like we're seeing in L.A. County. Those are areas and technologies that Orange County residents can probably relate to more, and will serve their needs better if they can better access the greater region. Perhaps CAHSR will also galvanize Orange County in that direction as well.

[spokker]

I agree, Ken. We can't even get our rapid bus program going. I'm just saying, if OC were more conducive to light rail, this is what I would do.

I understand the reality of the situation as much as anyone.

[darrell]

Seriously, this may be a rare good application of Bombardier (Las Vegas) monorail technology. It's rather short, entirely aerial, there isn't an at-grade light rail system, and come on, isn't it about time the monorail extended beyond the park to actually be useful for transportation like in Disney World?

(OCTA photo)

[spokker]

Walt Disney World has not built a monorail expansion since the late 80s due to cost. They opted to go with buses to provide transportation around the resort.

In Walt Disney World the monorail drops you off about 400 feet away from The Magic Kingdom. The Anaheim Monorail will drop you off about 3,000 feet away from Disneyland. If the Rail North alternative is adopted add on another 500 feet.

At its worst, the typical Las Vegas monorail station is about 3,000 feet away from the strip, and about 800 feet at its best. This has been a common complaint.

This sucks for day trippers who just want to get to the park as fast as possible, and employees who work there. But there are also tourists who want to check into their hotels first. All alignments completely miss the Disneyland Hotel and the Paradise Pier Hotel.

What the monorail will be great for is getting to the proposed third gate and perhaps the Anaheim Convention Center. Even if light rail was chosen there are still problems with the alignment.

[joequality]

Aug 4, 2009 15:19:44 GMT -8 James Fujita said:

and then you look at the blogs and (almost) everybody there is cynical, with most comments wanting either Everything for Freeways or Build Absolutely Nothing for Anybody Anywhere. and then, there's the race-baiting, anti-immigrant, "OMG gangs are going to ride it" fearmongering, and I hate fearmongering in all its forms...

I recently read a small article about the Orangeline Maglev from Anaheim (or Irvine?) to Palmdale, and 90% of the comments were extremely negative or ignorant, some of which saying criminals will ride from Palmdale to OC. The other ones failed to realize the incredibly simple fact that there would be other stops in between the two cities - duh!
I agree that ideally they might as well extend the existing monorail at Disneyland.

[spokker]

The existing monorail at Disneyland is fun, but it's not a mass transit solution. It was an experiment and does not have the capacity to do any real people moving except between the park and the Disneyland Hotel. You can't even stand up straight in the monorail.

Also, expanding it into the City of Anaheim is not a liability that Disney does not want. They are not paying for or cooperating with the Fixed Guideway project.

Logistically it does not work. The Disneyland Monorail is technically inside the park. You need park admission to ride it.

[kenalpern]

Having just been to DisneyWorld (and a frightening 15-20 minutes from being in the recent monorail accident with my family), I can assure you that any monorail that doesn't access Disneyland's Magic Kingdom, the hotels and/or Downtown Disney is a big, fat LOSER.

It was really suh-weet (!!!) to stay at the Contemporary Hotel in DisneyWorld (ridiculous hotel prices and all) but which had a monorail stop.

The 400 foot distance between DisneyWorld and the monorail station was a wee bit long, but not a problem that my wife or son (who don't really notice these things like I do--hence my valuing their opinions more than others like myself who focus too much on these details). In other words, although I noticed it was slightly long, it was fine for all the non-transit geek types who loved it just FINE.

Truly a statement on multiple levels was the DisneyWorld Transportation Center that linked two nonconnecting monorails (one to the Magic Kingdom and the three closest hotel resorts, and one to/from Epcot). Everything else was with buses.

I truly like the idea of upgrading the Disneyland monorail to the standable, comfortable, higher-capacity trains that DisneyWorld has, with stops at the hotels and Downtown Disney and any adjacent regional transportation center.

Any other idea is just a statement that monorail isn't ready for primetime even in its most prominent showcase location.

[darrell]

Aug 5, 2009 8:18:43 GMT -8 darrell said:

isn't it about time the monorail extended beyond the park to actually be useful for transportation like in Disney World?

I should clarify, I didn't mean literally run the existing Disneyland monorail to ARTIC or rebuild it in the park to Las Vegas' transit-grade standard, rather to extend the concept of the monorail via a new line serving the entrance of the park.

Right on, Ken, this line needs stations conveniently close to the Disneyland and the Anaheim Convention Center entrances. Should be easy to do with a monorail, right?

[spokker]

It should be easy to do, darrell, but it isn't one of the ideas being presented. The ARTIC monorail does not go directly to Disneyland, Downtown Disney or the Disney hotels. It goes to, uhm, GardenWalk, an under-performing outdoor mall. And it isn't even that great of a mall.

There is a proposed station, however, in a convenient spot for the third theme park in Anaheim, if it's built.

[kenalpern]

This would definitely be a good time for Disney, CAHSR, the ARTIC folks and the greater community to figure out how the public and private sectors can work together to make a comprehensive connectivity plan for the 21st century. Darrell and spokker, I agree with your points (as usual).

Overall, the cash-paying public at DisneyWorld thinks those monorails ROCK, and I think they'd like something similar to it at Disneyland. I strongly believe this could benefit the economy and our quality of life if folks could remotely access Disneyland and other Anaheim attractions once that CAHSR is built.

I don't know if we'll see anything from Vegas to Anaheim...but I could easily see a gigantic missed opportunity if the powers that be don't get on board. It would be another case of what we saw when Universal Studios BLEW IT with respect to a good connection to the Red Line Subway.

[spokker]

I've become increasingly opposed to the Anaheim Fixed-Guideway Project. Here is a custom map on Google Maps illustrating some of my thoughts on a rapid bus line on Katella Ave. vs the Fixed-Guideway project. I don't think the fixed-guideway is worth it.

Let me know what you think.