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Post by James Fujita on Jul 22, 2011 14:50:51 GMT -8
Let me add to what most comments here have said:
I really hope that they keep the streetcar away from Union Station. Union Station has enough links already, and the longer the route is, the less frequent it will likely be, unless they have dozens of streetcars.
The streetcar will link up with the Red Line and the Blue Line, just not at LAUS. The Regional Connector ought to handle fast trips between Union Station and LACC, Gold Line already handles LAUS to Little Tokyo.
EDIT: BTW, the newest EIR info. shows the Regional Connector directly behind the L.A. Times, with two exits. One of those two would be the streetcar link.
As a Little Tokyo fan, linking LT into the streetcar sounds tempting, but even that wouldn't be necessary. The initial streetcar route ought to be Broadway, Bunker Hill, and down to L.A. Live/ Staples Center. The key is Broadway, and I'm kinda disappointed that all of the streets would be one-way, with the possible exception of climbing First Street.
And a Staples Center route would work fine. People in full cosplay costume were walking between L.A. Live/ Staples Center and the convention center, people visiting for other non-comic otaku conventions ought to be able to go the distance.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Jul 22, 2011 14:59:19 GMT -8
Segment A: This segment could be interesting, because while both A4 and A7 have advanced they are radically different in what they would do.
On one hand, with A4, the streetcar would run through Bunker hill and the Grand Avenue Project. With this area poised to take off later this decade, this would serve an emerging part of downtown. But with A7, you not only immediately open opportunities for future extensions, but create a route towards Union Station.
In my opinion, A4 over A7. If the Broadway Streetcar proves to be a success, then we can expand it to serve the Arts District and more of the Fashion District.
Segment B: They've advanced both alternatives, but, to me, B2 wins in the end because it increases the route's coverage by being 2 blocks away from the southbound Broadway leg.
Segment C: Advancing C1 is just common sense. It likely will cost more, but serves a much larger portion of south park and runs right along Figueroa for much of the way.
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on Jul 22, 2011 16:12:24 GMT -8
I like the south on Broadway, west on Pico, north on Figueroa, east on 9th St, north on Hill St, west on 5th St, north on Grand, east on 1st St back to Broadway completes the loop. That's effectively A4, B1, C1. It'll be a pearl necklace containing MOCA, Walt Disney Hall, the future Broad Museum, Metro Rail (Pico, Pershin Sq, Civic Ctr), LA Live, Staples, Convention Center, Broadway Theater district redevelopment, Ralph's grocery store, new Civic Center Park, etc Here's the Locally Preferred Alternative map for the meeting next week
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Post by jeisenbe on Jul 23, 2011 20:59:58 GMT -8
Segment B: They've advanced both alternatives, but, to me, B2 wins in the end because it increases the route's coverage by being 2 blocks away from the southbound Broadway leg. Segment C: Advancing C1 is just common sense. It likely will cost more, but serves a much larger portion of south park and runs right along Figueroa for much of the way. There is a major error in your thinking. Moving one direction of the alignment 1 block west does NOT "increase coverage". It increases the minimum walk distance (now you have to walk two blocks from broadway on the way home), and does NOT increase the area within a 5 minute average walk of a station. Keeping both directions on one street (as with all of our light rail lines) is best. A 1 block wide couplet is okay but not great. A two block wide couplet is idiotic.
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 25, 2011 14:52:34 GMT -8
I have to agree with Jeisenbe.
For whatever reason, the planners of the streetcar don't seem to think that bi-directional streetcars would be politically or physically possible. Maybe they're worried about a backlash from car drivers, and admittedly 11th Street isn't all that wide and is already one-way only.
Given the choices that we have been given, and assuming that we can't force them to go both ways on Broadway, then the Broadway/ Hill couplet makes the most sense. At the very least, Grand Central Market has entrances on both Hill and Broadway, so a "Grand Central" station is possible ;D
Personally, I'd like to see the A6 route, using First Street to climb and descend Bunker Hill. That would have a short stretch of bi-drectional streetcar traffic. Links to the Red Line at 1st/ Hill and to the Regional Connector at 2nd/ Broadway.
On the south end, the 11th Street route to avoid any possible conflict with the Blue Line.
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on Jul 25, 2011 19:02:38 GMT -8
To be honest, I'm not terribly concerned with the streetcar possibly crossing the Blue Line tracks any more, it'll be no worse than any of the buses that cross the tracks today. The nature of streetcars is a deal like buses anyway, with no special treatment other than the comforts and capacity of rail travel. The Blue Line as a commuter line loses nothing and the streetcar gains nothing over the traffic that already crosses there. Of course, there will be Automatic Train Control there to assist in avoiding accidents. Interesting points about the one-street versus two-street couplets: I think I like Hill and Broadway as a north-south couplet, both very interesting streets as is, with immense potential. So I change my answer.
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Post by transitfan on Jul 26, 2011 7:34:21 GMT -8
To be honest, I'm not terribly concerned with the streetcar possibly crossing the Blue Line tracks any more, it'll be no worse than any of the buses that cross the tracks today. The nature of streetcars is a deal like buses anyway, with no special treatment other than the comforts and capacity of rail travel. The Blue Line as a commuter line loses nothing and the streetcar gains nothing over the traffic that already crosses there. Of course, there will be Automatic Train Control there to assist in avoiding accidents. i could be mistaken, but perhaps the concern to avoid crossing the Blue Line has to do with the special work (on both the tracks and the overhead wires) that would entail from such a crossing, adding expense to the project.
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 26, 2011 15:03:34 GMT -8
For me, it's a couple of things. One is the construction. It will be more elaborate to build the crossing with the Blue Line at Pico station. Also, I weigh the potential costs/ benefits and I don't see Pico as being that much more better than 11th. For all practical terms and purposes, L.A. Live/ Staples Center/ Nokia Theater/ Los Angeles Convention Center often operates as one single unit (this is one reason why I'm not particularly worried about AEG and the NFL stadium... they have their foot in the door at LACC already). At Anime Expo, it was obvious that people were finding ways to wander from South Hall of LACC over to Nokia Plaza with no problem whatsoever. A station at the corner of Pico/Fig will be a little better than 11th/Fig for South Hall, but the difference isn't worth the extra cost. Looking east of the convention center, 11th Street is looking very streetcar-ready to me. One-way in the right direction, with relatively new development in the neighborhood.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 26, 2011 15:09:37 GMT -8
How many more Blue Line/Expo Line weekend closures will we need with this streetcar? Blue Line passengers just had 2 years of numerous weekend closures for Expo Line closure and 30 minute evening headways nearly every weeknight. If we build on Pico, this will be a concern.
Everybody was concerned with a single weekend on the 405, but what about the 80,000 daily Blue Line passengers?
Anyways, as a resident in South Park, I would also recommend 11th street. It's small enough and would like nice heading towards LA Live! from Broadway. Pico just feels a little too "far south".
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on Jul 26, 2011 16:05:58 GMT -8
What about access to LA Convention Center?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 26, 2011 16:30:28 GMT -8
What about access to LA Convention Center? 12th street is more central between Staples Center/LA Live! and Convention Center. Yes, Pico is better for the Convention Center, but it's inconvenient for LA Live! and where most of the loft/condo residences are, which is primarily north of 12th street. 11th street is much better for LA Live! and Staples Center. Staples Center has entrances on 11th and 12th streets. Pico has an etrance for the Convention Center only. Two major attractions at 11th street over Pico and more residences are NORTH of 12th street, so Pico is getting far south. 11th street wins. This is like the Constellation vs. Santa Monica boulevard debate. 11th street is reasonably more convenient for more people. Walk the streets during convention center or evening/LA Live! time and you'll see........
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Post by rubbertoe on Jul 26, 2011 17:29:40 GMT -8
The Pico route will also stop at both the convention center and LA Live. 11th street serves LA Live and Staples, but misses the convention center. I think it comes down to: 1) what is the anticipated level of use along the extended alignment of the Pico route versus the 11th street route, 2) how many conventions per year are held at the convention center, 3) the possible football stadium will be well served by the 11th street stop on the corner. I would be happy with either. I think the redevelopment opportunities along Broadway, coupled with being fed from the other rail lines, will make it into a hit of ginormous proportions. One thing is for sure. With Staples, LA Live and the possible stadium all feeding into a single streetcar stop on 11th, or even 2 if the Pico route is chosen, exclusive travel lanes going North will be required at a minimum, at least till you get to the Red Line stop if it goes up Hill. Given the low capacity of a street car, and the volume of people in that area, having those streetcars fighting to move in vehicle traffic is beyond insane. The Pico route would cause those going to Staples and/or LA Live to go further South than needed, which translates into time. Later expansion of the route is always possible, but you would want to get it right the first time since changing to Pico later would require making the 11th street tracks obsolete, unless you ran multiple services (core route versus expanded route for example). Thinking ahead is your friend, as we have all come to realize over time RT
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 26, 2011 18:09:03 GMT -8
The distance between the Los Angeles Convention Center and Staples Center is NOT THAT FAR. I spent the beginning of this month wandering back and forth between the two. You can enter the convention center from the north end, next door to Staples Center. It's just the south end that's closer to Pico. (And Nokia Theater gets used for convention events as well.) The existing Blue Line Pico station would pick up a lot of convention center traffic, especially once the Regional Connector gets built. Convention hotels aren't on Broadway, they are on the Regional Connector route. [EDIT: That's not to say that it doesn't already get plenty of convention traffic... ]
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Post by rubbertoe on Jul 26, 2011 18:13:02 GMT -8
The existing Blue Line Pico station would pick up a lot of convention center traffic, especially once the Regional Connector gets built. Convention hotels aren't on Broadway, they are on the Regional Connector route. Excellent point. If you are on light rail and going to the convention center, you just get on/off at Pico station.
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Post by masonite on Jul 26, 2011 18:56:13 GMT -8
The existing Blue Line Pico station would pick up a lot of convention center traffic, especially once the Regional Connector gets built. Convention hotels aren't on Broadway, they are on the Regional Connector route. Excellent point. If you are on light rail and going to the convention center, you just get on/off at Pico station. Staples Center is on what was convention center property as it replaced the old North Hall. In one spot, the arena is only about 30-40 yards from the current convention hall.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 26, 2011 19:07:38 GMT -8
Let's not put too much faith into Convention Center ridership. Yes, it's a destination, but don't discount Staples Center, LA Live!, JW Marriot, Hotel Figueroa, etc.. and then the multiple residences on 9th, Olympic, 11th and 12th.
There are barely any residences or any entertainment/restaurants on Pico east of Figueroa. It's a dead zone. Why bother? The action is on the other streets I mentioned WITH restaurants and entertainment. Pico is a dead street east of Figueroa. Take it from me, I live at 9th and Flower!!! We don't venture out to Pico/Flower....the furthest south is 12th/Flower. By diverting to Pico you are ignoring the convenience of the residents at Market Lofts, Skyline, Met Lofts, The Met, South, Luma, Evo, etc...
Take a ride in the MIDDLE of South Park, which is 11th/12th street. Pico is a southern border. There are more people WALKING between 7th/Figueroa to LA Convention Center than from anywhere on Pico street! Plus, as James mentioned, passengers from Blue Line will already take the existing Pico station. It's NO NEED to go to Pico for the streetcar. This should stay north of 12th street.
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Post by James Fujita on Jul 27, 2011 0:43:30 GMT -8
Of course the convention center isn't the only reason to send the streetcar down that direction, but it has certainly been a key part of the drive to have streetcars in downtown in the first place. And when I think of the convention center, I typically include L.A. Live, the JW Marriott, Nokia Theater, Staples Center. Convention planners include these things, either as extra venues for convention events or as extra things to do in the surrounding area. For what it's worth, Pico Station is nearly as far from the LACC South Hall entrance as a 11th/Figueroa station for L.A. Live/ LACC would be. And 11th/ Figueroa would be closer to the LACC West Hall entrance. (And once inside, it's an easy, A/C bridge walk over Pico to the South Hall.)
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 27, 2011 6:21:14 GMT -8
I'm not denying that people at LA Live/Staples/Marriott, etc.. will be served by the northbound trolley anyways, but to go all the way south to Pico is a diversion. 12th or 11th street can adequately be the southern terminus. Pico just seems "out there" and is a dead zone east of
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Post by carter on Jul 27, 2011 6:43:28 GMT -8
I'm not denying that people at LA Live/Staples/Marriott, etc.. will be served by the northbound trolley anyways, but to go all the way south to Pico is a diversion. 12th or 11th street can adequately be the southern terminus. Pico just seems "out there" and is a dead zone east of And then using Pico also brings up again the issue of running streetcar tracks across the Blue and Expo and future RC tracks. That seems like an operational headache that everyone wants to avoid.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jul 27, 2011 7:59:32 GMT -8
It's really not that big of a deal. A bit more difficult to organize, but nothing that should affect route planning. It's done all the time and even in our fair city in times past. Check out the corner of 7th and Broadway.
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Post by bzcat on Jul 27, 2011 10:05:52 GMT -8
Pico is full of warehouses and empty buildings. 11th/12th are full of condos, lofts, and business. Putting the streetcar on Pico is like putting the subway station next to a golf course. I don't know why we even debate this issue on this board
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 27, 2011 10:23:30 GMT -8
Pico is full of warehouses and empty buildings. 11th/12th are full of condos, lofts, and business. Putting the streetcar on Pico is like putting the subway station next to a golf course. I don't know why we even debate this issue on this board Thank you! Hence why I said this is like Constellation v. SaMo boulevard debate. Yes Pico (SaMo boulevard) sound like great streets and are in other districts, but in the case of this part of downtown (Century City), 11th street (Constellation) is the more PRACTICAL street.
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Post by Quixote on Jul 27, 2011 12:06:13 GMT -8
Completely disagree about Pico. It provides a better connection to the LACC and a golden opportunity to stretch development all the way down to the 10 Freeway (see Portland's Pearl District). Looking only at the status quo is quite shortsighted.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Jul 27, 2011 12:34:07 GMT -8
Well to be fair, the Pico alignment at least runs right next to the Blue Line station. This way both ends (NE and SW) of the streetcar have transfer access to two separate systems of the Metro rail - both the Purple/Red HRT to the north (albeit a block away), and the Blue line LRT to the south. But it seems like everyone thinks that 11th street is better. There is a major error in your thinking. Moving one direction of the alignment 1 block west does NOT "increase coverage". It increases the minimum walk distance (now you have to walk two blocks from broadway on the way home), and does NOT increase the area within a 5 minute average walk of a station. Keeping both directions on one street (as with all of our light rail lines) is best. A 1 block wide couplet is okay but not great. A two block wide couplet is idiotic. So? Doesn't the Blue Line through Long beach only run in one direction? And seriously, all I was trying to do was add thoughts to the thread; not to intentionally hit nerves. Do not act childish in your rhetoric. There is absolutely NO need for it.
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Post by Quixote on Jul 27, 2011 12:57:14 GMT -8
There's also the California Hospital Medical Center and the Fashion District. Bypassing Pico means bypassing JOBS.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 27, 2011 13:37:38 GMT -8
There's also the California Hospital Medical Center and the Fashion District. Bypassing Pico means bypassing JOBS. Do you live in downtown LA? Olympic boulevard is considered central to Fashion District. Santee Alley is between Olympic to 12th street. Pico boulevard is a true worthless diversion. Again, it sounds like a great street name, but let's make the streetcar run the more efficient route, which is no further south than 11th or 12th street.
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Post by bzcat on Jul 27, 2011 15:11:13 GMT -8
Completely disagree about Pico. It provides a better connection to the LACC and a golden opportunity to stretch development all the way down to the 10 Freeway (see Portland's Pearl District). Looking only at the status quo is quite shortsighted. I think you need to go down there and have a look see. LACC is like 4 miles away on Vermont/Santa Monica and it already has a fancy subway station. And why would you bank the project on hope and prayer for redeveloping warehouses and parking garages on Pico when 11th street has already gone thru just such redevelopment? There's also the California Hospital Medical Center and the Fashion District. Bypassing Pico means bypassing JOBS. The hospital is within reasonable walking distance from Pico station as is. And Pico/Figueroa is no where near the Fashion District! And besides, the streetcar actually goes right down Broadway/9th... you know... where the "JOBS!" and California Mart/Fashion District are located (it goes east towards Santee from there). And I could turn around your statement just as easily... Bypassing 11th Street means bypassing dense residential areas!
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jul 27, 2011 16:05:08 GMT -8
Completely disagree about Pico. It provides a better connection to the LACC and a golden opportunity to stretch development all the way down to the 10 Freeway (see Portland's Pearl District). LACC is like 4 miles away on Vermont/Santa Monica and it already has a fancy subway station. I think he means LACC = Los Angeles Convention Center
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Post by jdrcrasher on Jul 27, 2011 16:06:16 GMT -8
Isn't the 12th street option not among the "recommended" routes?
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Post by Quixote on Jul 27, 2011 16:25:10 GMT -8
There's also the California Hospital Medical Center and the Fashion District. Bypassing Pico means bypassing JOBS. Do you live in downtown LA? Olympic boulevard is considered central to Fashion District. Santee Alley is between Olympic to 12th street. Pico boulevard is a true worthless diversion. Again, it sounds like a great street name, but let's make the streetcar run the more efficient route, which is no further south than 11th or 12th street. Apparently you're unaware of just how large the Fashion District is. It stretches all the way down to the 10 Freeway, Pico being one of many streets bustling with activity.
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