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Post by metrocenter on Jan 12, 2010 9:06:20 GMT -8
Palms is very dense, and as Gokhan said, there will be great demand for Expo in Palms. Any way you look at it, the stations at National/Palms, Westwood, and Sepulveda are going to be very busy stations.
These stations will be particularly busy because they will be both starting nodes (taking residents from the area) and ending nodes (with transfers to UCLA and Century City) during the rush hours.
Not to mention people headed for the Apple Pan.
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adamv
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by adamv on Jan 12, 2010 9:20:45 GMT -8
Not to mention people headed for the Apple Pan. If I had my way, there would be an underground stop right underneath the Apple Pan, with an elevator that took you right to the front door.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 12, 2010 18:37:17 GMT -8
This Cheviot resident can't wait to be able to board the train at Palms/National, take it to the end of the line in Santa Monica, have dinner at some great restaurant, walk along the beach ...and eventually get back on the train, reasonably well-soused, with my only worry that we can remember to get off the train at Palms to walk home! ...This is what I call "smart (use of the) rail!"
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 12, 2010 20:09:57 GMT -8
This Cheviot resident can't wait to be able to board the train at Palms/National, take it to the end of the line in Santa Monica, have dinner at some great restaurant, walk along the beach ...and eventually get back on the train, reasonably well-soused, with my only worry that we can remember to get off the train at Palms to walk home! ...This is what I call "smart (use of the) rail!" For them smart currently means no... I guess Cheviot Hills will be served by two stations: Westwood and Palms/National. The former is closer to the northwest Cheviot Hills and the latter to the southeast. I myself am currently living in Palms 0.35 miles (7-minute-walk) from the Palms/National Station, which is rather good. Here is a song dedicated to the Neighbors for Smart Rail/Fix Expo crazies and to us, who are being driven crazy by them: These lyrics of Crazy Train "Crazy, but that's how it goes Millions of people living as foes Maybe it's not too late To learn how to love And forget how to hate"and the remaining lyrics describe our familiar Neighbors for Smart Rail and Fix Expo friends very well.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 12, 2010 23:13:35 GMT -8
Oddly, despite the shots from the "Hills" --Cheviot that is, the distance to the Westwood station is significant. It works for Rancho Park, but Cheviot is a lot farther. ...And the Palms station will be easy access only for those within a few blocks. So I've never quite understood the belly-cahing about rail that skirts the community and offers only hoofers like my family to make good use of it. Oh well, ...waiting with baited breath.
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Post by kenalpern on Jan 13, 2010 6:54:09 GMT -8
I think that, as time goes by, we'll see that Rancho Park is infinitely more affected by the Expo Line than Cheviot Hills, and that the Palms/National station will be more popular with Cheviot Hills residents and Castle Heights residents than a lot of folks think. Perhaps we'll need more amenities (including parking, if the need exists, to be provided by the private or public sectors) for the Palms/National station in years to come if it's a big hit.
(Frankly, when the dust settles and the smoke clears, I think that all of these Westside stations will be really popular)
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 13, 2010 9:28:59 GMT -8
I think that, as time goes by, we'll see that Rancho Park is infinitely more affected by the Expo Line than Cheviot Hills... According to wiki, Rancho Park extends all the way to Manning Avenue. Thus, Expo doesn't even go through Cheviot Hills. Perhaps we'll need more amenities (including parking, if the need exists, to be provided by the private or public sectors) for the Palms/National station in years to come if it's a big hit. I envision the three stations in the area (Sepulveda, Westwood, Palms) serving fairly distinct functions: - Sepulveda: bus transfers, park-and-ride, taxis.
- Westwood: pedestrians, taxis.
- Palms: pedestrians, bus transfers, taxis, park-and-ride.
Obviously, the design of park-and-ride facilities is a sensitive subject. Nobody wants to encourage traffic, especially where there is already so much traffic. Thoughts?
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 13, 2010 9:29:47 GMT -8
Forgive my ignorance, this is probably common knowledge. Will the Expo/Westwood Station be accessible from Overland? Or will this be one of those stations that force you to enter/exit on one side only?
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 13, 2010 9:53:51 GMT -8
Yes, exactly, the "Westwood - Overland" station will be accessible from both Westwood and Overland. That's why it was put between Westwood and Overland. There will be a signalized pedestrian and bicycle crossing adjacent to the crossing gates on Overland. I like to call this station "Westwood - Overland," rather than Westwood, as it will serve both major streets, greatly expanding its usefulness. Westwood - Overland Station is closer to more parts of Cheviot Hills than the Palms/National Station. The stations are also at different elevations and elevation of the Westwood - Overland Station is also closer to the elevation of Cheviot Hills. Palms/National sits at a significantly lower elevation, making pedestian access more difficult. Here is the official map of Cheviot Hills: Also, the most significant bus-transfer station would be the Westwood - Overland Station, as the Westwood is the biggest bus route in the Westside, with already almost half-dozen different bus lines running through it and adjacent Pico Blvd. There is currently a single bus on Overland as well. This station is also noticeably closer to Century City than the Palms/National Station, and it's at the same elevation as Century City. Note that access on Motor Ave and other collector streets in Cheviot Hills is restricted, making the Century City access from the Palms/National Station even more difficult.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 13, 2010 10:39:46 GMT -8
Doubtful that the Westwood station could have an entrance and exit on one side (Westwood); that would truly cut off access to the east. ...And yes, Rancho Park extends at least to Manning. (But I've never imagined the stretch East of Manning, bounded also by Butterfield, Patricia, and Pico as Cheviot.) I just wonder how many from Western Cheviot would be willing to walk a half mile minimum to the Westwood station. Palms on the other hand is no more than a quarter of a mile for many Cheviot residents and I imagine that the proximity will make the area even more desirable.
Regarding a "park and ride" for the Palms/National station, ...I understand the logic, but with National so misshapen between Overland and Palms, and the traffic at Palms / National already quite bad at rush hour, I'm hoping that the Venice station with absorb the lion's share of parking and leave Palms/National as strictly a neighborhood station.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 13, 2010 10:53:36 GMT -8
Note that the map just posted is from the "Cheviot Howeowners Assoc." The Cheviot Hills Home Owners Assoc., as musch as they would like to, does not define Cheviot Hills which is unincorporate and somewhat larger. Realtors typically ininclude Cheviot Country Club Estates--which is the section closer to Palms-National.
It may be true that "access on Motor Ave and other collector streets in Cheviot Hills is restricted, making the Century City access from the Palms/National Station even more difficult," but the restrictions amount to bumps and stop signs and a narrowing Motor and considering the traffic, I'd rather go through Cheviot any day than attempt to go from Pico & Overland to Century City. The map above is propagandized to communicate "don't go here!" and doesn't convey the reality of open side streets that can feed to Motor just before the rec center--I drive through this area every day without difficulty! The map also suggests a "closed" area when Cheviot is nothing more than a neighborhood of Los Angeles--no different from Palms or Beverywood or Rancho Park.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 13, 2010 11:58:18 GMT -8
The attached map depicts what I believe are the generally understood boundaries of Cheviot Hills (and Rancho Park) understood by realtors rather than the home owner's assoc. assertion. Not that here, CH emerges as much farther from Westwood/Overland than from Palms/National, although Gokhan is correct that the Palms/National station wll be at alower elevation. Nonetheless, with rolling hills throughout CH, the lower elevation may prove no impediment for access. Attachments:
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 13, 2010 12:55:10 GMT -8
Well, I drive on Motor Ave everday without difficulty as well. But this is during non-rush hour. During rush hour Motor Ave is very slow, taking about half hour between National and Pico. Certainly the traffic-calming measures have a lot to do with that. Also, before 10 AM in the morning, left and right turns onto Motor northbound from National are not permitted, and there are cops waiting to ticket you near the Expo railroad bridge at Motor. In Los Angeles the neighborhood boundaries are officially determined by their neighborhood councils and homeowners' asscoiations. But rajobs is right that these boundaries may not correspond to historical or geographic boundaries. In fact our Dr. Ken Alpern, who lives in Westside Village, has fought hard to keep it separate from Palms; although, historically it's part of Palms. He can tell more about the war over Westside Village between Palms and Mar Vista. Here is a 1939 WPA land-use map of Palms and Cheviot Hills:
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 13, 2010 14:02:45 GMT -8
That map provided by the Cheviot Hills HOA shows the boundaries of the HOA, not of the neighborhood. Notice their map excludes all of Cheviot Hills east of Queensbury, to Beverwil/Castle Heights.
The only people that could possibly have any need for mitigation are those very close to the rail. Nobody east of Manning Avenue (IOW, nobody in Cheviot Hills) will be even remotely affected by Expo.
For this reason I take the Cheviot Hills HOA's position with a grain of salt. They represent not Cheviot Hills, but a little wealthy enclave made up of a few hundred homes. Those near the ROW will be easily and sufficiently mitigated with soundwalls. If they want anything else, they will have to sue.
Anyway, although I have traveled through the area many times, I definitely will defer to locals who know the area better than me.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 13, 2010 14:28:40 GMT -8
I agree entirely with metrocenter, "nobody east of Manning will be even remotely affected by Expo." It should become a mantra.
I've lived in Cheviot since the late 80s. The opposition to rail makes no sense to me, nor neighbors I've spoken with. It's an outspoken bunch that opposes a rail adjacent to Palms and Rancho Park (not Cheviot). Additionally, the few older folks I've run into, who were here before the line stopped operating in '53, remember it fondly and look forward to the train's return.
The future holds the vision of a connected city with ease of movement, not a city of walled off enclaves, because increasing density is inevitable and the exhaust of motor vehicles must not be.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 13, 2010 14:46:00 GMT -8
It's absolutely correct that this is not even "not in my backyard" but "not anywhere near me" opposition. Colleen Mason Heller of Cheviot Hills, who is the most hardcore opponent from Cheviot Hills, lives a quarter mile from the right-of-way. Terri Tippit, founder and head of Neighbors for Smart Rail, lives miles away from the line in her West of Westwood neighborhood. And Mike Eveloff, another hardcore opponent and one of the leaders of NFSR as Terri and Colleen, also lives about a mile away in Tract 7260, which is near Pico Blvd by Century City. For them it's some sort of bigotry, where their neighborhood must be protected against everybody and everything. The mere thought of someone else who might be visiting or utilizing their neihgborhood drives them crazy.
As far as the neighborhood boundaries are concerned, there are also Beverlywood and Castle Heights in that single-family residential area, and what is shown as Cheviot Hills in Google Maps might likely be part of Beverlywood or Castle Heights.
In fact, if they redrew the boundaries by a couple of hundred feet, I would be in Cheviot Hills. LOL
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 13, 2010 16:29:44 GMT -8
I would guess that some people just object philosophically to using "their tax dollars" for public transit. They are not just anti-Expo, but anti-rail: they see Expo as the latest battlefield against what they consider the Metro boondoggle system.
These anti-rail people are driven more by anger and opinions than by facts and logic. This is a very good thing, since it means, from a legal standpoint, their arguments are inherently weaker.
Metro/Expo, on the other hand, is in a good position because it is mandated by legislation to provide transit to the public, in an environmentally friendly way. It would be hard to argue that Expo on the ROW is not an unparalleled opportunity to improve L.A.'s transit system. So as long as Metro is being cooperative with respect to mitigations, it is up to the anti-rail folks to prove their injuries.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 14, 2010 12:09:23 GMT -8
The opposition announces its grand attack on February 4. They plan to flood the Expo board meeting, which will certify Phase 2 FEIR.
Please all of you who can attend this meeting come there so that we can outnumber them! NIMBYs are vicious and they can easily outnumber and outvoice the supporters, who are millions but usually don't bother to act.
Dear Friends and Neighbors,
On Thursday, February 4, 2010 at 2:00 p.m., the Exposition Construction Authority?s Board of Directors will vote to certify the Final Environmental Impact Report (FEIR) for the Phase 2 light rail through our neighborhood. It is essential that we show up as a critical mass of taxpayers to oppose running 225 ton trains at street level, as often as every 2 1/2 minutes, 22 hours a day, across Overland, Westwood and Sepulveda.
This may be the last opportunity for public opinions to be included in the Expo Phase 2 administrative record - we need to stand strong together against the senseless and needless impacts to safety, traffic and quality of life in our neighborhood. The decision makers only respond to numbers - come and be counted!
The board meeting will be held in the Board of Supervisor?s hearing room on the third floor of the Kenneth Hahn Hall of Administration located at 500 W. Temple Street, Los Angeles, 90012. We need you there.
Neighbors For Smart Rail (NFSR), representing Cheviot Hills and other area homeowners' associations, is moving forward with preparations for this meeting. We are working with our attorneys to write community comments to the FEIR that will be presented at the hearing. You may chose to speak or not, but we need you to come. We need your help to show MTA, the Expo Board and the politicians that this community cares enough, even during these economically challenging times, to take off work to attend the meeting.
NFSR has arranged for a limited number of free and reduced price parking spots downtown and carpools are forming. If you can attend the meeting please let us know so we can reserve parking for you or find you a carpool.
NFSR will be holding a community meeting later in February to update the community on our long range plan to make sure that this community is properly mitigated from the negative impacts of Expo trains, which affect not only this area but the entire Westside.
We greatly appreciate those who have donated to this effort and we know money is tight, but attorneys cost money! Our review of the 8,000 plus pages of the FEIR tells us the only way we will be heard is through the legal system. As we move forward in the process we will need your continued financial commitment. Right now the Cheviot Homeowners' Association is matching your contributions so your tax-deductable contribution goes even further. You may contribute through PayPal by going to smartrail.org or you may donate by mail to NFSR, PO Box 64496, Los Angeles 90064.
Thank you for your continued support.
Kevin Hughes President, CHHA
Colleen Mason Heller CHHA Light Rail Chair Vice President, NFSR
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Post by spokker on Jan 14, 2010 13:51:23 GMT -8
metrocenter, what's even better is that there is a voter mandate to fund public transportation through Measure R. A big part of Measure R is rail transit.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 14, 2010 14:23:45 GMT -8
"NFSR has arranged for a limited number of free and reduced price parking spots downtown and carpools are forming. If you can attend the meeting please let us know so we can reserve parking for you or find you a carpool."
Oh, the irony.
"Our review of the 8,000 plus pages of the FEIR tells us the only way we will be heard is through the legal system."
Yes, because most of the comments in the FEIR favor the project exactly as it is (at-grade along the ROW).
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 14, 2010 14:24:01 GMT -8
Well, spokker and others, what's even better is to show up to the February 4th meeting with your support.
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Post by spokker on Jan 14, 2010 16:14:30 GMT -8
Here's another thing about Measure R (R has been joked to stand for rail, haha). It received a lot of support in poor communities of color. These communities that are supposedly being steamrolled with at-grade light rail voted for Measure R, which would fund, guess what, more at-grade light rail! It would appear that community activists are not speaking for the communities they purport to speak out for. You could make the claim that these communities not only want more rail but have no problem with more at-grade rail.
It was still fun watching those anti-Measure R poetry slams on YouTube, though. A lot of good those did.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 14, 2010 18:46:06 GMT -8
It's funny how these arguments work. The yellow shirts (BRU) claimed that Metro was racist because rail only benefits rich white people. So Metro builds the Expo and Eastside Gold Lines. Now, NixExpo (a better name for them) says that Metro is racist because it is destroying non-white neighborhoods by building rail through them.
In other words, whatever Metro does, some group is going to yell racism.
It seems to me, the decisions of the Metro board and staff have taken into account (1) transit need, (2) equity issues, (3) political support, and (4) available money. Measure R was a huge vote of support for rail in L.A.
FixExpo and NFSR are nothing more than little groups of relatively wealthy homeowners who don't give a damn about transit. I can all but guarantee that lower-income residents near these stations are supportive of Expo. It's not about race, it's about money. FixExpo and NFSR want to stop the transit line. They are two peas in a pod. Metro should ignore them as long as they continue to make allegations that have no merit.
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Post by spokker on Jan 14, 2010 19:15:54 GMT -8
There has definitely been environmental justice issues, but I feel those were encouraged more by relentless highway construction through low-income areas. In fact I wrote a paper about it once. What does South LA want more, a freeway or an at-grade light rail line that travels on an already existing ROW? I say get rid of the 105 and leave the Green Line there! Which has a higher impact?
But I think when you look at rail in Los Angeles County today, well, the majority of people who use the Red Line are poor persons of color and the Red Line travels through a lot of diverse areas. The same goes for the Purple Line's two stations.
A new report said that among children, whites are now the minority in Southern California. As they grow older, whites will become the minority among all age-groups. That's not a good or bad thing. So I hope as this region becomes even more diverse, we can put the transit racism arguments to rest.
I say come down to Orange County where my bus service is being decimated and I'm not even 100% sure what the hell kind of ethnicity/race I am. Who do I whine to?
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Post by kenalpern on Jan 15, 2010 7:22:19 GMT -8
Unfortunately, so long as Southern Californians discover that "racism" cries get them attention we'll hear more faux descriptions of it.
"NixExpo"...cute.
Looks like the whole enchilada of Phase 1 of Expo might just open in 2011, not 2010. So be it!
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 15, 2010 9:27:22 GMT -8
There has definitely been environmental justice issues, but I feel those were encouraged more by relentless highway construction through low-income areas. In fact I wrote a paper about it once. What does South LA want more, a freeway or an at-grade light rail line that travels on an already existing ROW? I say get rid of the 105 and leave the Green Line there! Which has a higher impact? Exactly. The freeway projects of the 40s-80s obliterated hundreds of neighborhoods and communities throughout Southern California, and brought massive amounts of pollution and traffic to those communities that survived. In those projects, it was clearly 'ok' to destroy low-income communities of color, and those planners did so without hesitation. The Expo Line, OTOH, is clean technology operating on an existing row, built to modern safety standards. To compare this project to the actual abuses and injustices of the past is absurd, and diminishes the memory of the real pain that was inflicted by construction of the freeway system. I would respect FixExpo slightly more if they simply had said that their chief concern was property values. Or if Damien had said that his primary motive was speed. But I guess these weren't winning arguments. So instead, they decided to hide behind the false argument of safety for the Dorsey students, which in the end did little except to insult the local (primarily black) teenagers, by implying that they are not responsible or competent enough to take care of themselves in the street.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Sept 16, 2010 9:09:06 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 16, 2010 9:17:22 GMT -8
Ah, the NFSR NIMBYs again.
If only we could do an EIR for their houses.
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 16, 2010 10:27:25 GMT -8
Makes me want to start marching en mass through the easement in protest...
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 16, 2010 10:39:27 GMT -8
Makes me want to start marching en mass through the easement in protest... Most part of the easement is 75-ft-wide. The bike & pedestrian path requires only about 20 ft (17 ft of it being the paved multiuse bike + pedestrian path). I'm the original advocate and coordinator of this bike and pedestrian path through the restricted-use easement. We (Friends 4 Expo, bike, City, Metro, and Expo people) had surveyed the bike path together on a sunny day a while ago. The paved multiuse bike and pedestrian path will be 17-ft-wide. Regarding the loss of green space, if there is no bike and pedestrian path, no one can utilize the green space; so, the purpose of having green space is defeated after all. Also, whatever they put in the trench must coexist with the feral kitties there.
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