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Post by Gokhan on Dec 11, 2010 16:48:59 GMT -8
I'm sick of Nimbys for Stupid Rail. They don't care about the community, and they don't Expo to happen. It's that simple. That's absolutely correct. They (Terri Tippit [West of Westwood HOA and the Westside Neighborhood Council, Colleen Mason Heller [Cheviot Hills HOA], Mike Eveloff [Tract 7260 HOA], Drew DeAscentis [Westwood Gardens Civic Association and the Westside Neighborhood Council], et al.) hate the whole idea of the Expo Line.
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Post by azndevil97 on Dec 12, 2010 14:57:02 GMT -8
The trial will mark the defeat of the NFSR NIMBY opposition with the dismissal of the unsubstantiated legal challenge, and the much-needed and long-awaited Expo Line to Santa Monica will commence afterward.[/quote]
Sounds great! But if they appeal, construction can still start, am I correct???
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 12, 2010 15:49:23 GMT -8
Sounds great! But if they appeal, construction can still start, am I correct??? Yes, NFSR will appeal after the dismissal of the lawsuit but Expo will not wait for the results of the appeal and they will proceed with the construction of Phase 2.
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Post by azndevil97 on Dec 12, 2010 21:39:14 GMT -8
Sounds great! But if they appeal, construction can still start, am I correct??? Yes, NFSR will appeal after the dismissal of the lawsuit but Expo will not wait for the results of the appeal and they will proceed with the construction of Phase 2. Awesome. I pass by the super structure a couple of times a week and I just want to see construction of the bridge over Venice start quickly . I'm actually having a hard time visualizing it, perhaps because of all the telephone lines and such . I'm planning on moving to an area where I am about a mile from a light rail or subway station so I can use my car as little as possible
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K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by K 22 on Dec 13, 2010 13:29:09 GMT -8
Shouldn't they be called "Neighbors for NO Rail"? That seems to be more accurate.
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Post by bobdavis on Dec 13, 2010 19:40:12 GMT -8
I think the belief that NFSR should be called "Neighbors for NO Rail" was expressed earlier. They would appear to be in violation of some section of the "Truth in Labeling" regulations. Their attitude appears to be "We get around just fine in our cars, minivans and SUV's; if you don't have a car, you don't belong anywhere near our wonderful neighborhood."
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Post by roadtrainer on Dec 14, 2010 10:56:43 GMT -8
Bob Davis said: Their attitude appears to be "We get around just fine in our cars, minivans and SUV's; if you don't have a car, you don't belong anywhere near our wonderful neighborhood.". According to Bill Handel. KFI 640 A.M. All those people from the west-side claim to be all green and yet they all drive gas guzzling Suv's, And if you check out the Lousy NFSR they probably drive SUV's too!
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 14, 2010 11:49:40 GMT -8
Bob Davis said: Their attitude appears to be "We get around just fine in our cars, minivans and SUV's; if you don't have a car, you don't belong anywhere near our wonderful neighborhood.". According to Bill Handel. KFI 640 A.M. All those people from the west-side claim to be all green and yet they all drive gas guzzling Suv's, And if you check out the Lousy NFSR they probably drive SUV's too! As a lefty myself, nothing bothers me more than so-called environmentalists who don't practice what they preach. These people give liberals a bad name. In the case of rail opponents, they are opposing a solution that is not only green but also opens up new job opportunities for the lower classes. For me, I have had to reconcile my own environmental beliefs with my economic reality (that the work I found is far from my home). My interim solution is to drive a hybrid. Although this isn't nearly as green as taking transit, at least it results in lower gas requirements and pollution output.
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Post by darrell on Dec 14, 2010 12:53:43 GMT -8
According to Bill Handel. KFI 640 A.M. All those people from the west-side claim to be all green and yet they all drive gas guzzling Suv's, And if you check out the Lousy NFSR they probably drive SUV's too! In the course of my first conversation with Colleen Heller, where she was trying to convince me that the Expo light rail route wasn't environmental, she proudly stated something like, "I don't know what kind of car you drive, but I drive a Prius." To which I replied with my experiences as a Prius owner (2005, now with 95K miles). Sometimes I think every fifth car in Santa Monica is a Prius. But now they're old news to me. I will only buy a plug-in as a next car, probably a Nissan Leaf in 2011. BTW, see my new Sierra Club web presentation, Solutions to Oil Dependence. Click on the oil well, and be sure to follow the four "More on..." sublinks.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 14, 2010 13:10:04 GMT -8
According to Bill Handel. KFI 640 A.M. All those people from the west-side claim to be all green and yet they all drive gas guzzling Suv's, And if you check out the Lousy NFSR they probably drive SUV's too! In the course of my first conversation with Colleen Heller, where she was trying to convince me that the Expo light rail route wasn't environmental, she proudly stated something like, "I don't know what kind of car you drive, but I drive a Prius." To which I replied with my experiences as a Prius owner (2005, now with 95K miles). Sometimes I think every fifth car in Santa Monica is a Prius. But now they're old news to me. I will only buy a plug-in as a next car, probably a Nissan Leaf in 2011. BTW, see my new Sierra Club web presentation, Solutions to Oil Dependence. Click on the oil well, and be sure to follow the four "More on..." sublinks. Mrs. Colleen Mason Heller, Cheviot Hills Homeowners' Association Light-Rail Chair and NFSR Vice President, not only drives a Prius but she is a hardcore Democrat and a dog lover like Darrell. But I guess that's where the similarity ends. Someone from Cheviot Hills who had met her walking her dog many years ago was saying what a nice woman she was. She was very surprised to find out that she was so adamantly anti-light-rail.
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 14, 2010 13:52:41 GMT -8
Someone from Cheviot Hills who had met her walking her dog many years ago was saying what a nice woman she was. She was very surprised to find out that she was so adamantly anti-light-rail. Personally I've known many people who are polar opposite of me in terms of politics, yet who are perfectly nice to be around. And conversely, I've had political allies who are complete a**holes in person. Sometimes I think every fifth car in Santa Monica is a Prius. But now they're old news to me. I will only buy a plug-in as a next car, probably a Nissan Leaf in 2011. Not sure what "old news" is meant to imply about newer hybrid owners like myself. But consider that 97% of America ( ref) is still buying conventional cars that average about 20 MPG ( ref), and 0% so far are buying plug-in electrics. So for most people outside of Santa Monica, hybrids are still "new news", representing a huge improvement in environmental footprint over the old gas-guzzlers.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 14, 2010 14:08:53 GMT -8
Not sure what "old news" is meant to imply about newer hybrid owners like myself. But consider that 97% of America ( ref) is still buying conventional cars that average about 20 MPG ( ref), and 0% so far are buying plug-in electrics. So for most people outside of Santa Monica, hybrids are still "new news", representing a huge improvement in environmental footprint over the old gas-guzzlers. To ensure we stay off topic, for those with Prius's, it's great for the enviornment and stuff....but how is the government going to re-coup those lost gas tax revenues? Hence the reason governments really do not support hybrids and make mandatory high vehicle mileage. We are in big trouble if more people start driving higher feul efficient cars, unless new taxes/fees are created to make up for that lost source of revenue.
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Post by roadtrainer on Dec 14, 2010 14:17:58 GMT -8
On friday mornings Bill Handel KFI 640 AM host a segment called "Grip nite in the Morning" it is between 5 and 6 AM. Can someone call and murmur about the Not so good NFSR? I will be listening...
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 14, 2010 14:38:06 GMT -8
To ensure we stay off topic, for those with Prius's, it's great for the enviornment and stuff....but how is the government going to re-coup those lost gas tax revenues? Hence the reason governments really do not support hybrids and make mandatory high vehicle mileage. We are in big trouble if more people start driving higher feul efficient cars, unless new taxes/fees are created to make up for that lost source of revenue. I am all in favor of a federal gas tax increase, as discussed here. We sure don't want to encourage high gas consumption just to keep tax revenues up.
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Post by matthewb on Dec 14, 2010 17:51:10 GMT -8
If fuel efficiency continues to improve, the government will either have to find another source of taxation to pay for roads (e.g. cost per mile driven, increased gas tax, registration fees, or some combination) or end the farcical claim that highways aren't subsidised. Either way, it's an improvement over the status quo, and in the latter case, could lead to increased transit funding (at least I wish that would be the case).
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Post by wad on Dec 17, 2010 5:47:13 GMT -8
Sometimes I think every fifth car in Santa Monica is a Prius. But now they're old news to me. I will only buy a plug-in as a next car, probably a Nissan Leaf in 2011. You're buying a coal-powered car?!?
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 17, 2010 9:28:09 GMT -8
Sometimes I think every fifth car in Santa Monica is a Prius. But now they're old news to me. I will only buy a plug-in as a next car, probably a Nissan Leaf in 2011. You're buying a coal-powered car?!? and a car that you can't even drive to Orange County because of the limited range. And think about all the environmental damage done in making that huge battery pack. Is Santa Monica under Edison? I'm guessing the electricity is very expensive there then. The break-even point between Prius HV ad Leaf EV is 21 cents per kWh. A lot of electric and plug-in cars are arriving in 2012 by the way, including diesel hybrids.
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Post by darrell on Dec 17, 2010 15:57:52 GMT -8
You're buying a coal-powered car?!? and a car that you can't even drive to Orange County because of the limited range. And think about all the environmental damage done in making that huge battery pack. Is Santa Monica under Edison? I'm guessing the electricity is very expensive there then. The break-even point between Prius HV ad Leaf EV is 21 cents per kWh. A lot of electric and plug-in cars are arriving in 2012 by the way, including diesel hybrids. On emissions of where the electricity comes from, Argonne National Lab's June 2010 "Well-to-Wheels Analysis ..." documented that plug-ins have lower GHG emissions than equivalent ICE gasoline cars on U.S. average-mix electricity, about the same on a coal-intensive mix, and of course much better with renewables (Figure ES-1, page 3, below). Hybrids (HEVs) are similar to plug-ins on predominantly-gas-fired electricity (the WECC mix) like California's. Which will only get better as we raise the % of renewables. On the personal side it will make me independent of having to go to gas stations. True Orange County is a reach (50 miles one-way on a 100 mile range), but most of my trips are no farther than downtown L.A.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 17, 2010 17:42:34 GMT -8
and a car that you can't even drive to Orange County because of the limited range. And think about all the environmental damage done in making that huge battery pack. Is Santa Monica under Edison? I'm guessing the electricity is very expensive there then. The break-even point between Prius HV ad Leaf EV is 21 cents per kWh. A lot of electric and plug-in cars are arriving in 2012 by the way, including diesel hybrids. On emissions of where the electricity comes from, Argonne National Lab's June 2010 "Well-to-Wheels Analysis ..." documented that plug-ins have lower GHG emissions than equivalent ICE gasoline cars on U.S. average-mix electricity, about the same on a coal-intensive mix, and of course much better with renewables (Figure ES-1, page 3, below). Hybrids (HEVs) are similar to plug-ins on predominantly-gas-fired electricity (the WECC mix) like California's. Which will only get better as we raise the % of renewables. On the personal side it will make me independent of having to go to gas stations. True Orange County is a reach (50 miles one-way on a 100 mile range), but most of my trips are no farther than downtown L.A. Hey guys - does this conversation really have to be in the "Final Expo milestone : Phase 2 FEIR"? Let's try to keep the content appropriate to the subject headings. If warranting a change in discussion, please create a new thread.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 17, 2010 20:22:19 GMT -8
The grand battle with Neighbors for Smart Rail is about three days from now. Our defeat of the NIMBYs will set a precedent over the coming NIMBY wars for the Purple Line Westside Subway and other lines. Nonsensical NFSR lawn signsHopefully the victory will end all the NIMBY wars and the new light-rail and subway lines will be built in peace. Note the case no.: BS125233Go to the Los Angeles Superior Court's Web site and type in the case number to access the case information. 12/21/2010 at 09:00 am in department H at 12720 Norwalk Blvd., Norwalk, CA 90650 Court Trial - Short CauseNote that "short cause" means that it's a single, a-few-hour-long trial. Mark your calendars and see if you can attend. Note that the location is only a mile and half east of the Green Line Station and only a half mile east of Metro 460 stop at Imperial/Pioneer.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 19, 2010 20:34:52 GMT -8
My analysis of the NFSR case that I sent to Damien Newton of LA Streetsblog:
I think the Neighbors for Smart Rail (NFSR) case is almost certain to be dismissed on Tuesday, unless the judge discovers an unlikely mistake in the FEIR, which I don't believe exists.
The important thing to realize is that EIRs are not required to study everything, let alone be perfect. The main idea of CEQA is that for major projects like the Expo Line, environmental impacts and mitigations must be documented along with a reasonable range of alternatives that will reduce or mitigate these impacts.
The critical points are the "significant" impacts, and mitigations or alternatives must be studied to reduce the significant impacts. Once all the significant impacts are mitigated, the preparer of the EIR is not required to study in detail any other alternatives. (In the extreme scenario, if all mitigations and alternatives are studied but all are shown to be infeasible, this is recorded in the EIR and the project can still be built.) The main challenge of NFSR is that not enough alternatives (such as grade separation, other alignments, etc.) were studied. But Expo were able to mitigate all the significant impacts in the selected alternative (Expo right-of-way and Colorado Avenue with an at-grade section between Overland and Sepulveda); therefore, they were not required by CEQA to study in detail any further mitigations or alternatives. Yet, Expo did go ahead and analyzed the grade-separation options and found these to create significantly more construction and aesthetic impacts and be significantly more costly. In addition none of the NFSR's challenges to the EIR are specific and they make general challenges to most sections of the EIR.
In summary, under CEQA, a public agency can build anything it wants anywhere, as long as all the significant environmental impacts are mitigated. Alternatives (such as grade separation) need not be exhausted unless there are significant impacts remaining. If the reverse was the case, it would probably be impossible for a public agency to build anything. Opposition could always argue, for example, subways to be superior than light-rail or the transportation-systems management or no-build alternative to be superior to subways and hence put the scope of the project in an infinite loop.
After the dismissal of the case on Tuesday, the Phase 2 final design and construction will start in February. NFSR will have the option to appeal but given how weak their case is, it seems likely that they might not pursue additional funding from their homeowners' associations and supporters to cover the cost of such an appeal. In any case the design - build process won't wait for the results of an appeal.
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 20, 2010 13:52:28 GMT -8
I'm confident the case will be dismissed. Given all the noise NFSR made for years about the Expo Line, I would guess that the Expo Authority completed a legal review of the FEIR before releasing it to the public, to ensure that everything was in compliance with environmental law. The project managers and leadership at Expo are not stupid: they aren't going to make bonehead mistakes in the EIR that would allow the study to be thrown out.
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Post by darrell on Dec 20, 2010 16:57:07 GMT -8
Nonsensical NFSR lawn signs Is that a school above a train tunnel on the right? Beverly Hills High, perhaps? And if the tunnel is underneath them, those kids must be playing on Overland Avenue. Way to be safe!
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 20, 2010 17:19:03 GMT -8
Nonsensical NFSR lawn signs Is that a school above a train tunnel on the right? Beverly Hills High, perhaps? And if the tunnel is underneath them, those kids must be playing on Overland Avenue. Way to be safe! Good points! This one is posted by Damien Newton in today's LA Streetsblog article on the NFSR trial: The saddest lawn sign I've ever seen.He calls it the saddest lawn sign he's ever seen. It's sad indeed, these people asking freeways to be protected from much-needed rail transit, an obsolete mentality by now.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 20, 2010 18:05:07 GMT -8
A lot of noise over the Expo LineIt's a vocal minority in Cheviot Hills and Rancho Park who oppose construction of the light-rail line.
By Karen Leonard and Sarah Hays
December 21, 2010If you drive through Cheviot Hills and Rancho Park and see the orange-and-black signs peppering front lawns, you might get the impression that these neighborhoods solidly oppose the coming of the Expo light-rail line. "Kids and Trains Don't Mix," they shout, and "Don't Let the Train Block the Road." But the reality is quite different. Every weekend for the last couple of months, a group of us have been walking door to door, talking to our neighbors about the Expo Line that will soon connect our community to downtown Los Angeles, Santa Monica and points in between. One Saturday we met a couple and two youngsters just returning home as we arrived at their door. "I'm all for Expo!" the dad said enthusiastically. "My only complaint is that it is not closer to where we live!" Many of our neighbors have enjoyed living in cities with highly developed transit systems, such as Chicago, New York, Paris and Berlin. One woman had chosen her Boston apartment because it was near a rail station, so she could commute without driving. "Why," these neighbors ask us, looking puzzled, "would anyone not want a transit line near their homes?" As we go door to door, it becomes extremely clear: The great majority of our neighbors either welcome this new transit line or are uninformed but open to it. Only a minority oppose the line. One weekend we knocked on 60 doors. We found 15 active supporters of the rail line at grade as currently proposed, three vehement opponents and 14 who had no opinion one way or the other. (The others weren't home.) And so it goes every weekend: We've never found the opponents in the majority. At this point, we have talked with more than half of the 1,400 households in Cheviot Hills, giving priority to those who live closer to the line. But, as often happens in our democracy, the noise of a vocal minority is louder than the quiet majority. Today in Cheviot Hills and Rancho Park, the anti-mass-transit minority is hollering, while the much-larger group that supports the rail line sits back quietly. Community sentiment has changed since 1992, when Yvonne Brathwaite Burke defeated Diane Watson in the race for county supervisor. Burke's firm opposition to a light-rail line on the Exposition right-of-way echoed the vocal stance of the board of directors of the Cheviot Hills Homeowners Assn. and helped her win. But blocking construction of the line left the Westside suffering ever-worse traffic congestion even as residents of the rest of the city were finally able to benefit from mass-transit alternatives to driving. Before retiring, Burke changed her mind and supported construction of the Expo Line on the empty right-of-way. Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, who represents Cheviot Hills and Rancho Park, also supports the Expo Line and argues that at-grade light rail is the perfect system for our low-density suburban city. And, after testimony of dozens of proponents and a flood of e-mails in favor of the rail line, the Expo Authority board of directors voted in February to build the line on the right-of-way. Not to be deterred, opponents now hope to stop Expo Line construction with a lawsuit challenging the environmental impact report, scheduled for trial Tuesday in Los Angeles County Superior Court. And, while collecting the necessary money to sue, they've put out signs and worked hard to stir up fear with lies and half-truths about the line. They claim, for example, that it will block traffic on Overland Avenue and Westwood Boulevard when, in fact, the Overland signal at Ashby currently turns red 40 times an hour at peak periods and the Expo Line will cross Overland only 24 times in that same hour. Coordinating the signals will mean minimal or no delays to north-south traffic. Preying on parents' natural and normal protectiveness, these naysayers allege that the line will endanger students at Overland Elementary School. To refute that, we need only look to the Gold Line. There are 38 schools within a mile of that line, and not one child has been injured in its seven years of operation. And teachers love to use the Gold Line for field trips. If you live east of us and work in Santa Monica or Century City, or if you live west of us and work downtown, you probably find yourself inching along the 10 Freeway every day. And Expo opponents would have you continue fighting this traffic into eternity. So we continue to walk our neighborhoods talking with our neighbors, hoping that this time the quiet majority will finally prevail and we will all gain the choice of leaving our cars at home. Karen Leonard is an anthropology professor at UC Irvine. Sarah Hays is a Los Angeles architect. They are co-chairs of Light Rail for Cheviot Hills (lightrailforcheviot.org).
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Post by azndevil97 on Dec 20, 2010 21:11:42 GMT -8
Great article by Karen Leonard and Sarah Hays!
Anyone planning on going to the trial tomorrow? If so, please post as soon as possible!!! I wish I could go =/
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 20, 2010 21:57:52 GMT -8
^ Or twitter live!!!!
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 21, 2010 14:57:38 GMT -8
Crossposting:
I was at the courtroom today. I need to clarify things. First of all this was not an initial hearing but the one and only trial. This is called a "short cause," which means that there is only one trial that is finished by lunchtime. There will not be further hearings, briefs, or trials.
Also, I was the one who phoned Damien Newton and something got misunderstood on the phone. There will be no briefs that will be filed because the City of Sunnyvale vs. West Sunnyvale HOA CEQA-appeal issue was brought up late and both sides had to agree but Expo naturally didn't agree on filing briefs.
What this means is that now both sides will have to wait for judge's final ruling (anywhere from a few days to a month).
I will now start posting the details about today's trial.
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Post by darrell on Dec 21, 2010 15:03:55 GMT -8
Also crossposting from the other thread:First, the beginning and a page 1 excerpt from Judge Thomas I. McKnew, Jr.'s Tentative Order: #BS125233 TENTATIVE ORDER
NEIGHBORS FOR SMART RAIL's petition for writ of mandate is DENIED. [...]
Standard of Review A challenge to an EIR is reviewed for an abuse of discretion. PRC $ 21168.5. "Abuse of discretion is established if the agency has not proceeded in a manner required by law or if the determination is not supported by substantial evidence." Id. The court must uphold a decision if there is substantial evidence in the record to support the agency's decision. PRC $ 21168; Laurel Heights Improvement Ass'n v. Regents of the Univ. of California (1988) 47 Cal. 3d 376, 392. Substantial evidence is "enough relevant information and reasonable inferences from this information that a fair argument can be made to support a conclusion, even though other conclusions might also be reached. Id., 14 CCR $ 15384(a). Petitioner bears the burden of presenting credible evidence that the agency's findings and conclusions are not supported by "substantial evidence." Jacobson v. County of Los Angeles (1977) 69 Cal. App. 3d 374, 388. [...] The judge noted in opening that in "most of these cases ... every conceivable argument is raised ... like mud on a wall ... hoping something sticks ... you're on." Despite the plaintiff's attorney John Bowman raising issues in seven categories for about a hour, but for his breaking news of an appellate court decision last Thursday it seemed likely the judge would have made his Tentative Order final in court today. The news was Sunnyvale West Neighborhood Association v. City of Sunnyvale, which Bowman claimed held that the "baseline" for traffic, air quality, etc. must be the existing condition, not the No Build alternative as projected for 2030 in Expo's FEIR. The attorney for Expo (one of four present) countered that the California Supreme Court said that selection of the baseline is in the administrative agency's discretion, but in the Sunnyvale case the court concluded (pages 35-36) that there was no substantial evidence supporting their baseline, that it was prepared by the city after the Final EIR. He noted that the "AQMD (South Coast Air Quality Management District) said 'follow our handbook'" for environmental analysis, and the Expo Authority did exactly that. The judge concluded "I intend to take the case" under submission ("not my practice") because there were issues raised by the Sunnyvale case. The two parties did not agree to final submission of briefs, so the judge will do his own research on the Sunnyvale case and issue a decision, probably within a month. It seem pretty unlikely that this one court decision would overturn decades of CEQA practice and many decisions based on that, and otherwise the judge did not appear to find any of NFSR's mud had stuck to the wall.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 21, 2010 15:13:56 GMT -8
Do post about CEQA here in this thread, not in the construction thread.
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