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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Mar 13, 2010 17:41:57 GMT -8
Once the Crenshaw connector is in place and if the mayor is successful in his bid to get the line extended into LAX, we will have tracks from LAX to downtown.
In that (possibly very near) future time, it seems there might be a need for an express train from LAX to downtown Los Angeles - skipping many stops for speed.
However, this would be hard to pull off if there are local trains in the way.
In this scenario, what would need to be done to pull this off? Is there space to add additional express tracks or bypass tracks in order to allow an express train or would we be doomed to local trains at all times?
Has anyone ever thought of this potential problem?
Just curious, thanks for your thoughts.
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Post by ieko on Mar 13, 2010 21:51:30 GMT -8
Yes express trains can run on the Harbor Subdivision ROW because there is room for 3 tracks in most places.
It's unlikely that this will happen until some HSR stuff is built though.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 14, 2010 3:29:19 GMT -8
An Expo - Crenshaw revenue connector may not happen. It may require a transfer at Exposition and Crenshaw. Also, it's very hard to run express trains on these light-rail lines.
The Harbor Subdivision may get two light-rail tracks and a third track for freight, which can also accommodate express trains like Metrolink, DMUs, or similar.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Mar 14, 2010 23:45:45 GMT -8
Wait, what? The Crenshaw line will not tie-in with the Expo line? Passengers will have to get off (in South Central LA) with their bags and schlep them over to and wait for another train when going downtown from LAX or vice versa? Brilliant.
This ingrained lack of logic removes any doubt as to why Los Angeles will continue rank at the bottom of the world's cities when it comes to public transport. We can do something about this.
How can this be fixed now? Who would be approached?
AK
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Post by Justin Walker on Mar 15, 2010 1:03:09 GMT -8
Wait, what? The Crenshaw line will not tie-in with the Expo line? Passengers will have to get off (in South Central LA) with their bags and schlep them over to and wait for another train when going downtown from LAX or vice versa? Brilliant. Correct. The proposed operational plan is as depicted below:  Crenshaw Corridor trains would originate and terminate at Exposition/Crenshaw and would not travel to/from Downtown. This is motivated by both operational considerations and long-term planning considerations. Operationally, running Crenshaw trains into Downtown would require the existing Blue Line corridor from 7th to Washington to support the combined frequencies of three rail lines (Blue, Expo, & Crenshaw). This also means that service on each the Blue, Expo, and Crenshaw lines could, at best, be one-third as frequent as service into Downtown. This would require either unacceptably long headways on each of the three lines or unattainably short headways on the Downtown combined segment. The Crenshaw Corridor may share a platform with the Expo Line at Expo/Crenshaw, but there can be no interlining of service. As far as long-term planning, many at Metro and among transit advocates recognize that the Crenshaw Corridor has more potential if allowed to be part of a larger corridor to Wilshire Blvd. and perhaps someday to Hollywood. Consider this map from Supervisor Ridley-Thomas' Crenshaw Corridor press event (image captured by darrell):  The Crenshaw Corridor is therefore not ideal for travelers from Downtown LA traveling to LAX. Thankfully, as earlier posters have suggested, there are better ways to link Downtown to LAX (namely the Harbor Subdivision, which is ideal for use as a regional rail corridor from Union Station to LAX). |
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Post by kenalpern on Mar 15, 2010 11:58:31 GMT -8
Justin Walker has it exactly right. There's another issue, however, that we all MUST NEVER FORGET: the Crenshaw and Green Lines to LAX will NOT have their #1 source of riders as airport-bound plane commuters/tourists, but rather the army of individuals who do and will work in that region as it grows into a greater commercial powerhouse.
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Post by rajacobs on Mar 15, 2010 12:43:06 GMT -8
The solutions to rail transit for LAX I've heard so far suggest to me that rail access to LAX is, as yet, not deemed important.
I think of the rail access provided in Chicago, San Francisco, and Cleveland (the only ones with which I have personal experience). In each case, rail is provided directly to the terminal complex and the rails take you somewhere you wnat to go (OK, highly subjective) ...easily.
The Harbor Transportation Corridor offers an access solution. A route northward along Lincoln or Sepulveda, though unplanned is a suplemental solution, though planning is not very far along on either and funding is at the moment a dream. It seems that the Crenshaw LRT (or Green Line) would still require a transfer at Aviation & Century.
Perhaps thinking should begin with rail access within the LAX terminal complex with the next question how to bring it to desired destinations rather than append it to existing rail plans.
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Post by masonite on Mar 15, 2010 12:44:17 GMT -8
Justin Walker has it exactly right. There's another issue, however, that we all MUST NEVER FORGET: the Crenshaw and Green Lines to LAX will NOT have their #1 source of riders as airport-bound plane commuters/tourists, but rather the army of individuals who do and will work in that region as it grows into a greater commercial powerhouse. Good to see some new posters on here. LAX is definately a jobs magnet and especially for many of the people living along the Green and Crenshaw Lines so that is where most of the ridership will come from. Even today, the Green Line Aviation station is the busiest Green Line station (except for possibly the Blue Line transfer station). Despite some people pitching it as a great connection between LAX and Downtown, the Crenshaw Line even if it were interlaced with Expo would only marginally beat the Green/Blue Line combo. Like today, people going Downtown from LAX will be better off taking the Flyaway making use of the carpool lanes along the 105/110. I'll repeat my mantra that the Green Line should not be split and have all trains go to LAX and the Crenshaw Line should be a north-south line from Redondo Beach to its northern terminus. It would only make sense to split the Green Line if the two South Bay stations were as busy as the LAX station. I don't believe those stations combined are as busy as Aviation is today and probably will be less so once a LAX people mover is in operation. If we connect the Green Line to LAX and on the East to Norwalk HSR/Metrolink (I really wish this were in Measure R instead of the West Santa Ana ROW), they could run short headways with the automated operation people were talking about. The problem of waiting in the middle of the freeway wouldn't be so bad when you only have to wait a minute or two or three for a train vs. 10-12. The Green Line would operate like it was really designed to and be a valuable line in the system. Someday you could even have 4 car trains I would assume. |
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Post by metrocenter on Mar 15, 2010 13:36:38 GMT -8
masonite, if I understand you right, I agree that there is no reason to split the Green Line. I think the Green Line should head north/northwest from Aviation toward LAX and Westchester, and the Crenshaw Line should head south into the South Bay. The two lines would cross at Aviation/Century.
I would like to see some numbers on this, but my suspicion is that most Green Line passengers disembarking at Aviation Station are heading either to local destinations (LAX or otherwise) or northbound.
I do think it's a shame that the Crenshaw Line cannot join Expo and terminate in downtown. Unfortunately Expo is not built to allow that many trains (Expo plus Crenshaw trains) in the segment connecting Crenshaw Station to Downtown.
Maybe one day, a new east-west segment will be built for the Crenshaw Line, taking it to Downtown via Venice or something. But that day probably will not come in my lifetime.
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Post by masonite on Mar 15, 2010 13:55:01 GMT -8
masonite, if I understand you right, I agree that there is no reason to split the Green Line. I think the Green Line should head north/northwest from Aviation toward LAX and Westchester, and the Crenshaw Line should head south into the South Bay. The two lines would cross at Aviation/Century. I would like to see some numbers on this, but my suspicion is that most Green Line passengers disembarking at Aviation Station are heading either to local destinations (LAX or otherwise) or northbound. I do think it's a shame that the Crenshaw Line cannot join Expo and terminate in downtown. Unfortunately Expo is not built to allow that many trains (Expo plus Crenshaw trains) in the segment connecting Crenshaw Station to Downtown. Maybe one day, a new east-west segment will be built for the Crenshaw Line, taking it to Downtown via Venice or something. But that day probably will not come in my lifetime. Metrocenter, we agree on this. I know last time on here it seemed most people agreed with the MTA though so we may be in the minority. It seemed like the prevailing attitude was to split the line, but just run headways at twice the rate, which isn't practical from an operations/money point of view. I think the main reason the MTA wants to split the Green Line is that they would have to abandon tracks between the current Aviation station and Mariposa. |
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Post by tobias087 on Mar 15, 2010 21:21:39 GMT -8
What I would very much like to see, in the long-term, is a light rail 405 line (which runs through the Purple line and Expo) which meets a Green line extension, with some tracks sharing between Green and Crenshaw near Century/Aviation and surrounding stations. Crenshaw would take the Redondo Beach/South Bay extension route, and and the Green line would continue towards Norwalk.
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Post by davebowman on Mar 16, 2010 15:20:41 GMT -8
The Hiawatha Line in Minneapolis runs from downtown south to the MSP airport (including the charter terminal), and on to its southern terminus at the Mall of America. And there is a free 24-hour shuttle which runs between the main terminal and charter terminal. Business people who have to get to the airport from downtown Minneapolis love it--according to the schedule on the HL website you can make the trip during evening rush hour in about 23 minutes. And a stop has been added at the Twins' new outdoor stadium in downtown Minneapolis, Target Field, which opens next month. What a concept.
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Post by trackman on Mar 18, 2010 20:35:06 GMT -8
On this very site, somewhere among these boards, there was discussion of a study of a line connecting to the Green Line and running north, by Aviation/Century, and veering northwesterly up Lincoln, or something... and towards Santa Monica.
If that were to ever happen, I can see all Green trains going to Santa Monica... and Crenshaw going south. And Crenshaw also going north.... per something similar to the map shown above... going to Hollywood.
fwiw... downtown is certainly a major destination. doh. But, current lines can not host an endless number of rail lines. I think it is called train congestion. And, trying to do so would cause delays... and probably a less safe situation.
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