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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Mar 24, 2010 2:36:09 GMT -8
Yes, yes - I know this is a silly question, but sillier things have been proposed and succeeded - so please humor me for a brief moment: IF (and it's a big IF) someone, somewhere were to get the idea in their head that it would be a good publicity stunt to borrow (from OERM I suppose) a PE Red Car and run it on modern lines (e.g. Expo, Blue, or Gold). What would be required to make it happen? Again, I know some will just laugh and say "impossible," and it may be. But off the top of my head (if the clearances work) it might be doable, no? The gauge is the same, yes? Problems I can think of are: - Clearances and loading dock level
- A voltage step down transformer (Old cars were 600v, I think we're now North of 1200v)
- A CPUC/Transit Authority variance to allow it
Of course, the biggest problem would be clearance. And I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm insane or drinking - but if it were possible, it would be a tremendously fun task to accomplish for all involved. I figured if anyone would know the answer or the clearances off the top of their head, they would be here. AK
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 24, 2010 7:51:21 GMT -8
Los Angeles Metro Rail is 750 V DC. Light-rail vehicle width is 8.7 ft and subway-car width is 10.0 ft. Pacific Electric had 600 V DC as well as 1200 V DC cars. Some of them were 72-ft-long and not articulated, in comparison to 90-ft-long articulated light-rail vehicles used now. So, in principle you would find some Pacific Electric trolley or interurban car that would fit. You can probably run both 600 V and 1200 V class cars without much problem. 1200 V cars used to run at 600 V with less power and illumination. Longer interurban cars may not turn on tighter radii for articulated light-rail vehicles. You would have to make sure it's not too wide either, but narrower trolleys exist. Back then they didn't necessarily use platforms and people simply climbed steps to the high floors. There was a flap that they could swing back and forth on top of the stairs for platform or stair operation. Interurban cars, as opposed to trolleys, had very high floors; so, it could be a challenge to climb the steps. They are also wider than 8.7 ft, I think. Here is a picture of one of these giant steel monsters in the OERM museum: There is still a Pacific Electric line running in San Pedro: www.sanpedro.com/spcom/redcar.htm
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Post by rubbertoe on Mar 24, 2010 7:54:31 GMT -8
I think a bigger problem would be the automatic system for bringing down the crossing gates. Assuming that you could somehow get that to work, and a car were available, and your problems were addressed, it could probably be done. The current platform height is probably totally incompatible with the lower floor red car is my guess. If not for that, then you could be like San Francisco where they run vintage trolley cars on the Muni line in regular service. I saw that down by the wharf when I was there, very cool. Come to think of it, on the old red cars you probably had to step up several steps to get to the seating level, so maybe the platform height difference wouldn't be so bad. Having said all that, and if the issues could be worked out, you might have a situation where say one of the old red cars could be "upgraded" to run on the current light rail system. It would be a great PR stunt, and the car could be used periodically for important events like the first ride on new branches, the Rose Parade queens ride, visiting dignitaries, you get the idea. Of course, spending Metro money to make this happen isn't politically feasible. But, I'm guessing that there would be many volunteers who would donate their time, and there would likely be a corporate sponsor who would be willing to pony up the $2 million (total WAG) to "modernize" an old red car. Heck, I'll kick in the first $100, and volunteer time on the weekends too. Anybody have an old Red Car they would like to donate RT
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Post by transitfan on Mar 24, 2010 8:24:25 GMT -8
This would be a great idea, though rather than using a "blimp" (the car pictured above), a "Hollywood" car might be better suited. It probably would have few, if any clearance problems. You may remember seeing a Hollywood car (or a replica) in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" Below is one of the Hollywood cars that the Orange Empire Railway Museum owns:
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Post by rajacobs on Mar 24, 2010 8:28:49 GMT -8
On occasion, Cleveland's RTA (Regional Transit Authority) will trot out the old MU-equipped PCC cars that ran on the Van Aken and Shaker Boulevard lines of the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit until the 1980s ...and if my memory serves me correctly, Peter Witt cars as well. The Shaker system originally ran Peter Witt cars (Peter Witt was a native of Cleveland and the style of trolleycar named for him originated on the Shaker lines). One of these cars is retained for occasional charter use. Additionally, several MU equipped PCCs are retained: though these have been retired with purchase of 48 Breda-built LRVs in the 1980s. The Breda cars, which have doors on both sides, have addressed the height differentials by allowing right-hand running on the joint trackage, however it is still the case that in this section each station has dual platforms to accommodate both the high level and low level entry cars. It would be wonderful to recall Los Angeles' streetcar heritage and enable one or more of the old red cars to run on the current light rail lines, much as Cleveland does.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Mar 24, 2010 8:57:38 GMT -8
As several mentioned, there is precedent. It's done in Cleveland on occasion, as well as New York City - they run vintage subway cars most Sundays in December. It's even done in Germany, old streetcars from the 1920's run every Sunday in the summer in Nürnberg.
When Diane Feinstein was mayor of San Francisco, my understanding is she had something to do with getting vintage streetcars back on Market street - one of the first cities to do this. The vintage cars still run daily in San Francisco on regular, revenue lines. They have a dedicated team to keep them working and are building their own carhouse. The public loves them.
I have a gut feeling that Art Leahy (MTA's CEO) would entertain the idea, - but it would have to be wrapped up pretty with all the legwork, insurance, costs, and personnel issues completely worked out for him to even consider getting involved.
It might be an idea to talk to the team in SF and see how they went about it.
It just sounds like a fun project for all of us. I get back to LA this summer and can do some of groundwork - at least to identify what needs to be done.
I just want to make sure that it's technically possible and there aren't other weird roadblocks so it doesn't become for naught.
It would be fun to ride in an old PE car on an actual line and I bet there are plenty of closet rail fans (and their kids) who would really enjoy it!
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 24, 2010 10:08:40 GMT -8
I think that the best option would be for OERM to rig one of their cars so that it could be coupled to a modern car and to have a trip that started at either the blue or gold line yard and ended at either Washington or Memorial Park with no on or off in between. Honestly I don't think that Metro would go for it and might not even give you a firm answer since the capability doesn't yet exist. Still I think that it's worth pursuing and I would be very interested. Maybe it could be worked out to make the inaugural Expo run on such a car. They might be interested in that.
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Post by rajacobs on Mar 24, 2010 11:58:02 GMT -8
Inaugurating the new line with a vintage car and a new car sounds nostalgic and forward-positioning at the same time ...just like leaving a trestle of the old bridge underneath new one over Ballona Creek. I hope this idea can reach teh right ears.
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Post by kenalpern on Mar 24, 2010 14:30:57 GMT -8
It's a fun idea, but it does have the risk of suggesting that 21st century light rail is just a throwback to a 100-year-old idea. I think that the best image that could be promoted for these new lines is that they're modern. Futuristic modern, even.
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Post by trackman on Mar 24, 2010 21:17:24 GMT -8
ADA
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Post by whitmanlam on Mar 24, 2010 22:03:20 GMT -8
It's a fun idea, but it does have the risk of suggesting that 21st century light rail is just a throwback to a 100-year-old idea. I think that the best image that could be promoted for these new lines is that they're modern. Futuristic modern, even. The difference is that modern light rail must compete with the automobile and must be able overcome the suburban sprawl. 100 years ago the street car did not have these challenges. Cities were much smaller and easy to navigate. The only competition was horsedrawn carriage, bicycles, and a people's own two feet. In that sense the street car commute was the best option, and people did not mind spending an hour plus on their daily trip to work. Hard to believe transit agencies were profitable back in those days. Since then the overhead, construction, land, and labor costs have skyrocketed.
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Post by spokker on Mar 24, 2010 22:37:21 GMT -8
Nostalgia sells.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 24, 2010 22:48:32 GMT -8
PE "Blimps" on the Gold Line? No way--not with Metro platform clearances. Even the 1001 would probably be too wide. Not sure if Hollywood cars are narrow enough--but I don't think so, but their low-floor design poses loading issues. For a real fantasy idea, how about a Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee or Chicago, Aurora and Elgin interurban? They were narrow enough to run on the CTA "El" lines, and there might be one available. Paint a North Shore car in PE colors and renumber it to 1270 (the typical North Shore car of the 20's looked somewhat like a PE 1200-class car). Add the PE-style destination signs and it would look about right (any modelers want to take on this challenge?). Regarding the 750-volt overhead: I think VTA in San Jose figured out how to run cars designed for 600 volts on 750--maybe by adding resistors in some of the lighting and control circuits. Whether old traction motors could stand the increase in voltage is open to question; some testing would be advisable, and to run vintage cars on an active public transit line a complete rewinding might be required. My feeling on the whole matter is that it's highly unlikely--I think the nearest thing we'll see to vintage car operation on LA Metro lines is the two Blue Line cars that were repainted to PE colors in 2000 for the 10th Anniversary. Much as I liked seeing this short-lived recognition of our traction heritage, those modern light rail cars just didn't have the same "presence" as real Red Cars.
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Post by transitfan on Mar 25, 2010 10:04:58 GMT -8
Bob, I fear you may be right. For the Blue Line's 20th anniversary later this year, it would be nice if they restore a couple (maybe 3, since they run mostly 3-car trains these days) to the original 1990 colors, complete with the blue "M Metro" logos. Maybe cars 100 & 101 (plus one more), since that was the consist of the official first train on 7/14/90 (incidentally, 100 was also an original Green Line car, it, along with 126 and 136 (I think) supplemented the 15 1994 P865s (154-168) in the first days to allow some 2-car trains to handle the crowds (I rode a 2-car consist for my first ride on the second Saturday of service back in August of 1995)).
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 25, 2010 11:27:45 GMT -8
20 years? yikes. I feel old. I guess I don't look like this anymore XD anyways, I disagree with the "running older cars makes us look old" theory. I just got back a few days ago from a trip to San Francisco, where I rode BART from Richmond into The City and a PCC trolley on Market, not to mention a classic cable car. and I was surprised how much fun the cable car was (it helped that I was near the front when the operator said "the cable is out... we're just going to coast downhill from here, okay?") getting back to my point, San Pedro not only has the waterfront Red Car line, it also has its fair share of vintage auto clubs... guys who have fixed up these classic old 1940s Buicks and whatnot, and I'm fairly certain people can tell the difference between those cars and a PT Cruiser. history is important, and people do get nostalgic for these things, but at the same time, I don't think it undercuts the arguments that light rail is modern. regarding the logistics of it.... I suspect that we may have eliminated all chance for getting some Pacific Electric equipment on the Blue Line when we built platforms all up and down the line. the trick to San Francisco is that their light rail vehicles are capable of both platform loading (in the tunnels underneath Market) and steps (anywhere out beyond downtown). because of this, they have a lot more opportunities for getting out the PCC cars and other vintage trolleys.
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Post by warrenbowman on Mar 25, 2010 17:07:17 GMT -8
I think this would be a great way to inaugurate a line. So many people pine for the "good old days" of the Red Cars, and how easy it was to get around then. A great way to tie the past to the present, and to put the lie to the car-centric babble.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 25, 2010 22:36:21 GMT -8
I just checked the "Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars" website and found that North Shore and CA&E cars are 8' 7" wide, so theoretically they would clear the platforms. Now the question would be, are they be too tall for the tunnels at 7th Metro, Figueroa St. and Colorado Blvd.? Assuming this wasn't a "deal breaker", there is at least one North Shore car that might be "for sale", although it's in questionable condition. Now "all" we nostalgia fans have to do is A) convince Metro that this is a good idea, B) gather a large sum of money (at least $500,000 as a wild guess) and C) find a shop that can do the refurbishment and modifications. For one thing, while the traditional trolley poles could be kept on at least one end for aesthetic purposes, the car would need modern current collectors. Also: regarding people who "pine for the 'good old days'", how many would REALLY give up the control that that steering wheel gives them? One of my more cynical suspicions is that many who "miss the Red Cars" really miss the days when people who weren't white, middle-class and male "knew their place and kept quiet." I would be one of the first to cheer and even contribute time and money to a "replica Red Car" project, and I was totally amazed when the San Pedro operation became a reality, but unless someone with financial and political horsepower gets behind it, we're just (in the immortal words of Dusty Springfield) 'Wishin' and Hopin'.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 26, 2010 6:48:47 GMT -8
Los Angeles Metro LRVs are 8.73 ft, not 8' 7", which is 8.6". But 0.1 ft (less) wouldn't make much difference. Platform height is 3.25 ft. Overall height is 12.25 ft plus pantograph.
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 26, 2010 8:49:15 GMT -8
I'd be curious to see how this fits together with the Broadway streetcar project.
depending on how their plans progress, the type of equipment used in both projects, and the personal politics of transit, any attempts at bringing streetcars to Metro Rail could either a) compete with the streetcar project for funds or b) glom onto the other project as partners.
best-case scenario would be everyone learns to share (equipment, trackage and/or funds)
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Post by crzwdjk on Mar 26, 2010 8:58:55 GMT -8
One other technical difficulty is the cab signal/ATP system. It really wouldn't be safe to run a car without it, and installing it involves hooking into the control systems of the car. Without ATP, the only places where the historic car could be run is on street-running sections. The most suitable place would probably be Long Beach, or maybe Santa Monica once Expo gets there. You'd need to have an LRV tow the historic train there, but once it gets there it can run back and forth without getting in the way of regular service too much.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 26, 2010 9:55:51 GMT -8
I've always wanted to run an amusement line between Bagley and Overland. There are no grade crossings and it's very, very scenic. Any volunteer motorman? We also need to install trolley wire and fix some track sections and we would need volunteers for that as well.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 26, 2010 18:26:30 GMT -8
I checked North Shore cars, and they are about 12' 7" (12.58') tall (they had to fit through a short tunnel near Howard St.). Be that as it may, the best place to see real PE cars in action is at Orange Empire. Like many railway museums, getting there by public transit is a challenge, but it can be done. Metrolink service to Perris is expected to begin in 2012, but may not include weekends at the start.
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Post by Gokhan on Mar 26, 2010 19:29:17 GMT -8
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Post by jeisenbe on Mar 29, 2010 13:02:54 GMT -8
I agree with James, historic interurbans and streetcars would work best on a downtown streetcar aligment. That would avoid the problems of interfacing with high platforms and in-cab signaling systems.
The new broadway streetcars downtown will probably be modern vehicles, like in Seattle, Portland and other cities, but it would be relatively easy to run restored Red Cars on that route as well, perhaps on weekends and holidays. Now we just need a few million dollars for restoration...
San Francisco has had great success with the Market Street Railway program, which uses restored PCC streetcars from around the world, and runs them along Market and the Embarcadero. However, there are only so many historic streetcars left, and restoration is expensive. Most new streetcar lines are going to need to buy new vehicles.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 25, 2012 14:04:33 GMT -8
So did we determine that this would be impossible?
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 26, 2012 22:56:20 GMT -8
I wouldn't say "impossible", but "highly unlikely" isn't quite strong enough. Regarding the contention that running vintage cars would be "bad for Metro's image"--I don't think the average citizen really cares one way or the other. It's us transit fans who take such things seriously. One time there was a discussion about railway color schemes on Trainorders.com; my contention was that the typical transit/commuter train rider doesn't care what the vehicle looks like. It could be a wooden interurban as long as it was A) on time, B) comfortable, C) clean, D) staffed by courteous personnel, and (in the case of local transit) E) free of obnoxious punks and weirdos.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 27, 2012 16:23:45 GMT -8
I just thought of a light-rail operation that just recently started running vintage cars on the same tracks with modern LRV's: San Diego has a set of former San Francisco Muni PCC cars that have been restored and equipped with modern current collectors to run on San Diego Trolley lines around downtown. When the original SD Trolley service opened 30 years ago, there was some discussion of bringing in a "real" San Diego PCC car from Orange Empire, but the folks in charge decided not to "play the nostalgia card" and to focus on the new, modern cars. Now that the Trolley has run successfully all these years, I would guess that the current "powers that be" figure there's no harm in doing something "retro" to add variety to downtown.
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 13, 2012 13:49:33 GMT -8
I suspect that it helps that San Diego operates low-floor light rail vehicles which don't need to have high-platform boarding. Even the stations which are elevated or underground don't have much in the way of platforms.
I like Metro Rail's stations as they give high visibility, a sense of solid construction (here's the station, it's going to be here for a while) and they provide much better ADA compliance. Also, in the case of side-loading platforms, the added height forces people to think more carefully when crossing the tracks.
But they could be considered an obstacle to vintage streetcar running.
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 13, 2012 20:45:51 GMT -8
Vintage streetcars wouldn't work on the LA Metro Rail lines for the reason stated. What might work would be vintage Chicago elevated cars and interurban cars designed to reach downtown Chicago via the "L" system. Both North Shore and Chicago, Aurora & Elgin cars would presumably fit the loading gauge, and two CA&E cars were fitted with modern current collectors to run on the Cleveland suburban rail lines to Shaker Heights. All it takes is a rather large stock of $$$$$, and the political clout to get Metro to agree with the idea. It could be done, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 13, 2012 23:26:17 GMT -8
There are probably international examples of older equipment which can be run on Metro Rail tracks as well.
However, at some point, I think we have to ask, "why are we doing this?" If we're just running older equipment for the sake of running older equipment, outside of any historic or even nostalgic context, I think it loses any sense or meaning. The Chicago equipment would have no historic ties to Los Angeles. San Francisco gets away with running PCCs painted in various cities' schemes, but they can get away with it because the PCC is distinctive, it was in widespread use, including San Francisco, and personally I think they look good.
Just tossing random equipment onto Metro Rail because we can isn't an idea I would support.
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