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Post by saltire08 on Jul 30, 2010 23:21:26 GMT -8
Hi all, I'm currently doing a project where I am trying to find the exact ROWs for all of the PE lines. I've looked at countless websites (www.erha.org, Dan Wetzel's, etc.) but I'm having trouble figure out where some of the lines went. For example, the line that went through where Marina Del Rey is now - where would it have been?
Does anyone know if there are any technical documents out there that have the exact ROWs listed?
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Post by Gokhan on Jul 31, 2010 9:43:25 GMT -8
Hi all, I'm currently doing a project where I am trying to find the exact ROWs for all of the PE lines. I've looked at countless websites (www.erha.org, Dan Wetzel's, etc.) but I'm having trouble figure out where some of the lines went. For example, the line that went through where Marina Del Rey is now - where would it have been? Does anyone know if there are any technical documents out there that have the exact ROWs listed? The exact routes are hard to find. There is a "Mapping Rail" group in Yahoo but there are very few PE maps there, almost none for the Westside. The only sure way would be to go to the libraries etc. and dig through the parcel maps of 1930s and 1940s. Another good way, although not as accurate as the parcel maps, is to go to the Web site historicaerials.com and look at old aerial photos. Regarding the Pacific Electric Inglewood Line you mentioned, the exact route is more or less known:The PE Air Line (predecessor of the Expo Line) followed a right-of-way roughly parallel to and just south of Colorado, and then split and turned toward Main St at the present-day 4th St/I-10 terminus of the Expo Line. You can see the diagonal turn in parcels as well as Main St in present-day Google Maps. Then it followed Main St until Hollister Ave, then turned to present-day Neilson Way, which used to be a private PE right-of-way, back to Main St between Rose and Sunset, and ended at the present-day MTA Venice bus division, which then used to be the PE Ocean Park car house. You can still see the remnants of the tracks in Venice. From there the Inglewood Line started. It roughly continued along (check the old aerials) briefly on the north side of Main St, then along Electric Ave, north of Abbot Kinney, along Oxford Ave, along Admiralty Way, south of Marina Freeway, along Jefferson Blvd, along Centinela Avenue, along the eastside of I-405, along Thornburn St/Industrial Ave, Oak St, and Cable Pl (note the name), where it merged with the then and present-day ATSF/BNSF Harbor Subdivision, which will soon share tracks with the Crenshaw Line. You can see a rail yard at this location in the 1952 historic aerials. It makes you want to cry and throw up when you realize that these excellent rights-of-way are mostly gone, doesn't it? If they were preserved, we would have a comprehensive light-rail system through the most important and interesting areas today, all across Los Angeles.
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Post by ieko on Jul 31, 2010 15:30:21 GMT -8
Perhaps this map on the first floor of Philippe's would help a bit?
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Post by saltire08 on Jul 31, 2010 16:38:19 GMT -8
Gokhan and ieko, thanks so much - much appreciated! Gokhan - you're absolutely right. It makes me want to scream and throw things, haha! I'm from the east coast and am used to not having a car and being able to Metro it everywhere. My goal is to get the exact ROWs and then put them in a Google Map that will show the extent of the old system. I think Metro needs to leverage the extent of the PE system to pull on the sentimental strings of LAers and show that this IS possible. I mean...can you imagine a line right down Brand stopping at the Americana? Rick Carusso would be dancing at the new cash flow he'd get in. Also...I stopped by the Metro Library the other day and met with Jim Walker. We talked a lot about the old lines and he recommended a few books, but throwing down $100,00 for books is something I can't afford these days.
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Post by darrell on Jul 31, 2010 18:39:43 GMT -8
A good reference is the hand-drawn line-by-line maps in "Lines of Pacific Electric - Southern & Western Districts" (Interurbans Special 60), edited by ... Jim Walker. I bought mine in the 1970s; there is a companion one for the Northern & Eastern Districts. Allied Models in Culver City has been know to have these used.
A really fascinating source are historic U.S.G.S. topographic maps - they go back to c. 1900. I recently found some in a map case in the Santa Monica main library reference section.
The good news is that rights-of-way remaining in 1990 were purchased from Southern Pacific Railroad by the LACTC (a predecessor of MTA). Their uses include the Expo and Orange Lines.
Regarding the Inglewood Line to Santa Monica, much of it was narrow, and it has been cut up and built on in many places. Here's are some details:
Pico to Rose - The "Trolleyway" dedicated double-track passenger right-of-way is now Neilson Way in Ocean Park and Pacific Ave. in Venice. A parallel single track for freight was mid-block between Pacific and Main Street. The "clown" building at Main and Rose is on former railroad land that was still vacant in the late 1970s.
Rose to Venice - It crossed Main south of Rose and ran behind the buildings on the east side of Abbot Kinney. It is now a combination of new lofts and parking. The Metro bus yard is the site of the former P.E. Ocean Park Car House.
Venice to Washington - It crosses Abbot Kinney mid-way, and you can see new houses built on it toward Washington.
Washington to Lincoln - The row of new houses on the east side of the park along Admiralty Way is former right-of-way.
Lincoln to Jefferson - You can see the vacant right-of-way on the south side of the Marina Freeway between Mindanao and Culver. Piers for its old plate girder bridge over Ballona Creek are still there.
Jefferson to La Cienega - It was on the south side of Centinela, then along the flood channel on the north side of the 405 freeway.
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Post by Gokhan on Jul 31, 2010 19:39:08 GMT -8
A really fascinating source are historic U.S.G.S. topographic maps - they go back to c. 1900. I recently found some in a map case in the Santa Monica main library reference section. Yes, the USGS topological maps are very interesting and useful. Palms and Cheviot Hills historian and Expo supporter Jonathan Weiss had put several of them in the Cheviot Hills Homeowners' Association's Web site: cheviothills.org/history.htmI find the 1896 map very interesting. Before Santa Monica Blvd even existed, it was a railroad. There were only a handful of houses in the entire LA basin. LA basin hardly even had villages back then, only settlements, in fact not even that. It's like tracing biological evolution down to early lifeforms.
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Post by pithecanthropus on Oct 27, 2010 21:25:10 GMT -8
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Post by bzcat on Oct 28, 2010 15:02:01 GMT -8
What about Culver Blvd? Which streetcar line used to run down the middle of Culver?
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Post by transitfan on Oct 29, 2010 8:47:31 GMT -8
What about Culver Blvd? Which streetcar line used to run down the middle of Culver? Not sure of the exact name, may have been the "Del Rey" line. Branched off the Venice Short Line at Culver Junction, then all the way down Culver (crossing the Venice-Inglewwod line at some point), then down Vista Del Mar along the coastline, into El Segundo (not sure if it met the El Segundo line), then Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach into Redondo. Around Diamond Street, it met the Redondo Beach via Gardena line and they both ran to the terminus (Clifton?) Hope I got that right, I haven't looked at my Pacific Electric books in a few years (they are all currently packed up in storage since I've moved a few times in recent years).
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Post by darrell on Oct 29, 2010 9:18:09 GMT -8
Hope I got that right, I haven't looked at my Pacific Electric books in a few years (they are all currently packed up in storage since I've moved a few times in recent years). Sure did, from memory no less! I just looked up the Redondo Beach-Del Rey Line map in Interurbans Special 60. It does show a "Standard Oil spur" connecting in El Segundo. You can see where the crossing of the Venice-Inglewood line was, just west of the new Marina Freeway bridge over Culver Blvd. Remains of an old trestle are in the Ballona Wetlands north of Culver Blvd. (3/4/07 photo below, looking east). My mother had ridden the line from Manhattan Beach to downtown L.A. in the 1930s, before abandonment in 1940.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 29, 2010 11:41:31 GMT -8
Thanks for this nice picture, Darrell. This line would have been a great one, continuing the Expo Line through Venice, Marina Del Rey, and Inglewood. But, unfortunately, thanks to shortsightedness, at least half of the right-of-way has been built on. With today's land prices, it would be very difficult to acquire it.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 29, 2010 15:16:56 GMT -8
Most of the right of way is parking lots or empty land (e.g. Santa Monica Parking lots between Nielsen Way and Main Street, the LA City parking lots parallel to Abbot Kinney, the Time Warner parking lots to the west of Jefferson, the empty land parallel to 90 and 405 freeway where the Toyota and Ford/Honda car dealerships are located). The only stretch that is covered with houses is along Washington Blvd and near Marina del Ray. But I guess that stretch is the most expensive/valuable land, hence it was sold in the first place.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 29, 2010 16:12:29 GMT -8
Most of the right of way is parking lots or empty land (e.g. Santa Monica Parking lots between Nielsen Way and Main Street, the LA City parking lots parallel to Abbot Kinney, the Time Warner parking lots to the west of Jefferson, the empty land parallel to 90 and 405 freeway where the Toyota and Ford/Honda car dealerships are located). The only stretch that is covered with houses is along Washington Blvd and near Marina del Ray. But I guess that stretch is the most expensive/valuable land, hence it was sold in the first place. I counted approximately 100 house-size parcels built on the right-of-way. We would be looking at around $100 - 200 million for the cost of the acquisition. The bigger problem would be the opposition to the acquisition. Despite the fact that the government reserves the right to acquire any private property, people would be reluctant to relocate their houses and businesses and you would see a lot of opposition. Also, parts of this alignment would go on streets like Main St in Santa Monica. But, then, if the transit trend sticks, we could be looking at lines like this in the near future. A fully preserved right-of-way I analyzed runs in South Bay, and it would be a great line with high ridership serving the South Bay beach cities, which won't be accessible with the future extensions of the Green Line, as these extensions are quite far from densely populated PCH and the beach area. But, there, you would see a lot of opposition from the rich folks.
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