Pasadena Streetcar !

[rubbertoe]

Wow,
This is the first time that I ever heard about this. Given the current political climate, Pasadena's budget problems, and the fact that there are 50 other cities that are in line in front of us, the appropriate category is definitely "The Dream" one. Having said that, $75,000,000 on the high end would be about $300 per resident to get half that amount, then get the business community to cough up the other half. I have my checkbook ready

www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_16461456

[transitfan]

Interesting news. I wonder though, what would happen with the overhead wires crossing Colorado Blvd? Might mean no more huge floats in the Tournament of Roses parade

[metrocenter]

They have talked about a streetcar in Pasadena for over a decade. But this sounds very promising.

Green Street is such a beautiful street, with its canopy of shade trees and old brick buildings. I think old-style streetcars (either vintage or replica) would fit that environment much better than big modern ones.

[rubbertoe]

I did a little rooting around and came across an "Executive Summary" of this proposal on the City of Pasadena website. They have a good 28 page Powerpoint presentation used to brief officials. Lots of good cost estimate data, and a nice picture too showing the route.



There are many good aspects to this, aside from the relatively high cost from a city's perspective. The one way route that would run on both Green and Union, assuming Green one direction then coming back up Union in the other direction, would add a tremendous amount of accessibility to the two streets just North and South of Colorado Bl. Colorado is fully developed in terms of Old Town, and a lot of the business does find it's way to those other two streets. Having a dedicated streetcar on them would serve to "fill in" many additional commercial sites that are currently underutilized.

The Memorial Park Gold Line station would be 300 feet from a streetcar stop, and there is a dedicated walkway directly from the station entry/exit on Holly St to get to Union.

Also, the streets are very wide one way streets. You could very easily take away a lane of traffic for exclusive streetcar use and have no impact on traffic flow. Streetcar flowing with traffic would be going East on Green, presumably on the North side of the street, and then coming back West on Union, on the South side of the street. Pasadena Avenue could also easily lose a lane, and would have to if the streetcar is coming South down the one way against traffic.

The only tricky part would be going North on Lake. Lake is insanely busy, and I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just go another block East and go up Mentor. That street has a bunch of development that would be accessible then. I guess they chose Lake because there is another line planned for two way operation on Lake, that maybe would utilize the same tracks? Not clear in the Powerpoint presentation. The Green/Union line has to be one of the prime locations in the entire region that is screaming for a streetcar just from a business development perspective, building on what is already there for Old Town.

The two "Additions" they show would be to get to Pasadena City College down Green, and the Caltech down California. The extension down Green makes the most sense given the wide street, and, the locations along that stretch also offer many more underutilized properties.

Concerning the Rose Parade: This I'm not an expert on this, but I would think that the overhead wires could be constructed in such a manner that the two short stretches that actually cross Colorado could be somewhat easily removed the night before the parade, then re-installed the night after the parade. Anybody know why this couldn't be done? Yearly operation cost would be $4,000,000 with 10-minute headways and 6 vehicles.

RT

[masonite]

Great idea and hopefully they can pull it off. I've always loved Pasadena. However, I wish the streetcar could be better integrated with the Gold Line, particularly the Lake Station. I think a lot of people don't like making the walk from the freeway Lake station to the heart of Lake, which is generally south of Colorado. It sorta of accomplishes this, but not really.

[rubbertoe]

Colorado Bl problem solved. No need to string wires over Colorado, some onboard supercapacitors could store enough energy to get the streetcar over Colorado to the next overhead wire. If the streetcars already have regenerative braking, then that could also feed into the supercapacitors. Don't know if either of these technologies has found it's way into streetcars yet, but by the time the Pasadena system gets built it could very possibly be available.

From Wikipedia:
The introduction of supercapacitors has promised to drop electrical running costs for trains powered by overhead lines or third rails. Kinetic braking energy is reclaimed by storing electrical energy in supercapacitors onboard the vehicle. This stored energy is used when accelerating the train, when high current is needed. The supplementing supercapacitors reduce current drawn through the electrical supply during acceleration and puts less strain on the distribution system.

Later developments locate banks of supercapacitors at track side. All trains on the system can then use the stored energy in the supercapacitors to supplement the energy drawn through a third rail or overhead wires. Trackside location reduces vehicle weight and creates more onboard space. However, such locations would require additional equipment to charge the supercapacitors from the overhead line voltage and to generate supplementary power at the voltage and frequency of the overhead line from the stored energy.

Claimed energy reduction is around 30%. Electric railway systems can be more competitive and a real economical alternative to automobiles.

The technology can be used equally well for diesel electric locomotives, where 25% to 40% reduction in energy consumption is claimed, however only onboard location of supercapacitor banks is feasible. (This technology equally applies to road vehicles that use electric motors for propulsion, such as hybrid cars and buses.) Any electrical equipment that requires regular braking can reduce operating costs using supercapacitors. Reduced operating costs of elevators on underground railways would be a great benefit to operators and adding to their economic competitiveness.

An additional benefit is that emissions from generating plants and diesel-electric locomotives will be decreased.

Since 2003, the Mannheim Stadtbahn in Germany has operated a light-rail vehicle using electric double-layer supercapacitors to store braking energy.

A number of companies are developing electric double-layer supercapacitor technology. Siemens AG is developing mobile energy storage based on double-layer supercapacitors called Sibac Energy Storage Sitras SES, are developing stationary trackside version. The company Cegelec is also developing an electric double-layer capacitor-based energy storage system.

[Gokhan]

There is a photo somewhere in the PE Flicker archives of the ceremony that ended the streetcar server in Pasadena. There was a banner on the last streetcar saying "A Streetcar Named Retire."

It's great to hear that people are no longer jerks as they were then and the streetcars are coming back -- with "Desire."

[Gokhan]

Nov 1, 2010 9:38:53 GMT -8 rubbertoe said:

Colorado Bl problem solved. No need to string wires over Colorado, some onboard supercapacitors could store enough energy to get the streetcar over Colorado to the next overhead wire. If the streetcars already have regenerative braking, then that could also feed into the supercapacitors. Don't know if either of these technologies has found it's way into streetcars yet, but by the time the Pasadena system gets built it could very possibly be available.

Li-ion batteries (or even NiMH or lead-acid batteries) are another solution.

I think having extra and unconventional technology for the Pasadena streetcar system will complicate things and should be avoided. Note that in the Disneyland Pacific Electric trolleys, they will use batteries because they are afraid that some people might end up electrocuted through conductive helium balloons.

I think a 16-ft-high trolley wire would be high enough clearance for the floats. 16 ft is the legal clearance for highway overhead. There must be traffic lights etc. on Colorado already with no more than 16 ft clearance. They can power down the system during Rose Parade or at least the section at Colorado, as it probably can't be used during the parade anyway.

[bzcat]

Extending the streetcars (eventually?) to Cal Tech and PCC is a good idea

[Gokhan]

Nov 1, 2010 12:23:04 GMT -8 bzcat said:

Extending the streetcars (eventually?) to Cal Tech and PCC is a good idea

PCC as in PCC streetcar?

[LAofAnaheim]

Shouldn't the streetcar be on Colorado boulevard? Why are we using two unknown streets? Don't you want to be on the main boulevard where the ridership wants to go?

[rubbertoe]

Nov 1, 2010 12:51:18 GMT -8 LAofAnaheim said:

Shouldn't the streetcar be on Colorado boulevard? Why are we using two unknown streets? Don't you want to be on the main boulevard where the ridership wants to go?

Colorado Bl. is already way too jam packed to put in a streetcar. There are many businesses that operate valet parking on the street that would not really be compatible with a streetcar running. They chose the right route. The primary factor, I presume, is the available street running space, and the fact that the route essentially borders Old Town, and would bring additional businesses along the two streets where the streetcar would be operating. Colorado Bl. itself is doing just fine business wise, which is why the streetcar would be more of a contributor on Green and Union, yet still serve Colorado Bl. For those not familiar with Old Town, all the streets running from Green to Union (South to North) that cross Colorado all are populated with shops and restaurants, and are considered part of Old Town. So, should you hop off the streetcar at almost any part of Old Town, the businesses are going to be right there. Walking the ~400 feet to Colorado shouldn't be much of an issue if that is your destination, and saves us the problem of trying to figure out how to pack a streetcar onto Colorado itself.

Take a look at typical Green St, 3 lanes of traffic with parking on both sides. The old Twin Palms restaurant is on the left (now closed), and Buca de Beppo is on the right. The trees lining the street go all the way East to Hill where the street ends. If I recall correctly, the Gold Line had running up Green Street as an option in the early AA phase. The streetcar would go up Green on the left lane in the direction the photo is facing.



About 4 blocks up the street you have the Paseo Colorado on the left, and the Pasadena Convention Center and Auditorium (under construction in the photo) on the right. It doesn't get any better than this..



And here is nearby Union looking East also. The street car would be on the right side in this picture, and coming toward you. The large building on the right is the parking for One Colorado complex, which is basically a one square block retail/restaurant area. This is accessible from Union street in a couple locations. People walking over from the Memorial Park Gold Line station can get into the area off of Union without having to go to Colorado...

[LAofAnaheim]

Nov 1, 2010 13:23:12 GMT -8 rubbertoe said:

Colorado Bl. is already way too jam packed to put in a streetcar. There are many businesses that operate valet parking on the street that would not really be compatible with a streetcar running. They chose the right route. The primary factor, I presume, is the available street running space, and the fact that the route essentially borders Old Town, and would bring additional businesses along the two streets where the streetcar would be operating. Colorado Bl. itself is doing just fine business wise, which is why the streetcar would be more of a contributor on Green and Union, yet still serve Colorado Bl. For those not familiar with Old Town, all the streets running from Green to Union (South to North) that cross Colorado all are populated with shops and restaurants, and are considered part of Old Town. So, should you hop off the streetcar at almost any part of Old Town, the businesses are going to be right there. Walking the ~400 feet to Colorado shouldn't be much of an issue if that is your destination, and saves us the problem of trying to figure out how to pack a streetcar onto Colorado itself.

Well, it does kinda suck that they are putting the private automobile ahead of public transit.....

[Jason Saunders]

www.ehow.com/list_5885885_rose-parade-float-rules.html

"Float Size
# There are no official height and size limitations for floats; however, all floats must be able to fit or collapse underneath the Sierra Madre/I-210 freeway overpass, which is along the natural parade route.

In the 2004 Tournament of Roses, Disney sponsored a float that towered nearly 100 feet tall. Normal floats are not nearly that tall; at the 2010 parade, the tallest float stood at 60 feet tall, and the longest float measured at 114 feet long."

Route:
If they shot a line down Hill street connecting Green and California the closed loop would create operational efficiencies.

Power: I like the battery idea. I don't think it's that experimental. Many autombiles including the wildly popular Prius use dual power. Althougth the batteries themselves are very expensive.

To shut the train down on the single biggest day of demand (parade day) would kind of blow. I'm sure those engineers at Cal Tech could figure something out.

Storage: Where would they store or maintain cars?

[ieko]

I suppose it may be wise for Pasadena to observe Foothill Transit's Ecoliner Project (Proterra Buses).

It's pretty neat -- but one big problem with electric buses is the battery life... replacing batteries isn't exactly cheap. Batteries have to be replaced because they lose their capacity over time, which also impacts operations heavily over time. Over the useful life (10-12 years) of an electric bus you may need to replace the battery pack 2-3 times.

[Gokhan]

Nov 1, 2010 13:36:33 GMT -8 ieko said:

It's pretty neat -- but one big problem with electric buses is the battery life... replacing batteries isn't exactly cheap. Batteries have to be replaced because they lose their capacity over time, which also impacts operations heavily over time. Over the useful life (10-12 years) of an electric bus you may need to replace the battery pack 2-3 times.

One nice thing about streetcars is that the weight of the battery is less of a concern than in an automobile. Therefore, they can use cheaper battery technology such as NiMH or lead acid, which does the same thing as the expensive Li ion but only weighs more because of smaller power density.

[jass]

The future DC streetcar system is based on the idea of using battery power to cross major "viewlines"

[rubbertoe]

Nov 1, 2010 13:30:20 GMT -8 Jason Saunders said:

Storage: Where would they store or maintain cars?

Take a look at this area on Lake just South of California. It is South of Oakwood Place, and North of Cornell Rd. It is kind of a pocket park just West of Lake. I don't even think it is officially a park either. The site is roughly 460 feet long, which is good, but only about 80 feet wide at the widest point. You could probably squeeze 6-8 vehicles in that area along with a small repair shop.

This of course assumes that all the tracks are connected and a vehicle leaving this spot could serve both proposed routes. Large empty lots in this part of Pasadena are few and far between.



Ok, just found a much better site. Larger and right on the route. The Southeast corner of Pasadena Av and Green St! That corner is largely empty and on the map appears as LA Harley-Davidson. Strangely enough, it seemed to be used as a staging area for construction of the Westgate complex to the South that is nearly finished. The area to the South of Dayton St. is still largely empty too, though that may be used for Westgate part2. Not sure about that.

[matthewb]

Here's another forum that discussed the development of this proposal over a year ago. I was waiting for this to show up as a public announcement for a while:
forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=175421

I think it totally makes sense to add in many streetcar systems in the various cores of greater Los Angeles. Pasadena is a good choice, and it has a very active city government that could make it happen. Other cities that should (in an ideal world) also have streetcar systems to fuel regional dense, pedestrian-oriented cores are DTLA, Santa Monica, Hollywood/WeHo, Venice, Long Beach, Riverside, etc. I chose those cities in particular because their main rail (Metro or Metrolink) connections have already been developed, or at least planned. Others such as Glendale and Burbank probably need to figure out their Metro rail connections before focusing on streetcars.

[bobdavis]

I just took a look at the aerial views: I wouldn't even consider the parcel on Lake south of California; the NIMBY factor would be off the charts. Historical note: South Lake had Pacific Electric trains running from Colorado to Huntington Dr. (Oak Knoll Line) until 1950. For this century, much better to use the lot southwest of Old Town.

[James Fujita]

of course, in 1950, Rose Parade floats were not nearly as tall as they will be in tomorrow's parade