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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2010 16:50:52 GMT -8
Yesterday's unfortunate accident only caused a 20-minute service delay. While I feel bad for the driver, bad drivers like this one who don't obey the traffic laws and don't pay attention to the road are the ones who end up injuring or killing other drivers and pedestrians.4 injured when Blue Line train and car collide in downtown Los AngelesNovember 10, 2010 | 6:29 pmFour people were injured Wednesday afternoon when a light-rail commuter train collided with a car in downtown Los Angeles, authorities said. Police believe the driver of the car attempted an illegal left turn about 3:15 p.m. in front of the Metro Blue Line train as it traveled south on Flower Street near the 18th Street intersection, Metro spokesman Rick Jager said. The driver of the car was seriously injured and taken to a hospital, Los Angeles City Fire spokesman Erik Scott said. Two passengers on the train suffered non-life threatening injuries and were also taken to hospitals. A third passenger had minor injuries and was treated at the scene. All of the victims complained of neck and back injuries, Jager said. The train was at half-capacity with about 150 people on board, Jager said. A different train was sent to cover its route and commuters experienced a 20-minute delay. The crash is still under investigation. The names and ages of the victims were not given. -- Corina Knoll
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2010 23:25:06 GMT -8
Although, looking at the Google maps, it looks like 18th and Flower is a rather complicated crossing with two freeway entrances merging into each other. Complicated rail crossings and bad drivers don't mix, especially when they're in a hurry to get on the freeway.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Nov 12, 2010 8:31:49 GMT -8
It's very complicated because the signs say to turn left for the freeway, but then there are two signal lights practically right next to each and it's not obvious at first which is the one for the freeway and then the signals are green and red at different times.
It's really confusing IMO, although assuming that the flashing "train" signs are there I don't see much excuse for pulling in front of a train.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 12, 2010 9:57:25 GMT -8
Regardless of what the color of the signal is, it's a very good idea to look both ways before entering a rail crossing.
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Post by rubbertoe on Jan 20, 2011 7:37:10 GMT -8
Looks like the city has followed up on our suggestion back here to get some rail improvements to the Pico station should they build that NFL stadium downtown: transittalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=goldline&thread=64&page=1In the LA Times today: www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-sp-la-nfl-stadium-20110120,0,7459705.story Relevant quote is: "Leiweke also downplayed L.A. traffic concerns, saying that AEG traffic studies found "you could've landed a helicopter on the freeway" on Sunday late mornings when NFL traffic would typically creep downtown to the Interstate 101/10 interchange. Leiweke said AEG also would fund rail upgrades to assist with stadium/convention center access." I can't imagine that they would relocate the Pico station, that would be over the top expensive. I know that we were kicking around some ideas about what upgrades might be required in terms of the additional ridership that the Expo line would bring. Maybe they are thinking about something along the lines of being able to park several trains on new sidings close to the Pico station to help with exiting crowds? Or maybe an upgrade to the station itself to allow for better flow toward the LA Live complex? There is that huge empty (essentially) parking lot between Flower and Figueroa, but the Pico station is shoehorned in between Flower and the buildings to the East... Given the tight quarters around the station, and the high ridership that will be on the line, I also have trouble imagining them doing any serious work during weekdays. You could relocate Flower St a bit to the West and free up a whole lot more space at the station... RT
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 20, 2011 8:14:15 GMT -8
I've been thinking about this since AEG first mentioned that the station needed to be improved a few months ago. I always assumed that they would kick in some money, but glad to hear them saying it.
Anyway, my thoughts have been what about a second platform? I had said years ago when the Expo EIR came out that Pico should be in Expo terminology a "Gateway" station. The new platform would be south of Pico and used for Track 2/southbound trips. The existing platform would be for Track 1/northbound. In the picture above the right lane ends just past Pico and turns into street parking. You could get rid of about 10 parking spaces, re-stripe the two lane portion of Flower south of Pico and fit the additional platform where the left lane is currently. is splits not only the load on the platforms, but the crossings of Flower. Also disruption to blue line service would be minimal.
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Post by rubbertoe on Jan 20, 2011 8:47:40 GMT -8
It would probably be a good idea to get rid of that section of 12th street that curves between Flower and Figueroa. That then frees up that entire block. It would also improve traffic flow on both Flower and Figueroa, since you are getting rid of traffic both coming into and out of Flower and Figueroa. Having that large of a ground level empty lot right next to LA Live seems goofy too, at least in this day and age. At a minimum you would think they would build a large parking structure, or use part of that for the discussed transit upgrade. It is great that both the Blue Line and the Expo Line will be stopping there later this year. And the DTC will allow for a one seat ride from Pasadena to LA Live, thats huge, for me anyway RT
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 20, 2011 8:51:39 GMT -8
It would probably be a good idea to get rid of that section of 12th street that curves between Flower and Figueroa. That then frees up that entire block. It would also improve traffic flow on both Flower and Figueroa, since you are getting rid of traffic both coming into and out of Flower and Figueroa. Having that large of a ground level empty lot right next to LA Live seems goofy too, at least in this day and age. At a minimum you would think they would build a large parking structure, or use part of that for the discussed transit upgrade. That empty parking lot was meant fo the LA Central development. It's not planned to stay empty for long (well, as long as the economy allows).
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Post by rubbertoe on Jan 20, 2011 9:59:58 GMT -8
It would probably be a good idea to get rid of that section of 12th street that curves between Flower and Figueroa. That then frees up that entire block. It would also improve traffic flow on both Flower and Figueroa, since you are getting rid of traffic both coming into and out of Flower and Figueroa. Having that large of a ground level empty lot right next to LA Live seems goofy too, at least in this day and age. At a minimum you would think they would build a large parking structure, or use part of that for the discussed transit upgrade. That empty parking lot was meant for the LA Central development. It's not planned to stay empty for long (well, as long as the economy allows). That might never happen as the developer went bankrupt back in 2009 per this story... www.ladowntownnews.com/articles/2009/11/20/news/doc4b0731a243675030358522.txtAnd some nice pictures showing what was planned: la.curbed.com/archives/2007/08/heres_your_la_c.phpThe second picture from the Curbed link seems to show the site as being only the parcel that is North of 12th street. Not sure what the parcel South of 12th street has planned. Right now there only looks to be that single abandoned building there (Family Ford). RT
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 20, 2011 10:08:21 GMT -8
And some nice pictures showing what was planned: la.curbed.com/archives/2007/08/heres_your_la_c.phpThe second picture from the Curbed link seems to show the site as being only the parcel that is North of 12th street. Not sure what the parcel South of 12th street has planned. Right now there only looks to be that single abandoned building there (Family Ford). RT That was suppose to be Jardin; south side of 12th between Flower and Figueroa. It was owned by the South Group up until last year (don't know the new owner; or if sold). Jardin was planned until early 2010 and then cancelled after Evo couldn't sell fast enough and the economic downtown. Both parcels are zoned for high density development. Eventualy, they will be built; thus used as parking lots for the time being.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 20, 2011 11:13:33 GMT -8
The main reasons to upgrade Pico station are to improve capacity, speed, safety and access. To the extent that Anschutz could help improve any of these, I'm all for it.
The ideal (but expensive) solution would involve grade separation, either underground or elevated. Putting it underground would involve relocating the tunnel ramp (currently between 12th and Olympic) to south of Pico, and thus a massive cut-and-cover operation probably extending from Olympic to around Venice. So I think underground is the least likely option.
Elevated might work, but only if it were located south of Pico Blvd., rather than north of it. (The existing tunnel portal begins immediately north of 12th Street, so there would need to be enough space for the transition ramp.)
If grade separation is not feasible, the station could also be rebuilt at-grade. I would say, rebuild the station with center tracks and side platforms, with both platforms having primary entrance ramps which extend all the way to both Pico and 12th Street.
Implementing this would require widening the right-of-way, either by removing another lane from Flower Street, or by acquiring land from the adjacent block. But I think this new design would meet all the above criteria, and would be much easier to understand for novice users.
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Post by bzcat on Jan 20, 2011 11:38:48 GMT -8
Grade separation of the rail line is probably out of the question. But that doesn't mean grade sepration is completely out of the question.
What about putting Flower in a trench and expanding the Pico station footprint over the covered trench? All we need is one block of Flower in a trench... that shouldn't be very expensive (relatively speaking vs. a 3 block long trench for light rail + underground station box). And once the parking lot is redeveloped, we can have surface level pedestrian zone connection between the Pico station and LA Live.
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Post by jamesinclair on Jan 20, 2011 18:49:26 GMT -8
I see three car lanes. Lose one, add a third platform, and done.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 20, 2011 20:39:19 GMT -8
I think that one lesson learned from the last Laker parade was that you need two platforms for really large crowds. And if you have two, it makes more sense from a congestion standpoint to have split platforms with one platform on the opposite side of the Pico intersection. It gives passengers one more crossing route and splits the flow so that everyone isn't trying to get to the same place at the same time.
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Post by JerardWright on Jan 20, 2011 23:45:59 GMT -8
I think that one lesson learned from the last Laker parade was that you need two platforms for really large crowds. And if you have two, it makes more sense from a congestion standpoint to have split platforms with one platform on the opposite side of the Pico intersection. It gives passengers one more crossing route and splits the flow so that everyone isn't trying to get to the same place at the same time. Recycling a post made on the very topic. I took this picture at the 2008 Laker Season openerHere's the adjacent property. It's the blue boxes in the image. Currently it is parking on the 12th Street side. The same can be made for the NE corner of Pico/Flower. The yellow zone is the second platform location. All Metro would need is a chunk of it as a Fare-control plaza. As there are large loads during and after games using the TVM's it maybe needed to have a larger zone like this to handle that demand.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 21, 2011 9:23:19 GMT -8
That would be great to handle crowds for Laker games, but it would be insuffcient to handle football crowds which are four times the size. And then there will likely be times when the football game and Laker game and maybe a concert all happen at the same time.
When you're getting crowds that large (and like at the Lakers Parade) you need to not only have more fare control/platform space, you need to separate them so that you don't have everybody trying to board at the same place. If everyone were going in the same direction and taking the same train it might be different, but they're going to have people needing north/south and expo/blue. IMO it's absolutely necessary that they be split platforms. There's no other reasonable way to get everyone on the trains unless they grade separate the station and create multiple entrances. I really don't see that happening, but you never know.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 21, 2011 9:37:28 GMT -8
I like the idea of adding a second platform on either the road side or by taking property from the adjacent parcels. But I still say they need to add entrance ramps extending all the way to 12th Street. Much of the pedestrian traffic, especially on event days, comes from that direction.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 21, 2011 10:17:08 GMT -8
I think that the tracks curve together after the station prohibiting that.
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Post by JerardWright on Jan 21, 2011 14:57:45 GMT -8
That would be great to handle crowds for Laker games, but it would be insuffcient to handle football crowds which are four times the size. And then there will likely be times when the football game and Laker game and maybe a concert all happen at the same time. When you're getting crowds that large (and like at the Lakers Parade) you need to not only have more fare control/platform space, you need to separate them so that you don't have everybody trying to board at the same place. If everyone were going in the same direction and taking the same train it might be different, but they're going to have people needing north/south and expo/blue. IMO it's absolutely necessary that they be split platforms. There's no other reasonable way to get everyone on the trains unless they grade separate the station and create multiple entrances. I really don't see that happening, but you never know. Then how about having fare control plaza inside the new stadium/LA Live/Staples Center buildings similiar to what was done at Qualcomm Stadium for the San Diego Trolley. Have those present at the stadium reduces the demand of the main station fare machines. Also if this were a fully grade separated station they'd still need additional fare payment machines around the station for temporary use so for these peak events (Coordination between AEG and Metro is required) Metro can wheel in additional fare boxes with operators to handle the fares. So the split platforms will take care of the loads/demand. The additional fare control spots add to reduce queing potential improving capacity and safety.
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Post by James Fujita on Jan 25, 2011 12:09:27 GMT -8
I'm thinking we definitely need to bridge the gap between Flower and the convention center.
Instead of stairs leading down to street level at the north end of the platform, let's see if AEG would be willing to pay for stairs up and over the tracks. The other end of the bridge leads to the convention center and/or stadium, of course. Ticket vending machines on the bridge.
Any new construction on 12th Street would have a mezzanine lobby entrance ;D
The hard part would be the elevator to keep ADA happy. You'd probably need to widen the platform, since the station wasn't designed with an elevator shaft in mind. But compared to grade-separating the station, that ought to be easy.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 25, 2011 14:48:31 GMT -8
All this week, Blue Line service will be running at lower frequency in the late evenings (after 8 PM). This is due to work on the northbound track on Washington Blvd., related to the Expo Line project. Metro advisory
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 25, 2011 16:26:26 GMT -8
All this week, Blue Line service will be running at lower frequency in the late evenings (after 8 PM). This is due to work on the northbound track on Washington Blvd., related to the Expo Line project. Metro advisoryThis has been happening since early 2010/late 2009 and most likely will until track testing is ready.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 9, 2011 13:57:06 GMT -8
Police Cracking Down On Violations Near Blue Line In Long Beach by Ryan ZumMallen | Long Beach News | 02.08.11 |
10:09am | Police marked the first day of an effort to crack down on traffic violations near the Blue Line metro tracks in Long Beach on Monday, issuing more than 100 citations in just over two hours. Eighteen motorcycle officers from the Long Beach Police Department and Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department participated in the roundup.
The effort had been planned far in advance, but recent accidents that included the death of a bicyclist a few weeks ago added a level of seriousness to the event. It was the seventh Blue Line death since it opened in 1990. Police will begin watching traffic and pedestrian violations that include illegal left turns, jaywalking and using cell phones while driving. Fines average more than $500.
"We can't build a bubble around the Blue Line to protect people from themselves," said Los Angeles County Supervisor Don Knabe. "So we all must learn to look, listen and live."
The office of Knabe posted the following video from yesterday's press conference.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 22, 2011 11:39:05 GMT -8
Pedestrian gates will be very useful to prevent such incidents on the Expo Line because some people are clueless and they will walk right in front of a train unless there is a barrier in front of them: Blue Line pedestrian fatality, February 22, 2011
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 22, 2011 16:32:33 GMT -8
Pedestrian gates will be very useful to prevent such incidents on the Expo Line because some people are clueless and they will walk right in front of a train unless there is a barrier in front of them: Blue Line pedestrian fatality, February 22, 2011Well, that's a little uncharitable, Gokhan. But I agree that 103rd needs better gates at the Blue Line. Currently, there are only 2 crossing barriers, not quad gates, and there are no pedestrian gates. There are 4 tracks here (2 for freight, 2 for light rail), so it would be easy for someone to get confused about whether they were on the active tracks. Or perhaps a train going the opposite direction obscured a train passing the other way? Quad gates and perhaps automatic pedestrian gates would make this intersection much safer, which would also make the blue line more reliable: maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=103rd+st,+los+angeles,+ca&aq=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=53.829089,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+103rd+St,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=33.943236,-118.243574&spn=0.00087,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=33.943179,-118.243474&panoid=BQM3JalsIkr8jBjVEoUwxA&cbp=12,94.8,,0,3
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 22, 2011 18:26:26 GMT -8
Let's hold it right there. We cannot build a bubble around people. If they are stupid enough to walk in front of a moving train and not look up, then they have lost the genetic lottery.
I would posit your assumption that people just aren't getting the message about a train coming - and would behave differently if they did - is entirely incorrect. We are the only county on earth employing this many safety devices in and around trains. Adding more will simply make the surrounding neighbors more annoyed, but it will do nothing to reduce the number of people killed and may actually increase it.
Fences line almost the entire length of track and yet some still choose to hop them and run across while trains are coming. This proves they know about the tracks because they are making an active effort to get over the fence.
People also regularly speed, jaywalk and run red lights. There is no uproar or effort to put fences around streets. There is no movement to put crossing gates at each vehicular intersection. It would seem most people realize, and in fact the law states, that if you choose to jaywalk and get hit by a vehicle the fault lies entirely on you.
Why then is there hand wringing each time a pedestrian is hit by a train? If a pedestrian is hit by a bus or a truck they are just as dead, but it rarely makes the news.
I submit there is no difference. While sad for all involved we do a disservice to all by assuming people are unaware and by telling them it's the state's responsibility to make it "safer.". It isn't. They are making a conscious decision to ignore train traffic either deliberately (Crossing against a signal) or by willful ignorance (e.g. Wearing headphones and jogging on an active track). In either case the responsibility lies squarely on their shoulders and there it should remain.
FYI, the number of pedestrians killed in Los Angeles per year hovers just under 300.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Feb 22, 2011 19:16:27 GMT -8
It was likely an unseen second train heading the opposite direction. Much more often than not, that's the case.
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Post by metrocenter on Feb 23, 2011 8:36:53 GMT -8
It is very sad when anybody dies at a rail or street crossing, even if it was because of pedestrian error. Everybody makes mistakes: unfortunately, some mistakes are fatal.
Of course, if the woman walked onto these tracks in front of the train, with all the lights operating properly, then Metro is not negligent.
Having said that, if Metro can, at a reasonable cost, add elements to a crossing that prevent such accidents, then why not?
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 23, 2011 9:41:01 GMT -8
Let's hold it right there. We cannot build a bubble around people. If they are stupid enough to walk in front of a moving train and not look up, then they have lost the genetic lottery. You are right, we don't need to make everything 100% safe (and even grade-separated metros with automatic doors have some accidents), but there are ways to design grade crossings that are much safer. Even here the Gold Line has a much better safety record. And the Expo line will be even better. For a few million dollars, we could prevent a couple of deaths per year. Isn't that worth it, if only to prevent lawsuits, or to prevent delays to trains? And by cost per life saved, it would be much cheaper than many medical treatments (BTW, I work in the medical field, where we often spend 50,000 per year of life saved)
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 23, 2011 10:29:44 GMT -8
Wait, you want to slow everybody down? Because less than 1% of the population can't figure it out? You are kidding, right?
If not, I'll bite:
Can you imagine the effect on commerce if such a thing were actually passed? It would make Los Angeles the laughing stock of the world and business would flee in droves. It would be overturned within a year or less.
Also, even if it did pass, you can't fix stupid. People would still find a way to get maimed or killed. Slower traffic makes people more comfortable with taking risks. It might even have an inverse effect.
A certain percentage of the population will always kill themselves due to stupidity. It is lower percentage now than it has ever been, but as with anything, as we progress toward zero, the costs in cash and quality of life exponentially increase with very little measurable benefit.
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