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Post by metrocenter on Sept 12, 2011 8:36:04 GMT -8
If money is no object, the ideal solution is to build a new tunnel under Figueroa (rather than Flower), with a station at 12th Street. 12th/Figueroa is a much better location for the station, IMO, due to the number of attractions there. And this would eliminate the need for a crossing/overpass.
By doing this, the existing station at Pico could continue operating until the new tunnel/station are built. The only difficulty would be the tie-ins at the south (near Flower/Washington) and north (underground, near 9th/Flower).
Of course, I imagine this would cost at least $400 million. So due to the cost this is completely unrealistic.
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Post by rubbertoe on Sept 12, 2011 8:58:39 GMT -8
What's more likely is probably an extra platform or extra tracks at the existing Pico station, and some sort of walkway over to the stadium/ convention center. I would love for such a walkway to be elevated, a permanent, architecturally artistic bridge which would bring football fans and convention goers over to the station. This is in synch with the presentation that Jerard linked to. From a "least cost" way of thinking this is probably the way that it would work out. As LA points out, the distance isn't that great, my only concern would be that the station modification once done serves the purpose for years to come. Grade separation of the pedestrian bridge(s) from the LRT tracks I see as essential. A split platform as described in Concept #1 of Jerard's presentation seems most likely. While Concept 3 gives you 4 platforms, I don't see them doing the real estate take required for the platform on the West side of Flower South of Pico. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that having one or two pedestrian bridges from the station to the Staples area will make that piece of land in between one of the most densely populated areas for many days a year. Not sure who owns that, but it would sure be a great idea if they could incorporate the pedestrian bridge into their overall plans. They could have retail on both street level, and also on a second story that has direct access from the pedestrian bridge. I guess we will find out more details when the EIR comes out unless someone spills something before then. RT
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Post by bzcat on Sept 12, 2011 11:13:01 GMT -8
What is the world coming to when people cannot walk 2 - 3 blocks from the existing Pico station to the future Farmers Field, or current Staples Center and/or LA Live!? We are going to spend hundreds of millions for 2 blocks? Now, I am totally on the side of the Constellation/Santa Monica debate for Purple Line ($60 million for 1 block south)..that makes sense. The advantage of having a dedicated station and pocket track is that you can have trains waiting at the platform immediately after an event and avoid massive overcrowding. There is merit in the proposal... let's not dismiss it out of hand. The key is how much $ and who will pay for it of course. I'm often told in these parts that my ideas are not realistic because I tend to make "best case" suggestions. I think applying the same standards here would eliminate any underground or flyover option. It's ground level or nothing.
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Post by James Fujita on Sept 12, 2011 13:48:10 GMT -8
if you ignore the costs, then anything is possible. I sort of agree with LAofA in that you don't want to spend too much for a stub, especially if there are other solutions which would work equally as well. we do want to make it convenient for people to get to the Blue Line. where convenience is concerned, even a "reasonable 2-3 block walk" can be inconvenient if the alternative is the parking lot underneath LACC. I would go with the elevated walkway/ bridge to the station. that would be usable for all games at Farmers Field, Staples Center, events at L.A. Live and conventions at LACC without disrupting normal rail service. if that's not convenient enough, add some moving sidewalks something like that ought to be able to be integrated with whatever other plans developers may have for that block. call it the promenade level, similar to Long Beach where the convention center and the Long Beach Hyatt have promenade entrances.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 12, 2011 14:32:49 GMT -8
if you ignore the costs, then anything is possible. I sort of agree with LAofA in that you don't want to spend too much for a stub, especially if there are other solutions which would work equally as well. we do want to make it convenient for people to get to the Blue Line. where convenience is concerned, even a "reasonable 2-3 block walk" can be inconvenient if the alternative is the parking lot underneath LACC. I would go with the elevated walkway/ bridge to the station. that would be usable for all games at Farmers Field, Staples Center, events at L.A. Live and conventions at LACC without disrupting normal rail service. if that's not convenient enough, add some moving sidewalks something like that ought to be able to be integrated with whatever other plans developers may have for that block. call it the promenade level, similar to Long Beach where the convention center and the Long Beach Hyatt have promenade entrances. Exactly! Or should we provide shuttle bus service from Pico station to Farmers Field? Hahahahaha..... Pico station is already pretty darn convenient! But for some people, the thought of "5 of us in a car, we each chip in $2 each for parking..." <-- that's a common train of thought. With thousands of parking spaces, Metro rail will never be the sole player in the game. This is unlike many other urban stadiums which have significantly less parking than Staples. Lose the parking --> increase Metro rail ridership. The only problem I forsee with Pico station is overcrowding during games. To alleviate that, Metro will need to rush hour type of service for up to 1 hour after the game is over...meaning trains coming every 6 minutes. That'll work. I've been to other stadiums nationwide, as long as the service is reasonable, we can stick with the current configuration. Just modifications will be needed for that 1 hour AFTER game time. Use the resources for that.....not a stub for a single block, which will then disrupt patrons throughout the Metro rail system. Imagine if somebody is going from Expo Park/USC station to Chinatown (post connector)...this is going to be a pain if they end up in the stub...
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 12, 2011 16:07:36 GMT -8
if you ignore the costs, then anything is possible. I put the Figueroa-tunnel solution as an outside solution in terms of cost. My bigger point is: let's start with what we would want if money were no object, and then alter it to make it feasible. As an example, suppose Metro simply rebuilt the existing tracks on the west side of the street. Instantly, you eliminate one pedestrian crossing for the tens of thousands of people heading to events at LA Live on any given day. As a side benefit, it would eliminate the grade crossing at the 10 Freeway on-ramp. Of course, this would allow Metro to not just relocate the station, but add new features as well, including possibly new grade-separations or multiple platforms. And depending on the design, it might be buildable without fully stopping service on the existing tracks. So what are the costs? Wouldn't be cheap, since it would most likely require part of the Flower Street Tunnel to be rebuilt. But as redesign concepts go, I'm sure this is not the most expensive.
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Post by carter on Sept 12, 2011 18:20:22 GMT -8
The only problem I forsee with Pico station is overcrowding during games. To alleviate that, Metro will need to rush hour type of service for up to 1 hour after the game is over...meaning trains coming every 6 minutes. That'll work. I've been to other stadiums nationwide, as long as the service is reasonable, we can stick with the current configuration. Just modifications will be needed for that 1 hour AFTER game time. Use the resources for that.....not a stub for a single block, which will then disrupt patrons throughout the Metro rail system. Imagine if somebody is going from Expo Park/USC station to Chinatown (post connector)...this is going to be a pain if they end up in the stub... I think this is key. The "problem" we have is two-fold: 1) The Pico Station probably needs to upgraded in the long run to handle Expo and Connector traffic. The type of upgrade required is basically What Jerard and the Sierra Club outlined -- an additional platform and maybe an additional track. 2) The other issue is how do you manage peak demand right before and after game day. We're talking about a couple hours a week. It would not at all be cost-effective to build a very expensive piece of infrastructure only to meet peak travel demand and have it go under-used at other times. There are ways to address peak demand issues without building new things like tunnels and stubs. For instance, you could provide discounts to people who chose to leave an more than an hour after a game, who would then decide to just grab a post-game beer or whatever instead. Or you pay to run extra trains, as LAofA suggested, after games. That is all to say that there are existing operational solutions that are probably cheaper than infrastructural solutions. Final thought: I do agree that Pico Station will needs some upgrades in the medium-run, but let's not conflate that issue with the Farmers Field.
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Post by fissure on Sept 12, 2011 22:12:00 GMT -8
If I recall correctly, the regional connector is likely to have a pocket track north of 7th to allow for extra storage and a possible later infill station at 5th/Flower. This could be used to store trains for extra southbound/westbound service after events let out. South of 12th, you could then convert a lane of Flower to rail and use the existing southbound track as a pocket track for storing extra northbound/eastbound trains. Then you could widen the station over the current southbound track. Hopefully that would make it wide enough to service the crowd. Combined with the pedestrian bridge, this would give you many of the benefits of the stub across Figueroa, since you could absorb/produce extra trains when needed, but would probably be a lot cheaper.
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 12, 2011 23:39:05 GMT -8
Make Pico underground and build it as a 4 track, 2 platform station. Obviously the underground segment starts sough of the santa monica freeway, allowing the streetcar to operate downtown as well.
Why? Casual riders during crush loads (aka, stadiums crowds) are extremely slow. Just ask anyone from Boston or SF who has to deal with it on their light rail.
You need the extra tracks + platform space.
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Post by James Fujita on Sept 13, 2011 15:15:23 GMT -8
Final thought: I do agree that Pico Station will needs some upgrades in the medium-run, but let's not conflate that issue with the Farmers Field. Carter makes a good point here, which is we have to make sure that, at least as far as this discussion is concerned, what we propose is seen as useful and interesting to AEG. After, AEG is the reason why we're having this discussion. That said, I think there is something to be said for infrastructure as opposed to operational solutions. We will probably need both; but infrastructure can be a lot flashier than "we run more trains on game days." These people are building a football stadium, the NFL operates on style, snazz and status symbols. So, a shuttle bus would be cheap but too cheap, while elevated or underground tracks might* cost too much. (* might, not necessarily will...). A pedestrian promenade/ bridge/ walkway can attract attention without breaking the bank. Make it artistic with hanging cables, or lots of lights (safety and attracts attention), maybe even hang a billboard or two off of it, AEG likes that kind of thing. [EDIT: yeah, some of you will reject the billboard idea, but it totally fits AEG's reputation. what I'm thinking is aim it at drivers on Fig, rather than at the pedestrian bridge itself. ] And it wouldn't just be for the NFL, I want to see people headed for Anime Expo, the Lakers and E3 on the bridge, too. [ EDIT: And an extra track and platform for special events at Pico would be useful as well. ]
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Post by JerardWright on Sept 13, 2011 18:03:05 GMT -8
The only problem I forsee with Pico station is overcrowding during games. To alleviate that, Metro will need to rush hour type of service for up to 1 hour after the game is over...meaning trains coming every 6 minutes. That'll work. I've been to other stadiums nationwide, as long as the service is reasonable, we can stick with the current configuration. Just modifications will be needed for that 1 hour AFTER game time. Use the resources for that.....not a stub for a single block, which will then disrupt patrons throughout the Metro rail system. Imagine if somebody is going from Expo Park/USC station to Chinatown (post connector)...this is going to be a pain if they end up in the stub... I think this is key. The "problem" we have is two-fold: 1) The Pico Station probably needs to upgraded in the long run to handle Expo and Connector traffic. The type of upgrade required is basically What Jerard and the Sierra Club outlined -- an additional platform and maybe an additional track. 2) The other issue is how do you manage peak demand right before and after game day. We're talking about a couple hours a week. It would not at all be cost-effective to build a very expensive piece of infrastructure only to meet peak travel demand and have it go under-used at other times. There are ways to address peak demand issues without building new things like tunnels and stubs. For instance, you could provide discounts to people who chose to leave an more than an hour after a game, who would then decide to just grab a post-game beer or whatever instead. Or you pay to run extra trains, as LAofA suggested, after games. That is all to say that there are existing operational solutions that are probably cheaper than infrastructural solutions. Final thought: I do agree that Pico Station will needs some upgrades in the medium-run, but let's not conflate that issue with the Farmers Field. I would agree with that, the other component in this that LofA touched on is how this will operate. If a rush hour style schedule were to operate 60 minutes before the event and upwards to 90 minutes after the event that would handle a large demand of riders quickly without negatively impacting the rest of the network
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Post by jdrcrasher on Sept 13, 2011 20:50:52 GMT -8
Certainly undergrounding the Pico station and tracks down to the 10 freeway would do the maximum amount of good for the most amount of people, and I think that is something that may eventually need to be done. But I do wonder how well that addresses the specific issue at hand, which is getting people to/ from the Farmers Field stadium. Once the line is underground, I think the Pico Station should be moved to 11th Street. Then you can build a station entrance portal at LA Live, and connect the portal and station via 11th. At most, the distance between LA Live/Staples and a theoretical 11th Street Blue Line station is 500 ft. Plus, this could open the opportunity to integrate another entrance portal to whatever gets built on the LA Central site.
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Post by Justin Walker on Sept 13, 2011 20:52:20 GMT -8
A pedestrian promenade/ bridge/ walkway can attract attention without breaking the bank. Make it artistic with hanging cables, or lots of lights (safety and attracts attention), maybe even hang a billboard or two off of it, AEG likes that kind of thing. [EDIT: yeah, some of you will reject the billboard idea, but it totally fits AEG's reputation. what I'm thinking is aim it at drivers on Fig, rather than at the pedestrian bridge itself. ] And of course, bridging Figueroa is not unprecedented. Many may recall that for the recent 2011 X Games, four temporary pedestrian bridges were erected: The most impressive temporary bridge was the so-called Entrance Bridge: While I was thoroughly impressed by these temporary structures, the area will see many large events in the future; permanent pedestrian bridges will certainly perform better in any life-cycle cost analysis.
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Post by rubbertoe on Sept 25, 2011 7:03:06 GMT -8
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on May 2, 2013 13:06:22 GMT -8
Very nice little video of a foodie's trip on the Expo line.
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