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Post by matthewb on Oct 27, 2011 7:36:42 GMT -8
I would also point out that anyone taking the Red Line and going to Staples will still find the fastest route to be walking from 7th/Flower, since the streetcar is going the other way. There are still buses which from a travel perspective can do everything that the streetcar will do except with more coverage. Speaking of which they could replace the streetcar with dedicated, free buses for decades and move the same amount of people for far less money. I think it's about the redevelopment potential along the line, a la Portland. The smoother ride, permanence of the service, etc. provides an important psychological boost that has been proven time and time again to lead to higher ridership. Regarding a connection from the Red line to Staples Center, there's already as good a connection with the blue line to Pico as there would be if the streetcar would run counterclockwise. When Expo is up and running, this will be a very frequent service. |
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 27, 2011 8:15:51 GMT -8
I actually find Alternative 1 intriguing since this is a "circulator". It includes the financial district which will not have a regional connector station. I wish there was a "counterclockwise" alignment paired with it if this were the case.
But Alternative 7 has the lowest, or "best" score, and will probably be submitted as the LPA.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 27, 2011 8:41:02 GMT -8
Shawn, I'm not sure about your estimate of the Streetcar funds being able to run a comparable bus system for "decades". The rough cost of the streetcar system is about $100 million. It also costs about $5 million per year to operate. If you look at a comparable bus system, you would also need to look at operating costs, and the cost of buying and maintaining the bus fleet for the same period of time. I haven't worked the numbers out, but I have a hard time imagining $100 million dollars running free buses for decades. I could be wrong on this. I also agree with the poster who points out the redevelopment potential along the corridor that the streetcar brings relative to having buses along the same route. Even if it is a purely psychological boost by having streetcars versus buses, if you get people to use it and it contributes to the betterment of businesses in that entire corridor, it seems like a good investment. Thats something like 5 miles of street with streetcar access. Or 10 miles if you count both sides of the street. I'll bet you that a lot of those parking lots on Broadway will be transformed into better uses when the RC is done and people can get into the area much more easily without cars. A street lined with businesses is more inviting than a street lined with parking lots, and that evolution just feeds on itself over time. Compare Broadway with a Portland streetcar street, then imagine what it would be like if even a reasonable part of the streetcar route downtown looked like Portland. You're living in an apartment on top of both a Starbucks and a Safeway, and you're a 5 minute streetcar ride from Staples Center and LA Live...   |
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 27, 2011 12:28:57 GMT -8
So here is a nice project idea. This is assuming that the streetcar project ever comes to fruition. Prior to the start of any construction, mount a video camera in your car pointed out the rear side window, and drive the route of the streetcar. Videotape both sides of the street along the entire route. Then, on every 1 year anniversary of the completion of construction, do the same thing. Edit the two sets of footage so that the top window portion shows the "before" footage, and the bottom window shows the "after" footage simultaneously. Once you have the raw footage, piecing it together like this is pretty straight forward.
The finished product is an HD video showing all 10 miles of the streetcar route, with the before footage in the upper half and the after footage in the lower half. Kind of like a Google Maps street view, but using actual captured video. Best way that I can think of to document the changes in the neighborhood as a result of the project.
The organization that ends up building the line could hire some film school students to do this as a project, and the cost would be a small rounding error in the overall project budget. I'm sure it would run less than $10,000.
RT
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Post by masonite on Oct 27, 2011 12:53:44 GMT -8
So here is a nice project idea. This is assuming that the streetcar project ever comes to fruition. Prior to the start of any construction, mount a video camera in your car pointed out the rear side window, and drive the route of the streetcar. Videotape both sides of the street along the entire route. Then, on every 1 year anniversary of the completion of construction, do the same thing. Edit the two sets of footage so that the top window portion shows the "before" footage, and the bottom window shows the "after" footage simultaneously. Once you have the raw footage, piecing it together like this is pretty straight forward. The finished product is an HD video showing all 10 miles of the streetcar route, with the before footage in the upper half and the after footage in the lower half. Kind of like a Google Maps street view, but using actual captured video. Best way that I can think of to document the changes in the neighborhood as a result of the project. The organization that ends up building the line could hire some film school students to do this as a project, and the cost would be a small rounding error in the overall project budget. I'm sure it would run less than $10,000. RT Try 5 years and then I think it would be meaningful. In one year you can barely even get permits and what not to build or open a business. |
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Post by Quixote on Oct 27, 2011 14:44:23 GMT -8
It's a shame that they're going to go with 11th Street instead of Pico. All those missed opportunities for development.  Alternatives 1 and 5 are the best, IMO. |
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 27, 2011 15:17:03 GMT -8
It's a shame that they're going to go with 11th Street instead of Pico. All those missed opportunities for development. Alternatives 1 and 5 are the best, IMO. Pico is a diversion. We've gone through this before. 11th street is a much better pedestrian street. As somebody who lives downtown, Pico is just going into no-man's land east of Flower. I know you looking at development opportunities, but within 11th street boundaries, there's still plenty of work to be done. |
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Post by Quixote on Oct 27, 2011 16:22:20 GMT -8
It's a shame that they're going to go with 11th Street instead of Pico. All those missed opportunities for development. Alternatives 1 and 5 are the best, IMO. Pico is a diversion. We've gone through this before. 11th street is a much better pedestrian street. As somebody who lives downtown, Pico is just going into no-man's land east of Flower. I know you looking at development opportunities, but within 11th street boundaries, there's still plenty of work to be done. We should be planning for the long term, not the status quo. And the project area, as shown in one of the maps, stretches all the way down to Washington. There is no doubt that Pico provides better coverage. With 11th Street, you are not adequately serving the Convention Center and everything south of Pico. And it's not just 11th Street I'm unhappy about. I don't understand the value behing putting a streetcar on 7th Street. There's already a metro station there. It's redundant and a waste. We need the streetcar to serve new areas. |
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 27, 2011 17:12:34 GMT -8
We should be planning for the long term, not the status quo. And the project area, as shown in one of the maps, stretches all the way down to Washington. There is no doubt that Pico provides better coverage. With 11th Street, you are not adequately serving the Convention Center and everything south of Pico. And it's not just 11th Street I'm unhappy about. I don't understand the value behing putting a streetcar on 7th Street. There's already a metro station there. It's redundant and a waste. We need the streetcar to serve new areas. Streetcars work best when connected to Metro rail stations. It gives people the "last mile" connection. Imagine if you had freeways with no connections to city streets via exit ramps........does that make sense? Do you live in downtown LA? Pico is NOT a good street. You can say the same advocating for Venice, Washington or Adams, just getting further and further diverted. 11th street just makes sense. It's the perfect distance.......and it's a 1 block urban walk to the Convention Center entrance off 12th street......the main entrance. Pico is not even the main entrance, hence a confusion. As for 7th street, this is going to become our prime transit corridor in downtown. Bypassing 7th street is like bypassing Hollywood boulevard in Hollywood or 3rd street in Santa Monica or Colorado in Pasadena. 7th street is our east-west spine of downtown, just like Broadway our north-south. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 27, 2011 17:36:59 GMT -8
Shawn, I'm not sure about your estimate of the Streetcar funds being able to run a comparable bus system for "decades". The rough cost of the streetcar system is about $100 million. It also costs about $5 million per year to operate. If you look at a comparable bus system, you would also need to look at operating costs, and the cost of buying and maintaining the bus fleet for the same period of time. I haven't worked the numbers out, but I have a hard time imagining $100 million dollars running free buses for decades. I could be wrong on this. I also agree with the poster who points out the redevelopment potential along the corridor that the streetcar brings relative to having buses along the same route. Even if it is a purely psychological boost by having streetcars versus buses, if you get people to use it and it contributes to the betterment of businesses in that entire corridor, it seems like a good investment. Thats something like 5 miles of street with streetcar access. Or 10 miles if you count both sides of the street. It doesn't take much calculating. Bus operation cost would be about the same as the streetcar (probably less really) so you take the $6 million and buy 12 buses and that leaves enough left for 20 years of operation. Roughly more or less. I agree that this is a good project for downtown and will spur growth, but it's more of an entertainment/tourism project than a transit one. It offers no or at least very few benefits over buses from a transit perspective. The problem is that buses are a dirty word with many in LA and they really shouldn't be. The same people that ride the trains ride the buses. It's meant to attract riders that normally wouldn't consider riding a bus. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 27, 2011 17:48:53 GMT -8
There are still buses which from a travel perspective can do everything that the streetcar will do except with more coverage. Speaking of which they could replace the streetcar with dedicated, free buses for decades and move the same amount of people for far less money. I think it's about the redevelopment potential along the line, a la Portland. I agree with that. I don't doubt that more people will ride it, especially people that wouldn't otherwise ride transit, but the increase in ridership is really insignificant in the big picture. I look at it as one more piece in the puzzle in bringing back downtown. But I'm not convinced that it's worth it. |
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Post by carter on Oct 27, 2011 21:25:54 GMT -8
Shawn, I'm not sure about your estimate of the Streetcar funds being able to run a comparable bus system for "decades". The rough cost of the streetcar system is about $100 million. It also costs about $5 million per year to operate. If you look at a comparable bus system, you would also need to look at operating costs, and the cost of buying and maintaining the bus fleet for the same period of time. I haven't worked the numbers out, but I have a hard time imagining $100 million dollars running free buses for decades. I could be wrong on this. I also agree with the poster who points out the redevelopment potential along the corridor that the streetcar brings relative to having buses along the same route. Even if it is a purely psychological boost by having streetcars versus buses, if you get people to use it and it contributes to the betterment of businesses in that entire corridor, it seems like a good investment. Thats something like 5 miles of street with streetcar access. Or 10 miles if you count both sides of the street. It doesn't take much calculating. Bus operation cost would be about the same as the streetcar (probably less really) so you take the $6 million and buy 12 buses and that leaves enough left for 20 years of operation. Roughly more or less. I agree that this is a good project for downtown and will spur growth, but it's more of an entertainment/tourism project than a transit one. It offers no or at least very few benefits over buses from a transit perspective. The problem is that buses are a dirty word with many in LA and they really shouldn't be. The same people that ride the trains ride the buses. It's meant to attract riders that normally wouldn't consider riding a bus. The key to make it successful will be getting dedicated lanes for the streetcars to use -- and perhaps share with other transit vehicles and emergency vehicles. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 28, 2011 7:19:01 GMT -8
I guess. But those are busy bus streets. Being behind buses won't be very fast. One way that streetcars are inferior to buses is that they won't be able to go around a stopped bus. Unless the dedicated lane is in the middle of the street, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea.
I probably come across as more negative than I am. I don't oppose this project, but I'm not a booster either. It's a lot of money to spend for what you get. And speaking of money, are those of us in the county paying for this? Where's the taxpayer portion of the money supposed to come from? Will there be a bond initiative that will need to be passed? I don't recall this in Measure R.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2011 8:05:02 GMT -8
Streetcars are not valued for their speed; they're an easy hop on and hop off system. If you want speed to get around, either hop on a bus, drive a car, or Go Metro rail.
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 28, 2011 8:35:45 GMT -8
it is true that streetcars are not valued for their speed, but dedicated transit lanes would help the buses running on those streets as well.
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Post by masonite on Oct 28, 2011 9:02:42 GMT -8
I guess. But those are busy bus streets. Being behind buses won't be very fast. One way that streetcars are inferior to buses is that they won't be able to go around a stopped bus. Unless the dedicated lane is in the middle of the street, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I probably come across as more negative than I am. I don't oppose this project, but I'm not a booster either. It's a lot of money to spend for what you get. And speaking of money, are those of us in the county paying for this? Where's the taxpayer portion of the money supposed to come from? Will there be a bond initiative that will need to be passed? I don't recall this in Measure R. Having ridden the Portland streetcar, I must say I was pretty impressed. It can be a great development tool. Lets face it, Broadway, 7th Street, and others in Downtown were originally built with the streetcar as their focal transportation option, not cars, and streets like Broadway are really underutilized so it should make for a great addition from that standpoint. However, I do worry about our traffic as well, as Portland doesn't really have that problem. This is not in Measure R, and the financing is still up in the air, which is why this isn't starting construction anytime soon. I believe the City of Los Angeles has put a little bit of their own discretionary Measure R money in the pot, and the backers are hoping for a Tiger Grant for some of the funds as well as some private donations and potentially a property tax of the immediate stakeholders. Not that $110M is insignficant, but compared to nearly $2B for the Crenshaw Line, it really is small. |
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 28, 2011 9:14:40 GMT -8
Shawn, Back before the MTA took the lead from the private consortium that was proposing this, I believe that the idea was to create a tax district of the properties along the route. Not sure if that is still the plan or not. Good point about the interaction between: the streetcars, buses that might be using the same lanes, and emergency vehicles. 7th street is physically 6 lanes wide at a minimum the entire length from Figueroa to Broadway. Here is a typical shot of the width:  The Portland streetcar has some streets, like my previous picture, where it runs on one way streets along one side. There are other places where it runs on two way streets, on the lane normally used for traffic, with a parking lane right against the curb. I don't think that would work on a street like 7th. I would imaging that you would have the streetcar running right along the South curb the entire way down 7th. You would then turn 7th street into a one-way street going East, the same way that the streetcar is running. The lane used by the streetcar would be reserved for the streetcar and buses only. You could also restrict cars from making right turns, to prevent them from crossing the tracks. You would still have the problem of buses breaking down in that lane. If you wanted, you could have the buses use the other side of the street. On a busy street like 7th, I think that makes more sense. That way, both the streetcar and the buses run mostly unimpeded by each other. So, going from the South side of 7th street to the North you would have: 1 lane for the exclusive streetcar use, cars may or may not cross to turn right. 2 lanes for one way traffic going East on 7th. 1 lane for bus exclusive use. 1 extra wide lane, outside of where there would be bus stops, for allowing diagonal car parking that would accommodate delivery vehicles too. That increases the parking that you lose by having the streetcar only lane on the South side. Cars parking on the street would cross over the bus only lane to get into or out of the parking spaces. Doing this also provides a few feet of extra space, since the diagonal parking doesn't use 2 full lanes. A physical separator between the streetcar lane and the traffic lane would be good too. A 6" high, 9" wide yellow striped curb would let the drivers know that they should stay out of the streetcar lane. Also would cut down on the number of accidents involving the streetcars.  RT |
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2011 9:46:38 GMT -8
Folks - don't forget..........7th street is getting dedicated bike lanes really soon. You'll have to factor that into your analysis.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 28, 2011 12:13:23 GMT -8
I almost put a bike lane in, into my picture that is. I wasn't aware that they were going to do this anytime soon. If they keep the lane configuration as it is now, adding a bike lane will be challenging.
In my drawing, the best place for the bike lane would probably be right between the streetcar lane and the right traffic lane. You only need to worry about vehicles (cars) on one side then. If the cars aren't allowed right turns, the bike lane would be pretty fast moving.
RT
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 28, 2011 13:05:19 GMT -8
Streetcars are not valued for their speed; they're an easy hop on and hop off system. If you want speed to get around...hop on a bus... Post of the week!!  |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 28, 2011 13:09:49 GMT -8
According to Blogdowntown $60 million is supposed to come from property owners (seems like a lot), $11 million from the city of LA, and they are hoping for a $37.5 million Tiger Grant.
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Post by Quixote on Oct 28, 2011 19:58:51 GMT -8
We should be planning for the long term, not the status quo. And the project area, as shown in one of the maps, stretches all the way down to Washington. There is no doubt that Pico provides better coverage. With 11th Street, you are not adequately serving the Convention Center and everything south of Pico. And it's not just 11th Street I'm unhappy about. I don't understand the value behing putting a streetcar on 7th Street. There's already a metro station there. It's redundant and a waste. We need the streetcar to serve new areas. Streetcars work best when connected to Metro rail stations. It gives people the "last mile" connection. Imagine if you had freeways with no connections to city streets via exit ramps........does that make sense? Do you live in downtown LA? Pico is NOT a good street. You can say the same advocating for Venice, Washington or Adams, just getting further and further diverted. 11th street just makes sense. It's the perfect distance.......and it's a 1 block urban walk to the Convention Center entrance off 12th street......the main entrance. Pico is not even the main entrance, hence a confusion. As for 7th street, this is going to become our prime transit corridor in downtown. Bypassing 7th street is like bypassing Hollywood boulevard in Hollywood or 3rd street in Santa Monica or Colorado in Pasadena. 7th street is our east-west spine of downtown, just like Broadway our north-south. You're thinking of this streetcar as something that will "connect the dots", so to speak. I'm thinking of this streetcar as something that will "fill in the gaps". Look, all I'm saying is that Alternative 7 doesn't provide the coverage that some of the others do. And I mourn that. That's all. |
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Post by matthewb on Oct 29, 2011 3:59:16 GMT -8
Streetcars are not valued for their speed; they're an easy hop on and hop off system. If you want speed to get around, either hop on a bus, drive a car, or Go Metro rail. Streetcars are versatile. They can be anything from a tourist people mover, to a duplicate bus service, to something approaching light rail with speeds of 40-50 MPH in dedicated lanes. I think its most appropriate application in Los Angeles is to provide a level of service that is more comfortable (and hopefully higher capacity) than a bus, operating largely in its own lanes on major arterials, and then transitioning into a circulation through downtown and other built up areas (Hollywood, Santa Monica, Pasadena, Glendale, etc.). Some routes could just loop through downtown areas (with or without a dedicated lane), and others would follow a downtown loop followed by a longer trip along an arterial in its own lane. Think of how the streetcars worked in LA before they were stripped out. |
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 1, 2011 12:11:51 GMT -8
When I look at the streetcar proposal such as it currently exists, I don't see a re-creation of the Yellow Cars.
I see something much more along the lines of a circulator — not something to get people downtown, but a way to get around downtown once you've already arrived via car, subway, light rail or commuter train.
I can envision the streetcar eventually extending beyond downtown into the surrounding neighborhoods — say, up Sunset into Silver Lake. It's also possible for beach cities, Hollywood, other neighborhoods to get their own streetcar lines.
But beyond a certain distance, you're stepping into territory best suited to light rail. For now, we should concentrate on the core — Broadway, Grand/ Bunker Hill and the convention center/ L.A. Live. Even Chinatown/ Union Station would probably be a step too far for the time being.
EDIT: preferences — Alternate 4 (Broadway/Hill, 11th), Alternate 7 (more of Fig, 7th Street), but intrigued by Alternate 2 jumping up Grand.
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regen
Junior Member
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Post by regen on Feb 21, 2012 23:11:17 GMT -8
Check out the latest post on the Human Transit blog: "One-way splits as symbolic transit" Jarrett Walker explains why splitting transit service onto multiple parallel streets actually reduces its coverage area for riders. Hopefully, the LA Streetcar concept can be improved by incorporating this key aspect of design. The economic case for having it on a single street, rather than being separated by multiple blocks, would be on farebox recovery vs. subsidies. www.humantransit.org/2012/02/one-way-splits-as-symbolic-transit.html |
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Post by James Fujita on Feb 22, 2012 1:36:39 GMT -8
In theory, I agree with you.
However, I think we have to consider that the people in charge of this project have put a lot of time and effort into getting both political and financial backers to support the streetcar idea.
The streetcar organizers deserve a lot of credit for navigating reluctant and sometimes skeptical downtown interests, and coming up with several possible sources for funding what is not a Metro project.
Of course, the more players that you have at the table, each with vested interests, the more people with demands and concerns that you have to satisfy. It's fairly obvious that the routes proposed are a result of this process.
For whatever reason, bi-directional operation on Broadway has been determined a non-starter. The best we can hope for is a route which would let people off at the front entrance to Grand Central Market — just to name a destination — and let them back on at the back entrance, depending on if you think GCM faces Broadway or Hill.
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 25, 2012 9:10:31 GMT -8
Broadway is a 2-way street. The streetcar should run both ways on Broadway, if we build it at all. The buses run both ways on broadway, so why should the streetcar be forced to make a loop?
I now live in Portland, and I've got to say I think the streetcar has gotten far too much credit for redevelopment in the Pearl district. The Pearl area is nice, and I wish I could afford the rent to live there. But the streetcar is no faster than the buses that it parallels. Walking from the Pearl to the nearest MAX train station is almost always faster than waiting for a streetcar and transferring. And riding a bike is much faster.
Perhaps we should work harder to improve the experience of riding the bus along Broadway. There are already multiple, frequent bus lines on Broadway which will get you to multiple places throughout the city. We don't need rails and overhead wires to have good transit on Broadway.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Feb 27, 2012 18:54:35 GMT -8
Could we reroute any buses in the area off of the streetcar route? would that help make a 2 way streetcar more viable?
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 27, 2012 20:32:02 GMT -8
...Perhaps we should work harder to improve the experience of riding the bus along Broadway. There are already multiple, frequent bus lines on Broadway which will get you to multiple places throughout the city. We don't need rails and overhead wires to have good transit on Broadway. I'll spare you the standard why "rail is better than buses" prattle you hear here. (I believe it and would urge the streetcar's return on Broadway in both directions. One way is nutty.) But this was my neighborhood. I lived on Broadway and 9th until a year ago - in fact my building had streetcar eyebolts! Here's the thing about buses there: The streets are so tight in the general area you get to HATE them - not because they are uncomfortable to ride, it's 'cause they are loud and it's worse with the tight corridors. Anywhere you sit outside for a coffee or a snack becomes unbearable with buses. Especially these screaming, whistling engines they have. The engines are so loud it makes conversation impossible, and creates an entirely unacceptable din. A streetcar would not only attract scads of folks for the novelty, (especially if it were historic), but if buses could be moved off to Hill St Broadway would be useable for *gasp* people! Try walking up Broadway now and try to have a conversation when there are three buses bearing down on you. It ain't happening. Streetcars are the quietest thing on the road. Peace is something we need. |
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Post by jamesinclair on Feb 28, 2012 0:40:29 GMT -8
[ Here's the thing about buses there: The streets are so tight in the general area you get to HATE them - not because they are uncomfortable to ride, it's 'cause they are loud and it's worse with the tight corridors. Anywhere you sit outside for a coffee or a snack becomes unbearable with buses. Especially these screaming, whistling engines they have. The engines are so loud it makes conversation impossible, and creates an entirely unacceptable din. Try walking up Broadway now and try to have a conversation when there are three buses bearing down on you. It ain't happening. Streetcars are the quietest thing on the road. Peace is something we need. Youre not talking about bs vs streetcar. Youre talking about diesel (or CNG) engines vs electric. The streetcar could be diesel, and the buses could be electric, throwing your whole argument around. The soruce of power has nothing to do with what makes a bus a bus. |
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