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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 28, 2012 6:17:25 GMT -8
Youre not talking about bs vs streetcar. Youre talking about diesel (or CNG) engines vs electric. The streetcar could be diesel, and the buses could be electric, throwing your whole argument around. The soruce of power has nothing to do with what makes a bus a bus. I'm talking about Los Angeles, not hypotheticals. It's highly unlikely Metro would install diesel powered streetcars. Electric buses are more likely - which would solve the problem. In any case, this is in addition to the other benefits of a streetcar (better ride, larger capacity, better social cache).
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 28, 2012 9:56:07 GMT -8
Youre not talking about bs vs streetcar. Youre talking about diesel (or CNG) engines vs electric. The streetcar could be diesel, and the buses could be electric, throwing your whole argument around. The soruce of power has nothing to do with what makes a bus a bus. I'm talking about Los Angeles, not hypotheticals. It's highly unlikely Metro would install diesel powered streetcars. Electric buses are more likely - which would solve the problem. In any case, this is in addition to the other benefits of a streetcar (better ride, larger capacity, better social cache). Streetcars bring redevelopment and density, which brings in greater tax revenues for the city. Buses do not. This has kinda been proven in every city in the world. Kind of hard to argue buses will make the same impact
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Post by James Fujita on Feb 28, 2012 16:30:09 GMT -8
I don't think we have to worry about a bus vs. rail argument here. This is not a Metro project. There's no "traffic management" alternative. It's going to be streetcar or bust.
In fact, I would daresay that this streetcar is supported by AEG, Eli Broad, Caruso and just about every downtown business organization, major player and downtown politician precisely because it is a streetcar.
The Regional Connector should be so lucky as to have such broad support.
[ EDIT: Of course, I'm not trying to compare the Regional Connector with the Streetcar, which will serve different purposes. However, it would be nice if RC had that sort of support. ]
Of course, the public/ private partnership aspect of it is probably why it will not be two-way on Broadway. Metro generally says what it wants and then goes out and seeks community support and input. This started out with the basic idea of a streetcar and then immediately went after downtown investors. If AEG wants it to go to the convention center (which is a good idea), the streetcar will go to the convention. If Broad wants the streetcar out in front of his museum (not a bad idea) it will go to Grand.
If investors don't show an interest in two-way operation, I think the best we expect is demand Broadway/Hill instead of the other proposals.
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Post by RMoses on Oct 22, 2013 12:58:38 GMT -8
City Hall staff kept quiet on L.A. streetcar red flags. Months before the L.A. streetcar project's additional expenses became public, City Hall staff members quietly warned the cost estimate was not detailed and could rise, a Times review has found. Faced with a budget shortfall of up to (at least) $200MM, LA's modern day trolley project could (will) see years of delays. LA Times Article
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Post by John Ryan on Oct 22, 2013 14:34:30 GMT -8
Cancel it
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Post by Philip on Oct 23, 2013 10:24:31 GMT -8
^ Yup. Much as I hate to see it go away, they shot themselves in the foot. What a waste.
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Post by skater on Oct 26, 2013 9:10:39 GMT -8
Today, the times published some letters in the opinion section, under the title, "streetcar undesired" just blasting the streetcar. One of the letters seemed to think that money was being taken from other rail projects to fund the streetcar. Definitely, we need to write letters to the times in favor of the streetcar.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 26, 2013 10:13:33 GMT -8
Today, the times published some letters in the opinion section, under the title, "streetcar undesired" just blasting the streetcar. One of the letters seemed to think that money was being taken from other rail projects to fund the streetcar. Definitely, we need to write letters to the times in favor of the streetcar. You can only build a mile of light-rail and a quarter mile of subway with the $350 million needed for streetcar. So, other rail projects aren't really more cost-effective.
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Post by gatewaygent on Oct 26, 2013 20:09:10 GMT -8
I'm probably asking for it, but what the heck.... If this project is scrapped, can't they take these funds and add them to the Connector Project for the 4th/5th Street Station that isn't currently funded?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2013 8:28:42 GMT -8
I'm probably asking for it, but what the heck.... If this project is scrapped, can't they take these funds and add them to the Connector Project for the 4th/5th Street Station that isn't currently funded? The only funds currently available are $10M from the CRA specifically designed for a streetcar. They may/could reappropriate those funds, but some has been spent already on the studies. There's no other funds available for the streetcar. Downtown residents taxed themselvees to raise between $62.5M - $85M specifically for a streetcar, so those funds cannot be appropriated to a regional connector, unless sent back to the residents for another vote. There is no money allocated from the state or federal government from the streetcar. So, at the most likely, you're looking at maybe $9M for the regional connector.
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Post by gatewaygent on Oct 29, 2013 14:06:18 GMT -8
Interesting.... I just received this: ----------------------------------------------- gallery.mailchimp.com/5b69ddf16f89639e389d9608b/images/SC_updateflyerEmail_resize_crop_web.jpgPlease Attend a Community Update on the Streetcar Monday, November 4th at 6pm Ronald F. Deaton Civic Auditorium L.A.P.D. Headquarters / Admin. Building 100 W. 1st St. (across from City Hall) Hear About: Environmental Process Progress to Date Local & Federal Requirements Upcoming Milestones For Questions or to arrange a translator* Contact info@lastreetcar.org or 213.814.2994 Informal Discussion — 6pm Remarks By Los Angeles City Councilmember José Huizar Presentation followed by Q&A — 6:30pm *Please request translation accommodations by October 31st ---------------------------------------------------
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Post by gatewaygent on Oct 1, 2014 14:52:10 GMT -8
I'm confused. I thought this thing was shelved. Is it being unshelved? Anyway, it's about a year later; and here's a text copy of the event invite. I won't attend. I'm starting to believe L.A. is just not ready to share vehicle lanes with street cars. I'd rather see a 2-track game day spur on Pico Bl. that doubles as an off-season layover for cars coming in from East L.A. and Pasadena.
---------------------------------- Please Attend a Community Update on the L.A. Streetcar
Monday, October 6th at 6pm Ronald F. Deaton Civic Auditorium L.A.P.D. Headquarters / Admin. Building 100 W. 1st St. (across from City Hall)
Hear About:
Environmental Process Progress to Date Local & Federal Requirements Upcoming Milestones
For Questions or to arrange a translator* Contact info@lastreetcar.org or 213.814.2994
Informal Discussion — 6pm Remarks By Los Angeles City Councilmember José Huizar Presentation followed by Q&A — 6:30pm
*Please request translation accommodations by October 2nd
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 1, 2014 16:06:30 GMT -8
I'm confused. I thought this thing was shelved. Is it being unshelved? Anyway, it's about a year later; and here's a text copy of the event invite. I won't attend. I'm starting to believe L.A. is just not ready to share vehicle lanes with street cars. I'd rather see a 2-track game day spur on Pico Bl. that doubles as an off-season layover for cars coming in from East L.A. and Pasadena. The Downtown LA community passed a tax increase at 74% in 2012...its coming. Not a question. Studies were just released last month, now promoting 7th street over 9th street for the east-west portion. Downtowners want the streetcar. It's not "this or that"....I would prefer rail lines, bike lanes and bus only lanes everywhere too, but if we don't put in a rail line, it's more car space for cars (more traffic, more auto policies, less pedestrian friendliness, etc...) A never ending vicious cycle. A streetcar is just another option to get around LA's growing densest community.
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Post by gatewaygent on Oct 1, 2014 21:05:22 GMT -8
I guess there can't continue to be a trendy DTLA vibe without the promise and implementation of a cool, new way of getting around. Good for them. So long as it doesn't impede the construction of future LRT/HRT lines through DTLA.
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Post by culvercitylocke on Oct 2, 2014 10:40:40 GMT -8
Best case scenario, the streetcar opens the possibility of grade separating the shared expo blue tracks.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 2, 2014 15:35:54 GMT -8
Studies were just released last month, now promoting 7th street over 9th street for the east-west portion. Released? What was released? DEIR is still in progress and definitely not been released.
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Post by numble on Jul 25, 2018 7:03:54 GMT -8
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Post by bzcat on Jul 26, 2018 15:28:15 GMT -8
23 stations and the ridership is still only 4,000 riders a day?
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Post by exporider on Jul 27, 2018 10:10:50 GMT -8
23 stations and the ridership is still only 4,000 riders a day? Why the surprise? Do you think if they doubled the number of stations, that would double the ridership forecast? No, it would decrease the ridership forecast, because the route would operate even slower. The way to maximize ridership potential for an urban streetcar service like this is to find the right balance between coverage (the amount of area and number of potential riders served by each station location) and travel time, which of course is dependent on the operating speed and dwell times at stations. When you squeeze more and more stations onto the alignment you reach a point of diminishing returns when station spacing is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 mile per station. The 3.8 mile alignment described includes 23 stations, or one station every 1/6th of a mile. The purpose of this project isn't mobility, it's visibility. Existing DASH services are capable of providing all of the mobility benefits that this streetcar can provide, but they aren't sexy enough to attract the economic development and tourism that this project is intended to attract.
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Post by gatewaygent on Jul 29, 2018 19:21:08 GMT -8
Oh gawd, this thing again? OK, let's do this: No! Let's not build this. Let's put this back on the shelf until this thing can connect the burgeoning and trendy, new Arts District to the rest of DTLA.
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Post by brady12 on Jul 31, 2018 14:35:00 GMT -8
Torn on this. On one hand save this money for worth while projects - on the other hand it’s a relatively small amount of money. This could be especially effective if the Expo and Blue lines from Washington-7th are put underground AND the WSAB goes the Downtown route for its Northern portion. If that happens then this can effectively connect all the downtown stations in much more localized fashion. Getting people the finally leg of the route from the stations to their job, club, bar, restaurant, or whatever their destination might be.
Might want to consider lessening the number of stations
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expo
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by expo on Jul 31, 2018 16:27:56 GMT -8
... at slower speeds than a bus. It's projected to average between 5.7 and 6.5 mph. Dash would work much better for the firs/last mile solution you're talking about.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 1, 2018 12:35:24 GMT -8
To me, a route must have heavily-used bus service prior to creating a more premium service (like streetcar or rail). Otherwise, you risk building an expensive line with underwhelming ridership.
This is why the Purple Line makes so much sense: Wilshire Blvd is the busiest transit corridor in L.A. It is a proven transit corridor. Similar for the Crenshaw corridor. And the Orange Line.
(Note: it is absolutely confounding to me that there is no bus service along the Regional Connector route. Metro should be training people right now to take their existing line to 7th/Metro or Little Tokyo, and then transfer to the Regional Connector Bus up and over Bunker Hill. But I digress.)
This streetcar route does not currently exist in any form. There is no existing passenger base (that I know of) asking for a streetcar. Bluntly, there is no need to build this. Therefore, there can be no reasonable expectation of ridership. It is rail design by committee, not based on reality.
I say kill it. It is not worth the damage it will inflict on the streetscape.
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Post by JerardWright on Aug 1, 2018 15:48:50 GMT -8
(Note: it is absolutely confounding to me that there is no bus service along the Regional Connector route. Metro should be training people right now to take their existing line to 7th/Metro or Little Tokyo, and then transfer to the Regional Connector Bus up and over Bunker Hill. But I digress.) This streetcar route does not currently exist in any form. There is no existing passenger base (that I know of) asking for a streetcar. Bluntly, there is no need to build this. Therefore, there can be no reasonable expectation of ridership. It is rail design by committee, not based on reality. I say kill it. It is not worth the damage it will inflict on the streetscape. A portion of this route mimics Lines 28 and 30 which are busy corridors however it is only the Downtown Routing that is similar plus a lot of the moves to remove the bus service ON BROADWAY is coming back to bite the study in the backside because it is the very reason like you articulate is the justification for a streetcar alignment. As for Regional Connector there are a number of services that are already in place that Blue and Expo lines use to transfer to mimic service to Bunker Hill(DASH A or Metro Red/Purple and Silver Line), Civic Center (DASH A, Metro Red/Purple and Silver Lines), Little Tokyo (DASH A)
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Post by bzcat on Aug 1, 2018 17:14:47 GMT -8
(Note: it is absolutely confounding to me that there is no bus service along the Regional Connector route. Metro should be training people right now to take their existing line to 7th/Metro or Little Tokyo, and then transfer to the Regional Connector Bus up and over Bunker Hill. But I digress.) DASH A connects Metro Center with Little Tokyo via Bunker Hill and 1st Street. DASH B connects Metro Center with Civic Center and City Hall via Temple Street. Both of these are your "regional connector bus". While I agree with you in general that rail should be build where there is already transit demand, I don't think in this particular case the Metro needs to "train" people to transfer on the regional connector route. Most of the people riding Metro to Metro Center or Little Tokyo already know how to transfer to DASH to make it to Bunker Hill or Civic Center. Regional connector will make a different for thru commuters - for example, people who are traveling from East LA to Mid City/West Side/Santa Monica. Those people are not taking Metro rail to Little Tokyo right now and make 2 or 3 transfers to get to where they need to go. They are taking a direct seat on a 720 bus or a 1-transfer ride from 720 to Expo or 720 to 733 or 720 to BBB 10.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 2, 2018 7:22:58 GMT -8
DASH A connects Metro Center with Little Tokyo via Bunker Hill and 1st Street. DASH B connects Metro Center with Civic Center and City Hall via Temple Street. Both of these are your "regional connector bus". DASH A bypasses Bunker Hill, and DASH B bypasses Little Tokyo. To go between Bunker Hill and Little Tokyo, youre better off just walking. (Its a 25-minute walk.) As a future RC user, it’s a pet peeve of mine. Anyway, the Regional Connector is an exception, because its not a new line but an extension of existing lines. It will be successful because it turns three lines into one through system. Back OT I just think this streetcar is trying to do too many things, but it doesnt do anything well. Mainly it’s too slow.
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Post by masonite on Aug 2, 2018 8:42:44 GMT -8
DASH A connects Metro Center with Little Tokyo via Bunker Hill and 1st Street. DASH B connects Metro Center with Civic Center and City Hall via Temple Street. Both of these are your "regional connector bus". DASH A bypasses Bunker Hill, and DASH B bypasses Little Tokyo. To go between Bunker Hill and Little Tokyo, youre better off just walking. (Its a 25-minute walk.) As a future RC user, it’s a pet peeve of mine. Anyway, the Regional Connector is an exception, because its not a new line but an extension of existing lines. It will be successful because it turns three lines into one through system. Back OT I just think this streetcar is trying to do too many things, but it doesnt do anything well. Mainly it’s too slow. Yeah, I don't think the Regional Connector needs to replace a bus line to be successful. I think everyone knows there is demand for it as a way to avoid transfers and to access Bunker Hill and so forth. I want to like the Downtown Streetcar. However, I am more on the position that no transit is better than bad transit. Of course, a streetcar isn't really transit. It is more about real estate development, tourism, etc... I'd be more in favor of it, if it were built more like a replica of the old Red or Yellow cars and maybe if it went along a street like Broadway that was then made pedestrian/streetcar only.
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