CRA's Downtown Red Car Feasibility Study

[Elson]

Knock yourselves out, folks:

www.crala.org/internet-site/Documents/other_documents.cfm

[joequality]

Impressive.

A lot of DTC ideas can be seen in the various conceptual routes, especially the top part of #2.

I'm not good with engineering, but would these tracks/trains be compatible with the current light-rail system? I'm guessing the tracks are the same gauge at least....

[Adrian Auer-Hudson]

We would have to be crazy to introduce another track gauge. Even if we bring back a "Yellow" car line, this time it should be standard gauge.

A true streetcar would utilize trolley poles not pantographs. Shared track sections would call for some complex catenary.

Platform height could be an issue.

In truth, the red cars should serve routes with more frequent stops than our current light rail network.

Moreover, there will not be capacity for street cars on Flower after Expo service commences.

My 0.02


Adrian

[James Fujita]

I haven't had the chance to read all of the materials, but it looks like the CRA people have done their homework. Both the Market Street F-Line and the Portland Streetcar are excellent examples of how a streetcar line can be a positive addition to a downtown without interfering with the mass transit operations of a light rail system.

I'd tend to agree with Adrian. best case scenario would be either a low-floor modern streetcar or a historic red car line, but one that does not directly interact with the blue line or gold line.

undoubtedly, the gauge should be the same (probably with some connections for emergency purposes) but there's no reason why the downtown connector use the same tracks.

[Elson]

jfujita said:

I haven't had the chance to read all of the materials, but it looks like the CRA people have done their homework. Both the Market Street F-Line and the Portland Streetcar are excellent examples of how a streetcar line can be a positive addition to a downtown without interfering with the mass transit operations of a light rail system.

I'd tend to agree with Adrian. best case scenario would be either a low-floor modern streetcar or a historic red car line, but one that does not directly interact with the blue line or gold line.

undoubtedly, the gauge should be the same (probably with some connections for emergency purposes) but there's no reason why the downtown connector use the same tracks.

The voltage spec for the catenary would have to be the same though. Metro Rail Vehicles (both heavy and light rail) run on 750v DC wire or 3rd rail. The Red Car lines had various voltages, but most of them ran on 600v DC.

I'm going to Portland next week and will check out that streetcar thing.

Though I'm almost certain that our Downtown trolley would inevitably have to be re-creations of the Red Cars. The San Pedro line set a healthy precedent.

[James Fujita]

hmmmm. I wonder if that voltage problem could be bridged. I mean, for the sort of operation that we are talking about, riders aren't going to be "looking under the hood" to make sure that the electrical systems are authentically lower-voltage ^_^;;

the only trouble with using the San Pedro Red Car line as a model is that the most "authentic" Red Cars are completely out of compliance with modern handicap requirements.
the San Pedro line solved that problem by building station platforms, which works fine on the Harbor Boulevard trackage, but might cause problems on the more crowded streets of downtown. (frankly, I think the platforms look silly, but that's beside the point)

Portland gets around this problem by using modern streetcars. San Francisco uses PCC cars which are historic (although obviously less historic than a PE "blimp" or the woodie streetcars used in San Pedro) and from what I understand, these PCC cars are both low-floor and wheelchair accessible.

according to Wikipedia, the PCCs are even compatible with the rest of the Muni system, so apparently streetcar lines can be historic and still connect with a city's light rail system (if so desired, or if necessary)

this solution might not satisfy purists, but it does represent a reasonable compromise. there aren't enough authentic Red Cars remaining in existance to operate a downtown shuttle, so even if we go the "San Pedro route" (so to speak), we're still dealing with replicas, assuming you want 10 minute wait times and not the ridiculous waits on the San Pedro line.

[movietroll]

First Post!

I just had a quick question concerning the low-floor PCC's. If the system is ever built couldn't they use the ol' Hollywood Cars? By looking at some pictures it looks like they are just as low as a PCC. The Hollywood Cars could fit better with our history then a PCC and couldn't a replica be built that meets the handicap requirements or is there something else that's missing that I do not know about?

PS Here is a link to the OERM website that shows what I am talking about:

www.oerm.org/images/PE%20716%20sm.JPG

[Elson]

jfujita said:

Portland gets around this problem by using modern streetcars. San Francisco uses PCC cars which are historic (although obviously less historic than a PE "blimp" or the woodie streetcars used in San Pedro) and from what I understand, these PCC cars are both low-floor and wheelchair accessible.

according to Wikipedia, the PCCs are even compatible with the rest of the Muni system, so apparently streetcar lines can be historic and still connect with a city's light rail system (if so desired, or if necessary)

I hve actually ridden on the SF Market Street PCCs. The stops have small platforms with ramps to allow wheelchair accessibility.

[whitmanlam]

Can these trolleys ever run on an LRT track to get to a maintenance yard or something. It would be tough finding a space in Downtown LA that can accommodate the Red Cars and provide maintenance infrastructure.

[James Fujita]

Elson: it's been a while, but I think I've seen those small platforms you're talking about. there's no comparison to those large station platforms that they have in San Pedro.

if we want to build a streetcar line in downtown Los Angeles, we can't afford to waste valuable street space with big platforms. I like the old wooden streetcars, but we have to take these things into account.

**

as for the Hollywood Cars, it has been a while since I've been to the Orange Empire museum (such a long way down there to Perris, oi), but it seems like those might work. of course, it would have to be replicas as I'm sure there wouldn't be enough authentic ones. don't ask me where we get the replicas, "I'm a transit fan, not an engineer!"

in "A Short History of Nearly Everything" (a great book, BTW), Bill Bryson points out that nearly all dinosaur fossils on display at almost all natural history museums are fakes. the museums are not intellectually dishonest; there simply aren't enough authentic fossils to go around. fossils are hard to find (and represent only a small percentage of all life on earth)historic trolley builders face essentially the same problem.
if you've ever seen the pictures of dozens of trolley cars stacked up like logs, it seems almost malicious how they destroyed all the old ones. almost as if they knew that someday, somebody might try to revive them and they wanted to destroy the evidence.....

[bobdavis]

Much as I would love to see a fleet of PE Hollywood cars running in LA, I suspect that finding a builder who could replicate 1920's manufacturing techniques would be a challenge. Perhaps in Russia or one of the Eastern European countries there would be the sort of industrial plant that could do the castings and ironwork of that era. It could probably be done here in the USA, but a lot of our capacity for this kind of work has been allowed to fade away. One consideration would be how many cars would be needed--setting up production would be the most expensive part of the job, and set-up charges don't look quite as formidable when spread over a larger production run. Would any other city be interested? Portland had some second-hand PE cars, and St. Louis had some built to the same design (none survive). Melbourne, Australia has dozens of out of service trams of the 1920's style (I think some were built in the 50's) that could be modified into PE-style cars, but the Aussies aren't allowing them to be exported at this time. We nostalgiacs may just have to realize that this is a new century and if we want downtown streetcars, they'll look more like European vacuum cleaners than trolley cars.

[James Fujita]

you make an excellent point, bob. both of San Pedro's replicas were built by volunteer hobbyists and it took FOREVER to get the job done, and that was just two trolleys. a downtown L.A. trolley line would need a lot more than that, although probably not a whole "fleet" but at least enough that if you wanted to take a trolley ride on your lunch break, you wouldn't have to wait a half-hour to catch one.

I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be some manufacturer somewhere in the U.S. capable of making a reasonable replice of a Hollywood Car, although again, the whole economy of scale problem ("cheaper by the dozen") comes into play.

which brings us back to the "vacuum cleaners" and really, what's wrong with vacuum cleaners? light rail manufacturers finally figured out how to build trains that weren't so square and boxy.

[movietroll]

Very interesting points to the issue of obtaining replicas, on a side note I emailed Robert Arends of The South Group on this issue the other day and got this response.

====

Thanks for your feedback; we’ll send it on to the developers.



And, FYI: look for a guest column in an upcoming issue of LA Downtown News by Homer Williams (of The South Group and Williams & Dame Development) on this exact issue. Williams & Dame is responsible for a very successful upcoming tram project in their hometown of Portland, Oregon!



Here’s a link to their website: www.wddcorp.com



All the best,

Robert Arends

====

I find this very interesting and look forward to the next Downtown News to find how what Homer will disuss. I do know not to get my hopes on this but who knows. Anyways I just thought I would share this with all of you.

[bobdavis]

My comments on the aesthetic qualities of modern vs. traditional streetcar designs are those of a railfan and PE enthusiast. The average rider usually doesn't care what a streetcar (or bus for that matter) looks like. What he or she wants is something reliable, clean (both the vehicle and the passengers), comfortable and running on schedule. Whether it looks like a Toonerville Trolley or something from Star Trek is a minor consideration.

[wad]

bobdavis said:

Much as I would love to see a fleet of PE Hollywood cars running in LA, I suspect that finding a builder who could replicate 1920's manufacturing techniques would be a challenge.

New Orleans' RTA builds its own streetcars. People love the historic look, but the cars aren't made anymore. So RTA has craftsmen who build good replicas of the streetcars. Although, with Katrina, it's unknown if NORTA still has this capacity.

[bobdavis]

A note of correction on the San Pedro Red Cars: construction of the replicas (500 & 501) was started by a company in the Seattle area that had done some other historic railway work. For various reasons, they could not complete the job, and the bodies were shipped to a vacant dockside warehouse in Wilmington. Construction was finished by workers from the LA Harbor Dept., including woodworkers who normally worked on much more mundane projects, but who recaptured skills from a hundred years ago. The "real" Red Car, PE 1058 was built in the 60's from an older type of car to match the first cars built for the San Bernardino Line. For many years it ran on rubber tires, powered by a Chrysler industrial engine. It appeared at parades and in movies (with camera angles chosen to hide the highway running gear). With the start of the San Pedro project, electric railway trucks were bought from a Japanese railway, and electric control apparatus and modern air brake equipment were installed.

[Mac]

I couldn't read the article because of the problems with my internet browser, but would the route be the same as the original P.E. route?

[LAofAnaheim]

A fellow blogger from Skyscraper Forum went to an AEG presentation for LA Live. It was noted that the developer (AEG) is interested in possibly funding the trolley project. This is blog heresay, so I cannot confirm this..but it would be nice. As long as they connect the OBD, South Park, and the Financial District, then we would have a successful line. Heck, even connecting it to the Little Tokyo Gold Line station would be great as well!

[Bert Green]

That would be a great development, but I am not sure it is true. I was told that AEG wants to fund a DASH bus, not a trolley, so it may be that the spokesperson, who probably drove there, does not know the difference between a trolley and a DASH shuttle bus. This was info I received after I worked with DLANC to get the Art Walk DASH. AEG thought it would be a great way to circulate people to and from LA Live from the downtown residential communities after seeing how easy it was to arrange.

[roberto]

I just read that the Red Car project got added to the master plans for the "Bringing Back Broadway" project, where they want to refurbish the theaters on Broadway and also bring in more nightlife and entertainment venues. They have added Red Cars to the artist's depiction of what Broadway will supposedly look like when the project is complete (imagine New York's 5th Avenue with Red Cars running down the middle), but the website really doesn't have much in the way of details on anything yet. I assume it's still under construction.

They also supposedly got more money allocated for more studies on the project, so it looks like this may actually happen in the next 10 years or so, as support from Downtown residents and businesses is high. It shouldn't conflict at all with the Downtown Connector, since its main east-west spine is supposed to be 7th Street (which is going to be LA's future Downtown "Restaurant Row") while the DTC is more of a Bunker Hill/North Downtown project. And getting over to the LA Live area would cross over Flower north of where the Blue Line comes out of the trench, so no conflict with Blue/Expo traffic either.

The whole purpose of this project is to bring a little bit of history and charm back to the Downtown area, and also provide a fun (albeit slow) way to get around the neighborhood, which should in turn attract more pedestrians (both locals and tourists), who would spend more time and money walking around Downtown. Even most LA locals don't even know LA was developed around streetcars, it's a huge part of our history that has been completely lost to the freeways ... I always have to point out to people why San Vicente and Hungtington Drive have those huge islands in the middle (they were train tracks), and also why there are those weird rounded intersections around some older parts of town (like where Santa Monica Blvd and Sunset meet at Sunset Junction) ... those corners were rounded and some streets were angled so the streetcars could make the turns.

Also the Red Cars would provide access to neighborhoods that Metro Rail will probably never service, like the Fashion District. It is not intended to transport passengers rapidly THROUGH Downtown between 2 other locations, that's what the DTC is for.

[bobdavis]

For us railway history fans, running replica Red Cars on Broadway would look rather strange; Broadway was strictly narrow (42") gauge Yellow Car country. Main St. (and other locations) had dual-gauge track so both systems could run on it. Not that I would object to seeing electric streetcars of any gauge or paint job running on any street in LA!