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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Dec 6, 2012 6:21:37 GMT -8
Expo Line ridership is increasing The Daily TrojanNearly 10 months after its debut, the LA Metro Expo Line attracts tens of thousands of boardings per day — a fact that is helped by being so close to USC, according to Metro. Since its opening on April 28, the Expo Line has brought thousands of students and community members onto the Metro system. The 8.6 mile-long line serves riders from Culver City to Downtown Los Angeles, with three stops near USC. The Expo Line ends at the 7th Street/Metro Center, which connects riders to Hollywood, Universal Studios, Chinatown, Pasadena and the Los Angeles International Airport. This first phase cost around $930 million. Metro has budgeted $38.9 million for Expo Line operations for 2013. Metro is “completely delighted” by the success of the Expo Line, according to Metro spokesperson Kim Upton, who said the line has exceeded their expectations. “The line is much more popular than Metro imagined it would be,” Upton said. Original projections for the year 2020 predicted 27,000 daily boardings on weekdays. Already, the line gets more than 22,000 boardings each day. Total Metro weekday boarding averages 360,901 times a day. “LA is hungry for ways to get out of their cars and out of rush-hour traffic,” Upton said. “When we build something, they hop on.” If the large rider numbers are any indication, Metro does not expect the line to slow down anytime soon. “Daily boardings are growing at a steady clip,” Upton said. “We’re expecting it to grow, but we don’t know how much. It’s far beyond its original projections,” One of the key points of the campaign for opening the line at USC was for transporting fans to Trojan football games. Many students have seen the packed trains on game days. “My friend lives Downtown and he takes it for every game day, instead of taking a cab or driving,” said Maddie Lay, a senior majoring in political science. On the first game day of the season, there were 8,000 more riders on the Expo Line than on an average day. The number of riders increased with each consecutive game, according to Upton. ...more (link)
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 10:27:21 GMT -8
The increase has been slowing down and recently it seems to be more the existing transit riders shifting from buses to the train rather than new transit riders. Among the new riders, we seem to be also getting more transit-dependent people than those who see transit as optional.
So, there is still hope that people will slowly leave their cars but it will certainly be a very long process. We also have nearly not enough rail lines -- so far only a half line in the West LA that stops in Culver City. Even with the subway extension, it's not anywhere adequate for the second largest city in US.
However, it's still much better than having nothing. Even if you can have a few thousand people out of their cars, it's quite a bit of success for LA, where the disbelief toward transit is very widespread. I am always happy to see those on the train, who otherwise would be driving.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 11:17:58 GMT -8
I read a report on a line in the midwest, where they claimed 9,000 new motor vehicle trips per day were occurring. The new line took 9,000 people off the streets. So, the millions and millions spent did nothing, other than alleviate one day's growth of motor vehicle traffic. Then, they killed the signal synchronization, made it favour surface rail, and extended commute time tremendously. Big step backwards. There are many issues I have seen in attempts to get folks onto rail (or even busses). Schedule times, as in how often. How close to destination. Security (safer in your car from......people...than in a big box). Cost. If you need a car for those trips to Grandma's house, you still pay insurance and license fees, so those costs do not go away. If the maintenance becomes deferred, due to bond and referendum monies earmarked for new buildout, then folks aren't going to ride. If I was riding, and the line broke down, and they wouldn't let me out of the box for hours, that would be the last time I ever used the transit. Disabled access.....sometimes it is easier to drive to where you need to go that load and unload many times, with parking, waiting, riding, transferring from line to line. I am, so I know how it goes. No way can I ride a bus. No seats in waiting areas, steps up into the bus and off, that won't work for me. One day, they are going to start charging what it costs to ride rail transit, and boy will that be a wakeup call. 1/4 of the cost is gleaned from the farebox. Imagine multiplying your fare by at least 4. Here's the link, obviously written by someone with a chip....or a realist: eastaustinvoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/the-hiawatha-light-rail-disaster-%C2%BB-the-antiplanner/Written almost three years ago. I LIKE rail transit, especially away from road ROW issues. Dave
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 11:56:02 GMT -8
I read a report on a line in the midwest, where they claimed 9,000 new motor vehicle trips per day were occurring. The new line took 9,000 people off the streets. So, the millions and millions spent did nothing, other than alleviate one day's growth of motor vehicle traffic. Then, they killed the signal synchronization, made it favour surface rail, and extended commute time tremendously. Big step backwards. There are many issues I have seen in attempts to get folks onto rail (or even busses). Schedule times, as in how often. How close to destination. Security (safer in your car from......people...than in a big box). Cost. If you need a car for those trips to Grandma's house, you still pay insurance and license fees, so those costs do not go away. If the maintenance becomes deferred, due to bond and referendum monies earmarked for new buildout, then folks aren't going to ride. If I was riding, and the line broke down, and they wouldn't let me out of the box for hours, that would be the last time I ever used the transit. Disabled access.....sometimes it is easier to drive to where you need to go that load and unload many times, with parking, waiting, riding, transferring from line to line. I am, so I know how it goes. No way can I ride a bus. No seats in waiting areas, steps up into the bus and off, that won't work for me. One day, they are going to start charging what it costs to ride rail transit, and boy will that be a wakeup call. 1/4 of the cost is gleaned from the farebox. Imagine multiplying your fare by at least 4. Here's the link, obviously written by someone with a chip....or a realist: eastaustinvoice.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/the-hiawatha-light-rail-disaster-%C2%BB-the-antiplanner/Written almost three years ago. I LIKE rail transit, especially away from road ROW issues. Dave That's nothing but a NIMBY blog. Hopefully the Austin light-rail will be realized soon. Of course, the government needs to pay to build and operate the rail lines. Do they think it's free to build and operate the roads they drive on?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 12:39:20 GMT -8
I look at the costs of A) vehicle registration, B) fuel taxes, C) tolls, and realize that roads pay more of their share than any transit currently in place. I would personally have issues if a road ROW light rail ended up causing the commute to be twice as long due to signal prioritization. But, that's because I can only get around by driving. Walking more than a couple of hundred feet is out. Stairs are a pain. Literally.
What happens when the spigot of government operating funding goes away? Just asking, as I haven't seen that addressed here, so far.
Personally, having grown up down there, and having lived the LARy and PE era, albeit late in the game, I wouldn't trust city, state or county governments to do the right thing. They failed to support and retain the rail we had once........will they do it again? Maybe not in our lifetime, but of all the transit options, rail has the highest cost to put into place, with land, permitting, rail, power, maintenance. Once again, I like separated grade rail for a whole lot of reasons. Streetcars for local loop running are great, but I am not so sure about longer distance light rail in the streets. Electric power is wonderful, really. The places that generate all that power are far away on the grid, and the Basin doesn't get the pollution from those plants when they have to throw another boiler on-line to pick up the load of commutes. Dave
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 12:49:09 GMT -8
I look at the costs of A) vehicle registration, B) fuel taxes, C) tolls, and realize that roads pay more of their share than any transit currently in place. Vehicle registration? Fuel tax? Toll? Are we talking about US or Europe? It costs me about $6 a month to register my car; I have never paid a toll in years, and the fuel tax in US is virtually nil. In Europe, the current cost of gas is $10 a gallon, which means people are paying $6 of fuel tax with every gallon -- roughly 150%. That's fuel tax. In contrast, we're paying pennies of fuel tax a gallon in US. That's tax-free for all purposes. Also, over there most freeways are toll and it may cost a lot to register a car as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 14:14:44 GMT -8
My license on the old truck is about $80 per year. State taxes are whatever they were, plus 9 cents more per gallon, added to Federal fuel tax. I am guessing you're paying close to $.70/gallon in taxes alone. Insurance? My old truck costs me a couple of hundred a year. No car payments, so a plus. California is 36 cents a gallon PLUS “Other Taxes", which include a 2 cpg state UST fee (gasoline and diesel), a 2.25% state sales tax for gasoline, a 9.42% state sales tax for diesel, gasoline and diesel rates are rate + local sales tax. Gasoline taxes in California are 68.9 cents per gallon. Included is the Federal Tax of 31/1 cents per gallon. I read where someone thought it a bad thing that tolls for a new tunnel would be charged to transit users. At some point, this system has to pay for itself, does it not? Where I live, they want to start tolling existing freeways. Major interstates, mind you. And surface streets, to keep folks from bypassing tolls. After ramming through a 9.5 cent per gallon additional fuel tax for "roads", and adding RTA taxes to our license renewal. The next big this they'll try in SoCal is taxing use of freeways. Pull that little transponder in your window....so you pay by the mile so others can ride transit on your dime. It's starting, and once it does, SoCal, the entire state, will get right on board, so they can subsidize the light rail riders.
Ever look to see how many folks move on SoCal freeways in one day? Ever compare it to total projected ridership of all public transit combined? Even one car every 5 minutes, you can't eliminate autos.
Back in the day, with large lots, less dense population, folks working near where they lived, the PE and LARy could do it. Now?
DC is looking at fuel taxes to avoid the "financial cliff" right now.
Not good.
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Post by mbbernstein on Dec 6, 2012 14:19:06 GMT -8
The increase has been slowing down and recently it seems to be more the existing transit riders shifting from buses to the train rather than new transit riders. Among the new riders, we seem to be also getting more transit-dependent people than those who see transit as optional. So, there is still hope that people will slowly leave their cars but it will certainly be a very long process. We also have nearly not enough rail lines -- so far only a half line in the West LA that stops in Culver City. Even with the subway extension, it's not anywhere adequate for the second largest city in US. However, it's still much better than having nothing. Even if you can have a few thousand people out of their cars, it's quite a bit of success for LA, where the disbelief toward transit is very widespread. I am always happy to see those on the train, who otherwise would be driving. Unfortunately, until Metro rail truly evolves into a network, instead of a poorly connected series of spokes from the downtown hub, it will be harder to attract the marginal rider. It will take decades, likely requiring completion of both the Wilshire subway and the Sepulveda Pass line, but eventually a tipping point will be reached whereby transit is much higher up in the conscious of your average commuter. We can't change the deeply ingrained, car-centric mindset that has developed over 2-3 generations in the space of 5-10 years. It will happen, especially as network expansions/improvements coincide with a new generation coming of age that is used to the idea of riding transit in LA, but it will take time. Until then, we much continue to fight the good fight to hasten that far off day.
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Post by masonite on Dec 6, 2012 14:55:36 GMT -8
The increase has been slowing down and recently it seems to be more the existing transit riders shifting from buses to the train rather than new transit riders. Among the new riders, we seem to be also getting more transit-dependent people than those who see transit as optional. So, there is still hope that people will slowly leave their cars but it will certainly be a very long process. We also have nearly not enough rail lines -- so far only a half line in the West LA that stops in Culver City. Even with the subway extension, it's not anywhere adequate for the second largest city in US. However, it's still much better than having nothing. Even if you can have a few thousand people out of their cars, it's quite a bit of success for LA, where the disbelief toward transit is very widespread. I am always happy to see those on the train, who otherwise would be driving. Unfortunately, until Metro rail truly evolves into a network, instead of a poorly connected series of spokes from the downtown hub, it will be harder to attract the marginal rider. It will take decades, likely requiring completion of both the Wilshire subway and the Sepulveda Pass line, but eventually a tipping point will be reached whereby transit is much higher up in the conscious of your average commuter. We can't change the deeply ingrained, car-centric mindset that has developed over 2-3 generations in the space of 5-10 years. It will happen, especially as network expansions/improvements coincide with a new generation coming of age that is used to the idea of riding transit in LA, but it will take time. Until then, we much continue to fight the good fight to hasten that far off day. The key is building transit that can move faster than a car in a typical commute. Unfortunately, Expo is just too slow to do this so it is not attracting the professional workers and such. However, both the Wilshire Subway and a Sepulveda Pass Tunnel will be faster than driving so I expect both of those projects to attract a ton of riders. On a good note, I noticed this Sunday that the Red Line is just jammed packed (both times I rode). 7th and Metro is bursting even on a Sunday afternoon. Plenty of seats on Expo though. Still we have come a long way from when I used to ride the subway at lunch Downtown in 1995 on occasion and there was hardly anyone on it as it only went to MacArthur Park back then.
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 6, 2012 15:30:04 GMT -8
As someone who hadn't taken the Blue Line for a long time (until now), I have to say I am amazed by how packed 7th/Metro is at rush hour, in both directions. The Expo Line has turned a once busy station into a crush.
Trust me, I think it's a good thing. Expo and Blue Line trains are coming frequently, and tons of people are taking the train.
But as I've mentioned before, it concerns me, that the station might be overutilized. It needs more exits, more seating, etc. Those tracks are going to wear out quickly. And I wonder how much maintenance is required on the turnback switches.
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Post by masonite on Dec 6, 2012 16:36:00 GMT -8
As someone who hadn't taken the Blue Line for a long time (until now), I have to say I am amazed by how packed 7th/Metro is at rush hour, in both directions. The Expo Line has turned a once busy station into a crush. Trust me, I think it's a good thing. Expo and Blue Line trains are coming frequently, and tons of people are taking the train. But as I've mentioned before, it concerns me, that the station might be overutilized. It needs more exits, more seating, etc. Those tracks are going to wear out quickly. And I wonder how much maintenance is required on the turnback switches. I am more concerned with just general crowding, especially with Expo II and then Crenshaw coming on line. It could be dangerously packed and turn off some potential passengers. The Connector will help, although maybe not too much. Just think if you come from Pasadena now and want to go to Wilshire/Vermont. Now you would transfer at Union Station, but in the future you would probably want to transfer at 7th/Metro, because it is just down the stairs instead of a longer walk at LAUS. In this case, the Connector will be adding passengers here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 17:12:47 GMT -8
I think my main drive is to understand what the long-term plan is to fund maintenance and operations? Taxpayers vote themselves into the poorhouse to build the system, but I don't see a plan to maintain and operate. What I am reading (here and elsewhere) is the bonds, referendums, propositions, pay for buildout, not maintenance and operation, hence "deferred maintenance". I am watching it unfold here, and still cannot see how it will work out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 17:42:51 GMT -8
And....sorry.....got called away.....what is the projected ridership when it is all in place (and doesn't have any breakdowns), and what percentage is that of the total commuter base who COULD use the system? I've read linked documents until I have a migraine, can't really see (other than wild speculation, it seems), firm engineered estimates. I know you really cannot build any more freeways, at least, not if you want any houses (and property tax bases) left ion the city. I look at current maps and am utterly amazed. I remember when they started putting in the Santa Monica freeway, took for ever to get to Harbor Freeway. Never did see the Artesia Freeway when I was there...they talked and talked about the western extension of the Riverside, but to get to Inglewood fro OC we drove Artesia all the way. Now there's a freeway seemingly in every neighborhood....and I see toll freeways...talk to friends in SoCal, all sorts of them they tell me. Plus, lanes you can pay to drive in (starting that in HOV lanes up here..."BMW Lanes"). I think the LA Streetcar line, if done right, could be a real bonus to getting folks to and from work and stations, since they don't need stations...altho, they'll probably close off another lane of traffic and add a station every block anyway. Remember "Safety Zones"? On electric overhead, I have read a bit here, and a lot in the UK and Europe, where the zone has a power outtage and nobody goes anywhere. With self-contained power sources (battery, diseasemal, or petrol) things keep running. Great Northern, Milwaukee Road, tried electric....finally pulled the wire down and went all internal power. Maintenance, reliability of power, those kind of things. But, I've always liked pantographs or trolly poles on overhead wire. Hopefully, the power leakage through the soils won't disrupt buried water and other pipes as it has done elsewhere. Dave
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 18:21:01 GMT -8
The Siemens train I am on tonight is dismal. 45 minutes or more late because of electronic issues regarding doors and brakes. Still stopped at La Cienega. Some technician tried to reset the computers in the cabinets. It looks like Siemenses are much worse than Nippon Sharyos.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 18:33:42 GMT -8
So, I am on a disabled Siemens near Hayden in Culver City now. Can't get out. Another Siemens just passed by on the wrong track.
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Post by mattapoisett on Dec 6, 2012 18:38:15 GMT -8
The Siemens train I am on tonight is dismal. 45 minutes or more late because of electronic issues regarding doors and brakes. Still stopped at La Cienega. Some technician tried to reset the computers in the cabinets. It looks like Siemenses are much worse than Nippon Sharyos. . So that's why we ended up driving to Nokia after waiting 30 mins on the La Cienega platform. Conversely last nights 6:50 train was the fastest I've been on,, less than :25 mins to Pico and only a small wait to get through the Wash junction.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 6, 2012 19:11:55 GMT -8
That sucks. I've fortunately never been on a train that became disabled between stations. A blue line train was disabled this afternoon as well. Any bets on the manufacturer? I don't know the answer, but Siemens seems like a safe bet. I think that Bruce Shelburne had even mentioned at the transit coalition meeting a few months back that the Siemens trains were working harder than they ever had before and were struggling with breakdowns. He said that the green/gold lines were relatively easy trips compared to what they were doing now on the blue line.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 19:14:23 GMT -8
Arrived 1 hour late (about 89 minutes from 7th/Metro to CC). Talked to operator and she mentioned a bad door and propulsion dynamics. To me it looked like possible ATP issues as well. I can only wonder how that train will make it back.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 6, 2012 19:24:00 GMT -8
Arrived 1 hour late (about 89 minutes from 7th/Metro to CC). Talked to operator and she mentioned a bad door and propulsion dynamics. To me it looked like possible ATP issues as well. I can only wonder how that train will make it back. Hindsight is 20/20, but it seems like she should have detrained everyone at a station so that you didn't get stuck as you eventually did. I've been on a few blue line trains with propulsion problems and that's what was done each time.
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Post by TransportationZ on Dec 6, 2012 22:18:32 GMT -8
This could explain why at yesterday's transit coalition meeting it was mentioned that Metro is considering replacing the ENTIRE fleet with the Kinkis, including the Breda's AND Siemens.
I don't remember, I think it was just before Expo Line opened, but I was on the Blue Line heading southbound on flower just before the I-10 on-ramp and the train literally lost all power. Someone hit the emergency door release and everyone started jumping off. I jumped off and walked to Washington and Fig to get the Silver Line. I think this was more a issue with infrastructure because they were tying in the Expo Line, than an issue with the train itself.(This has never happened in now almost 20 years of riding the Blue Line)
Honestly, I like the Nippons the best, hate the Bredas. The Siemens are so-so, but they seemed have allot of issues, even more so than Nippons which are twice as old.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2012 22:19:09 GMT -8
I was told by someone on the train that they stopped at Pico for about 15 minutes or so. It looks like it's also the operations' fault not to disembark everyone at Pico and send the train to the Long Beach yard.
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 7, 2012 9:29:11 GMT -8
Last night, sometime around 5:30-6:00PM, my Blue Line train waited for 15 minutes, at the 12th Street portal just prior to Pico station. Due to a faulty Expo train in front of us.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 7, 2012 10:41:18 GMT -8
Last night, sometime around 5:30-6:00PM, my Blue Line train waited for 15 minutes, at the 12th Street portal just prior to Pico station. Due to a faulty Expo train in front of us. That was my Siemens train. lol Many passed us later, and we arrived at Culver City at 6:45 pm instead of the 5:45 pm scheduled time. It's really bizarre that they didn't send this train to the Long Beach yard but kept running it all the way. I heard another Siemens also broke down yesterday. The Siemens's seem to have poor reliability. Green Line has been having a lot of issues lately.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 7, 2012 11:32:06 GMT -8
Last night, sometime around 5:30-6:00PM, my Blue Line train waited for 15 minutes, at the 12th Street portal just prior to Pico station. Due to a faulty Expo train in front of us. That was my Siemens train. lol Many passed us later, and we arrived at Culver City at 6:45 pm instead of the 5:45 pm scheduled time. It's really bizarre that they didn't send this train to the Long Beach yard but kept running it all the way. I heard another Siemens also broke down yesterday. The Siemens's seem to have poor reliability. Green Line has been having a lot of issues lately. So, I left the train at Culver City at 6:45 pm, which had taken 89 minutes to make the trip from 7th/Metro to there. It turns out this was the aftermath: Expo Line up to 15 min delays due to disabled train. Trains share Culver City bound track @ Expo/Western. Follow announcements. ^ST 11:44 PM, Thu Dec 06Expo Line disabled train is out of service at Expo/Western Platform 3. Train will return to yard after Close. Normal service for Fri AM. ^ST 12:17 AM, Fri Dec 07
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 7, 2012 17:42:11 GMT -8
Tonight on a Nippon Sharyo train, a lot of problems between La Cienega and Culver City, took us 10 minutes to travel the fully grade-separated one-mile distance. Don't know if it's ATP, propulsion dynamics, or a combination, but it's sad and frustrating.
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Post by darrell on Dec 8, 2012 15:59:36 GMT -8
And....sorry.....got called away.....what is the projected ridership when it is all in place (and doesn't have any breakdowns), and what percentage is that of the total commuter base who COULD use the system? The Phase 1 Final EIS projected 42,900 average daily boardings for 2025 (page 5.2-2), and the Phase 2 Final EIR projected an additional 36,412 for 2030 (page 7-6). You can do the addition; I've long projected at least over 50,000 total per day. Total corridor population within a 2 mile radius of the line is over 800,000.
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Post by darrell on Dec 8, 2012 16:02:51 GMT -8
I think my main drive is to understand what the long-term plan is to fund maintenance and operations? Taxpayers vote themselves into the poorhouse to build the system, but I don't see a plan to maintain and operate. What I am reading (here and elsewhere) is the bonds, referendums, propositions, pay for buildout, not maintenance and operation, hence "deferred maintenance". I am watching it unfold here, and still cannot see how it will work out. Measure R (2008) included a dedicated 5% for rail operations, on top of existing portions of Proposition A (1980) and C (1990). Whether it is enough is subject to debate, but there is quite a bit of money provided.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2012 16:46:36 GMT -8
Okay. What I read elsewhere and on this forum, there was a serious question on funding for maintenance and operations costs.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 10, 2012 15:41:57 GMT -8
More train breakdowns today. It looks like these are becoming almost daily:
EXPO LINE: Westbound train unable to move at Jefferson (not 23rd) Sta. 12 min delays until tracks clear, expected shortly. ^ GA 05:59 AM, Mon Dec 10
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 13, 2012 18:21:41 GMT -8
Intense smell of chocolate in the air at the La Cienega Station this evening was unbelievable -- thanks to the See's Candies factory and headquarters, working hard for the holidays...
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