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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 7, 2013 19:12:43 GMT -8
If they really want to know the exact number, they could have someone at every station all day and count. . Modern statistics means theres no need for that. You can be very confident with an appropriate sample size
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Post by masonite on Dec 11, 2013 18:23:20 GMT -8
Looks like Expo's ridership is holding steady at just over 27k. The subway continues to shine with nearly 170k riders. With the Purple Line Extension, I expect the subway to blow away the entire light rail system even after adding the Regional Connector, Foothill, Expo 2 and Crenshaw.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 12, 2013 10:35:52 GMT -8
So, the November 2013 ridership is 27,679.
A very large chunk of the subway ridership will transfer to the light-rail ridership once Downtown Connector opens, as currently the subway is the only line that connects Union Station to Downtown LA. If the Downtown Connector was open now, you would expect the 170k to drop to 120k or so.
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Post by masonite on Dec 12, 2013 12:27:37 GMT -8
So, the November 2013 ridership is 27,679. A very large chunk of the subway ridership will transfer to the light-rail ridership once Downtown Connector opens, as currently the subway is the only line that connects Union Station to Downtown LA. If the Downtown Connector was open now, you would expect the 170k to drop to 120k or so. The entire Gold Line doesn't even have 50k riders. Furthermore, say you were taking Expo and wanted to go to Union Station, you'd still be better off transfering at 7th Street to the Purple or Red Line rather than going to Little Tokyo and transferring to the Gold/Blue Line as the Red/Purple Line will be faster and will have shorter headways. Also, the Red/Purple Lines are much more reliable and not subject to cars getting on the tracks, overhead wires falling down or malfunctioning. Our light rail system has some sort of breakdown nearly every day and will never come close to comparing with the much faster, higher capacity, more reliable Subway. The ridership will continue to show this as it already is.
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Post by masonite on Dec 12, 2013 12:30:38 GMT -8
So, the November 2013 ridership is 27,679. A very large chunk of the subway ridership will transfer to the light-rail ridership once Downtown Connector opens, as currently the subway is the only line that connects Union Station to Downtown LA. If the Downtown Connector was open now, you would expect the 170k to drop to 120k or so. The entire Gold Line doesn't even have 50k riders. Furthermore, say you were taking Expo and wanted to go to Union Station, you'd still be better off transfering at 7th Street to the Purple or Red Line rather than going to Little Tokyo and transferring to the Gold/Blue Line as the Red/Purple Line will be faster and will have shorter headways. Also, the Red/Purple Lines are much more reliable and not subject to cars getting on the tracks, overhead wires falling down or malfunctioning. Our light rail system has some sort of breakdown nearly every day and will never come close to comparing with the much faster, higher capacity, more reliable Subway. The ridership will continue to show this as it already is. Just as a check to my point, the Gold Line and Blue Line already have had breakdowns and service delays today.
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Post by bzcat on Dec 12, 2013 12:31:29 GMT -8
The future transfer strategy will largely depend on how Metro operates the train.
I can see a drop off on transfer to/from Red/Purple if Expo is through-operated to Foothill. But if Expo is through-operated to Eastside, there will be little change in transfer preference... people will still want to change to/from Red/Purple at 7th Street for faster ride to/from Union Station
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 12, 2013 12:49:55 GMT -8
The subway at Union Station is a long walk from the transfers and also involves long stairs. Once Downtown Connector opens, it will be much more convenient to transfer to Downtown LA using the Downtown Connector rather than doing the long walk to the Red/Purple Line. It's not just the Gold Line but there are Metrolink lines and buses and Blue and Expo Lines. The Red/Purple Line subway will lose more than half of its Downtown LA ridership when the light-rail connector -- the other Downtown subway -- opens.
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Post by JerardWright on Dec 12, 2013 13:08:21 GMT -8
The future transfer strategy will largely depend on how Metro operates the train. I can see a drop off on transfers to/from the Red/Purple if Expo is through-operated to Foothill. But if Expo is through-operated to Eastside, there will be little change in transfer preference... people will still want to change to/from Red/Purple at 7th Street for faster ride to/from Union Station The ridership changes will be dependent on two factors, Fares and ease of transfers. On the fares, whatever new fare structure (timed transfer trip or single ride-same direction fare) I think we will see an explosion of ridership along Regional Connector based on the current fare structure because you can get Union Station on one fare, transfer to the Red/Purple you have to pay another fare which will make the case for staying on the same platform because you only have to wait 2-3 minutes for the next train compared to 4-5 minutes making the transfer down to the Red/Purple. If there's a timed based fare, I still doubt people will make the transfer to Union Station at 7th unless there's a delay else where. There are delays on Red/Purple lines that occur that infuriates Metrolink passengers needing to make the connections. Plus with the location of the infrastructure, rail operations can quickly operate a shuttle in the Regional Connector in case a delay within the alignment to prevent overloading on the Red/Purple Line when the subway is extended towards Westwood.
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Post by skater on Dec 12, 2013 13:15:28 GMT -8
probably, part of the reason for building the regional connector is to take pressure off of the red/purple lines. The service on the purple line will be dramatically increased once it is built. Here: media.metro.net/projects_studies/westside/images/Draft_EIS_EIR/Executive%20Summary%20DEIS.pdf it says that the purple line will run at 3.3 minuite frequencies, but it says that service on other lines won't change, although under TSM alternative it says the red line to holywood/higland would run at 5 minute frequencies at peak times. This means the downtown section would run at something like 2 minute frequency. Nowadays, metro seems to underestimate ridership (probably on purpose since they overestimated red line ridership during construction), but I think more people than ever will be riding the downtown portion of the subway. they estimate 27,615 new trips with the extension to the VA. does trips mean 2 boardings? because 27,615 doesnt seem like very much.
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Post by JerardWright on Dec 12, 2013 13:21:47 GMT -8
So, the November 2013 ridership is 27,679. A very large chunk of the subway ridership will transfer to the light-rail ridership once Downtown Connector opens, as currently the subway is the only line that connects Union Station to Downtown LA. If the Downtown Connector was open now, you would expect the 170k to drop to 120k or so. I believe that drop is accurate based on current ridership and transfers. What I think will happen is for a short time frame transfers will go up at 7th Street Station but for passengers who board at Bunker Hill who will ride just the one station to transfer at 7th Street to head to North Hollywood and Wilshire Corridor. What I also see happening are stations such as Pershing Square will see a drop in ridership because the catchment of those riders who work in Bunker Hill can now go directly station and reach their respective regional destination in one rail trip.
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Post by masonite on Dec 12, 2013 16:20:10 GMT -8
The subway at Union Station is a long walk from the transfers and also involves long stairs. Once Downtown Connector opens, it will be much more convenient to transfer to Downtown LA using the Downtown Connector rather than doing the long walk to the Red/Purple Line. It's not just the Gold Line but there are Metrolink lines and buses and Blue and Expo Lines. The Red/Purple Line subway will lose more than half of its Downtown LA ridership when the light-rail connector -- the other Downtown subway -- opens. It really isn't much farther from the bus portal to the Red Line than the Gold Line. Also, the big difference is that Gold Line will have at a minimum a 6 minute headway, while the subway will have 2-3 minutes. That is a huge difference. You think people will mind walking 30 seconds more to save 2-3 minutes. To 7th Street, I imagine most people coming from a bus or Metrolink will still take the subway if that is their final destination, because of the shorter headways and also faster service. Remember light rail is still slower even in the tunnels. Finally, the light rail system has limited capacity as those of us coming from Staples or USC games have painfully seen. If you had to choose between having room on a giant 6 car train that is coming every 2.5 minutes vs. a much smaller 3 car train that comes every 6, which are you going to choose, given all else being equal. Ultimately, it depends if their destination is near the light rail stations or the heavy rail stations and I suppose we'll have to wait until 2021 to see.
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Post by JerardWright on Dec 12, 2013 18:49:12 GMT -8
The subway at Union Station is a long walk from the transfers and also involves long stairs. Once Downtown Connector opens, it will be much more convenient to transfer to Downtown LA using the Downtown Connector rather than doing the long walk to the Red/Purple Line. It's not just the Gold Line but there are Metrolink lines and buses and Blue and Expo Lines. The Red/Purple Line subway will lose more than half of its Downtown LA ridership when the light-rail connector -- the other Downtown subway -- opens. It really isn't much farther from the bus portal to the Red Line than the Gold Line. Also, the big difference is that Gold Line will have at a minimum a 6 minute headway, while the subway will have 2-3 minutes. That is a huge difference. You think people will mind walking 30 seconds more to save 2-3 minutes. Well after tapping the fare card to pay another fare, going through the gates and going down more escalators, it will be more than 30 seconds. 7th Street will be a destination passengers will go to however Bunker Hill will be a comparable station for demand serving the CBD so there's going to be a choice Where did that come from? How is it slower in the tunnel? Do you mean currently with the Expo and Blue Lines shared in the tunnel and at 7th Street trains aren't returned back quickly enough to reduce delay? Once Regional Connector opens, through service will be much faster because it's not stopped to turn back at 7th Street. That is a facility problem more than anything else, irregardless of grade separations or light rail or heavy rail. I give you an example, in Chicago, during the Baseball Season, the heavy rail Red Line trains serves both White Sox at the Sox-35th station on the South Side and Wrigley Field at the Addison station on the North side. The train runs every 3 minutes. If there is a delay at either Addison or Sox-35th, it takes upwards of 60 minutes to clear the problem and handle the capacity demands and this is a grade separated heavy rail system. Why? Because at either station there are no pocket tracks to have at least a train ready/dispatched to take care of the emergency. The frequency is so tight that if you handle a load that large, it will drag the other trains behind because they want to get on and get off at the other stations. I will go to the other end of the spectrum to San Diego for sporting events, that is light rail system mostly at-grade (with some grade separations), but they can efficiently and effective handle the demands even with mishaps for both Baseball and Football events for consistent 40-60K demand because they are equipped with pocket tracks, extra platforms and dispatching to do so. Expo Line during USC games so far has been very effective and smart-taking a page from San Diego- in crowd control and crowd management by moving patrons safely but what Expo lacks isn't grade separations but are pocket tracks or nearby spots to store extra trains near the event center in case something happens.
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Post by masonite on Dec 12, 2013 21:09:14 GMT -8
It really isn't much farther from the bus portal to the Red Line than the Gold Line. Also, the big difference is that Gold Line will have at a minimum a 6 minute headway, while the subway will have 2-3 minutes. That is a huge difference. You think people will mind walking 30 seconds more to save 2-3 minutes. Well after tapping the fare card to pay another fare, going through the gates and going down more escalators, it will be more than 30 seconds. 7th Street will be a destination passengers will go to however Bunker Hill will be a comparable station for demand serving the CBD so there's going to be a choice Where did that come from? How is it slower in the tunnel? Do you mean currently with the Expo and Blue Lines shared in the tunnel and at 7th Street trains aren't returned back quickly enough to reduce delay? Once Regional Connector opens, through service will be much faster because it's not stopped to turn back at 7th Street. That is a facility problem more than anything else, irregardless of lack of grade separations or light rail or heavy rail. I give you an example, in Chicago, during the Baseball Season, the heavy rail Red Line trains serves both White Sox at the Sox-35th station on the South Side and Wrigley Field at the Addison station on the North side. The train runs every 3 minutes. If there is a delay at either Addison or Sox-35th, it takes upwards of 60 minutes to clear the problem and handle the capacity demands and this is a grade separated heavy rail system. Why? Because at either station there are no pocket tracks to have at least a train ready/dispatched to take care of the emergency. Also the frequency is so tight that if you swallow a large load that large load will drag the other trains behind because they want to get on and get off at the other stations. I will go to the other end of the spectrum to San Diego for sporting events, that is light rail system mostly at grade (with some grade separations), but they can efficiently and effective handle the demands even with mishaps for both Baseball and Football events for consistent (40-60K demand) because they are equipped with pocket tracks, extra platforms and dispatching to do so. Expo Line during USC games so far has been very effective and smart-taking a page from San Diego- in crowd control and crowd management in moving the patrons safely but what Expo lacks isn't grade separations but are pocket tracks or nearby spots to store extra trains near the event center in case something happens. If you are coming from Metrolink or the busses, you have to tap and go up a flight of stairs for the Gold Line, so not much more than a 30 second difference from going down to the Red Line. On the Eastside Gold Line, the line is slower even in the tunnels than the Red Line. At least that was my experience when I rode several years ago. Maybe this because it is from going to the surface to underground and vice versa but if this is the case then it does not bode well for the Connector, which will have to do the same.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 13, 2013 13:50:18 GMT -8
Note that when Expo Line Phase 2 opens in early 2016, both the Expo Line and Blue Line will start running 5-minute headways during peak periods. 6-minute hedways will be history in early 2016.
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Post by skater on Dec 13, 2013 21:52:45 GMT -8
well today around 5:00 on a red line train out of union station, I noticed that most of the passengers in the DTLA portion of the subway were headed beyond 7th street. Many did exit at 7th street, but almost as many people boarded at 7th st. I think that even with the regional connector, this section will be at least as busy at it is now .An interesting thing to observe will be per-mile ridership for the whole rail system is as a new extension or segment of rail opens. That will show how cost effective project is. I am not sure what the top speeds are in the tunnels, but the red line feels like it has faster acceleration than the light rail trains, but I believe most stations are to close together for the top speeds to be reached on the red line (but really I'm not sure about this). The gold line gets a speed limit of 55 on the most straight part of the East LA tunnel.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 14, 2013 3:52:57 GMT -8
well today around 5:00 on a red line train out of union station, I noticed that most of the passengers in the DTLA portion of the subway were headed beyond 7th street. Many did exit at 7th street, but almost as many people boarded at 7th st. I think that even with the regional connector, this section will be at least as busy at it is now .An interesting thing to observe will be per-mile ridership for the whole rail system is as a new extension or segment of rail opens. That will show how cost effective project is. I am not sure what the top speeds are in the tunnels, but the red line feels like it has faster acceleration than the light rail trains, but I believe most stations are to close together for the top speeds to be reached on the red line (but really I'm not sure about this). The gold line gets a speed limit of 55 on the most straight part of the East LA tunnel. You're right that the top speed of 55 MPH vs 70 MPH doesn't make too much difference with mile-separated stations. Light-rail and heavy rail both have the same acceleration and deceleration -- limited not really because of equipment but because of concerns regarding riders getting injured -- whiplashes, back injuries, falls, hits, etc. The only thing that slows light-rail is traffic-light-controlled crossings. Capacitywise heavy rail has about 50% more capacity than light-rail for LA equipment. It could be more with reduced headways such as 3-minute, reaching up to perhaps 150% more capacity. You should realize that the Red and Purple Lines serve much denser corridors than the Expo and Blue Lines. The reason for the high ridership is not really because it's subway instead of light-rail but because of the density of the corridors.
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Post by masonite on Dec 21, 2013 17:50:13 GMT -8
well today around 5:00 on a red line train out of union station, I noticed that most of the passengers in the DTLA portion of the subway were headed beyond 7th street. Many did exit at 7th street, but almost as many people boarded at 7th st. I think that even with the regional connector, this section will be at least as busy at it is now .An interesting thing to observe will be per-mile ridership for the whole rail system is as a new extension or segment of rail opens. That will show how cost effective project is. I am not sure what the top speeds are in the tunnels, but the red line feels like it has faster acceleration than the light rail trains, but I believe most stations are to close together for the top speeds to be reached on the red line (but really I'm not sure about this). The gold line gets a speed limit of 55 on the most straight part of the East LA tunnel. You're right that the top speed of 55 MPH vs 70 MPH doesn't make too much difference with mile-separated stations. Light-rail and heavy rail both have the same acceleration and deceleration -- limited not really because of equipment but because of concerns regarding riders getting injured -- whiplashes, back injuries, falls, hits, etc. The only thing that slows light-rail is traffic-light-controlled crossings. Capacitywise heavy rail has about 50% more capacity than light-rail for LA equipment. It could be more with reduced headways such as 3-minute, reaching up to perhaps 150% more capacity. You should realize that the Red and Purple Lines serve much denser corridors than the Expo and Blue Lines. The reason for the high ridership is not really because it's subway instead of light-rail but because of the density of the corridors. I only partially agree with this. Yes, they serve dense corridors, but Hollywood and the Wilshire District were in big trouble when the subway opened. Ridership was not great. However, because if the fast ride, development and riders followed. The line continues to grow in ridership, and that is mainly due to the fact that people can ride from Hollywood to Downtown in 15 minutes and you can't often drive in that time. The Green Line attracts its ridership largely due to speed. The Eastside Gold Line struggles with ridership due to its slow ride as it is often faster to ride a bus. Expo does okay in ridership, but that is only because of the huge demand for transit towards the Westside and the extreme congestion in the area. I rode a coup,e weeks ago in the morning rush hour from Culver City as I had a meeting Downtown. I was shocked at the lack of other professionals. There are more on the 720. The line is just too slow to attract choice riders at least for now.
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Post by bzcat on Dec 23, 2013 10:54:53 GMT -8
You're right that the top speed of 55 MPH vs 70 MPH doesn't make too much difference with mile-separated stations. Light-rail and heavy rail both have the same acceleration and deceleration -- limited not really because of equipment but because of concerns regarding riders getting injured -- whiplashes, back injuries, falls, hits, etc. The only thing that slows light-rail is traffic-light-controlled crossings. Capacitywise heavy rail has about 50% more capacity than light-rail for LA equipment. It could be more with reduced headways such as 3-minute, reaching up to perhaps 150% more capacity. You should realize that the Red and Purple Lines serve much denser corridors than the Expo and Blue Lines. The reason for the high ridership is not really because it's subway instead of light-rail but because of the density of the corridors. I only partially agree with this. Yes, they serve dense corridors, but Hollywood and the Wilshire District were in big trouble when the subway opened. Ridership was not great. However, because if the fast ride, development and riders followed. The line continues to grow in ridership, and that is mainly due to the fact that people can ride from Hollywood to Downtown in 15 minutes and you can't often drive in that time. The Green Line attracts its ridership largely due to speed. The Eastside Gold Line struggles with ridership due to its slow ride as it is often faster to ride a bus. Expo does okay in ridership, but that is only because of the huge demand for transit towards the Westside and the extreme congestion in the area. I rode a coup,e weeks ago in the morning rush hour from Culver City as I had a meeting Downtown. I was shocked at the lack of other professionals. There are more on the 720. The line is just too slow to attract choice riders at least for now. Also consider the corridor served by Expo vs. 720. I don't want to get into too much demographic talk but one of the reason for your observation is the lack of housing options along Phase 1 of Expo for professional white collar workers, and the fact the Expo was not an established transit corridor before like 720/Wilshire Blvd. It takes many years for housing and job patterns to change to take advantage of transit options. Expo line will almost certainly take the same amount of time to reach downtown LA in the future but driving or taking the bus will get slower and slower... The few "professionals" as you mentioned that elects to take the train now often is driving from points further west to Culver City. I think the demographics will change once Phase 2 opens. Not only will the train go thru the heart of West LA residential core with stations in Palms, Rancho Park, and Bundy, it will also serve areas with high paying jobs in Uptown and Mid Town Santa Monica.
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Post by rajacobs on Dec 24, 2013 11:08:09 GMT -8
Not only will the train go thru the heart of West LA residential core with stations in Palms, Rancho Park, and Bundy, it will also serve areas with high paying jobs in Uptown and Mid Town Santa Monica. ...I've often wondered if the Red Line / Expo Line conduit that links the Sony and Warner Bros. studios will draw studio traffic. Navigating between those two points by car can be challenging much of the day. The same conduit links Kaiser Permanente's main facility at Sunset (with a stop across the street) and Kaiser West LA--though the West LA is several blocks north of the La Cienega station.
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Post by masonite on Dec 26, 2013 11:12:23 GMT -8
I only partially agree with this. Yes, they serve dense corridors, but Hollywood and the Wilshire District were in big trouble when the subway opened. Ridership was not great. However, because if the fast ride, development and riders followed. The line continues to grow in ridership, and that is mainly due to the fact that people can ride from Hollywood to Downtown in 15 minutes and you can't often drive in that time. The Green Line attracts its ridership largely due to speed. The Eastside Gold Line struggles with ridership due to its slow ride as it is often faster to ride a bus. Expo does okay in ridership, but that is only because of the huge demand for transit towards the Westside and the extreme congestion in the area. I rode a coup,e weeks ago in the morning rush hour from Culver City as I had a meeting Downtown. I was shocked at the lack of other professionals. There are more on the 720. The line is just too slow to attract choice riders at least for now. Also consider the corridor served by Expo vs. 720. I don't want to get into too much demographic talk but one of the reason for your observation is the lack of housing options along Phase 1 of Expo for professional white collar workers, and the fact the Expo was not an established transit corridor before like 720/Wilshire Blvd. It takes many years for housing and job patterns to change to take advantage of transit options. Expo line will almost certainly take the same amount of time to reach downtown LA in the future but driving or taking the bus will get slower and slower... The few "professionals" as you mentioned that elects to take the train now often is driving from points further west to Culver City. I think the demographics will change once Phase 2 opens. Not only will the train go thru the heart of West LA residential core with stations in Palms, Rancho Park, and Bundy, it will also serve areas with high paying jobs in Uptown and Mid Town Santa Monica. Culver City has a ton of professionals who work in Downtown and so does Palms and other surrounding areas. These people in many cases, started using Expo thinking they could save on high Downtown parking costs and then abandoned it based on the slow ride and told their friends and colleagues not to use it. There is no need for 5 minute headways when Phase II opens. There is almost always plenty of room to sit even in rush hour with the 12 minute headways. 5 minute headways will be great and will eventually be useful for Phase II, but for the first 6-12 months, they will be unnecessary so I just don't see the lack of trains being an issue unless there is a problem with the order or by some miracle Phase II is ready to go before 2016.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 26, 2013 11:50:14 GMT -8
Culver City has a ton of professionals who work in Downtown and so does Palms and other surrounding areas. These people in many cases, started using Expo thinking they could save on high Downtown parking costs and then abandoned it based on the slow ride and told their friends and colleagues not to use it. There is no need for 5 minute headways when Phase II opens. There is almost always plenty of room to sit even in rush hour with the 12 minute headways. 5 minute headways will be great and will eventually be useful for Phase II, but for the first 6-12 months, they will be unnecessary so I just don't see the lack of trains being an issue unless there is a problem with the order or by some miracle Phase II is ready to go before 2016. The Wilshire Corridor and Expo Corridor is still Apples & Pears. On the Wilshire Corridor, you have walkable dense areas with restaurants/retail/offices/residential all clustered on major intersections. Exposition doesn't have that. There are professionals in Palms and Culver City, but not many within walking distance of Metro rail.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 26, 2013 12:47:54 GMT -8
Palms is a disturbingly car-oriented neighborhood. I don't know exactly what's to blame -- sky-high rents starting to rival beach cities like Santa Monica (blame UCLA students and/or the Westside in general) preventing more transit-dependent people from renting there, availability of free parking in the apartment buildings, proximity to the 10 freeway, reverse-commuting on the 10 freeway, lack of nearby attractions (neighborhood is mostly residential except for a small historic Downtown) could be what's to blame. I think what Expo Line Phase 2 will mainly do is to drive the rents even higher. I'm somewhat pessimistic that it'll make a big impact on the driving habits of the neighborhood. More needs to be done to discourage driving.
It's not accurate that there are plenty of seats on Expo during rush hour, as I ride it everyday. More accurate statement is that there are plenty of riders who can't find seats and have to stand during rush hour. However, 12-minute headways would work during the initial months.
Another disturbing thing is that Phase 2 will open in two years and nothing has been done and is being done in order to speed up Phase 1. They could easily speed up Farmdale (1-minute gain) by reprogramming the train controls there and things need to be done with signals along the entire Flower St section and the USC section of Exposition Blvd.
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Post by rajacobs on Dec 26, 2013 13:17:37 GMT -8
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Post by masonite on Dec 26, 2013 15:03:45 GMT -8
It not only met it but exceeded it. Of course, the 27k was not a very ambitious goal and the trains are still mostly empty, which is good in some way because they offer a comfortable trip. September ridership should be significantly higher with the school season. I've only seen Expo where someone could not get a seat during a USC football game. True, I generally don't ride during rush hour, but the times I have, it was not close to filling up all the seats and that is what I have heard from others, so I am surprised to see that now people are saying the trains have no seats. Maybe you mean when they run the 2 car trains? I dunno.
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Post by masonite on Dec 26, 2013 15:08:18 GMT -8
I don't believe the Metro ridership estimates at all. Lately (since September or so), Expo Line ridership has been dismal. Even during rush hour, there are many seats available. On top of that, many of the Expo Line riders these days are transit-dependent people, who apparently switched from the buses. The rider demographics was quite different when the line first opened. My estimate for the Expo Line ridership right now is more like 20,000. It's much less than it was a year ago. Well, all it means is that there is a lot to be done in Los Angeles to encourage the use of public transit: speeding up existing lines, more frequent service, better and more frequent bus connections, more rail lines, gas tax, driving tax, toll roads, etc. are things I can think of. Here is another quote from just a couple of months ago stating that there are plenty of seats available at rush hour and the ridership demographics have changed from choice riders to transit dependent. This is consistent with what I see when I ride, albeit in a much more limited frequency.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 26, 2013 15:34:31 GMT -8
Yes, there was a period with particularly low ridership and there is also the fact that the Metro ridership numbers for Expo have remained at 27k for several months now. I also noticed some drop in the Culver City Station parking-lot use during last few weeks. Of course, currently thanks to the Holidays, the lot is nearly empty. During rush hour, typically almost all seats are taken (the ones not taken usually have someone's bag on it) and there are dozens of standees. I'll take a picture sometime. Occasionally, more and more often these days, there is a two-car train due to lack of available rail cars and it's really, really crowded, riders having a hard time getting in and out, which is greatly increasing the station dwell and increasing the length of the trip by up to 10 minutes, making LA - Culver City almost 40 minutes. So, two-car trains with 12-minute headways is a no-no during rush hour.
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Post by masonite on Dec 26, 2013 15:40:25 GMT -8
Yes, there was a period with particularly low ridership and there is also the fact that the Metro ridership numbers for Expo have remained at 27k for several months now. I also noticed some drop in the Culver City Station parking-lot use during last few weeks. Of course, currently thanks to the Holidays, the lot is nearly empty. During rush hour, typically almost all seats are taken (the ones not taken usually have someone's bag on it) and there are dozens of standees. I'll take a picture sometime. Occasionally, more and more often these days, there is a two-car train due to lack of available rail cars and it's really, really crowded, riders having a hard time getting in and out, which is greatly increasing the station dwell and increasing the length of the trip by up to 10 minutes, making LA - Culver City almost 40 minutes. So, two-car trains with 12-minute headways is a no-no during rush hour. Thanks. I agree 2 car trains at 12 minute headways doesn't work. Hopefully, they can do 5 minute headways with 2 car trains at first or 3 car trains at 12 minutes. I am not so worried about the trains being an issue as there is a lot of construction to go, much less to actually get the line to work.
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Post by mattapoisett on Dec 26, 2013 23:27:33 GMT -8
Also consider the corridor served by Expo vs. 720. I don't want to get into too much demographic talk but one of the reason for your observation is the lack of housing options along Phase 1 of Expo for professional white collar workers, and the fact the Expo was not an established transit corridor before like 720/Wilshire Blvd. It takes many years for housing and job patterns to change to take advantage of transit options. Expo line will almost certainly take the same amount of time to reach downtown LA in the future but driving or taking the bus will get slower and slower... The few "professionals" as you mentioned that elects to take the train now often is driving from points further west to Culver City. I think the demographics will change once Phase 2 opens. Not only will the train go thru the heart of West LA residential core with stations in Palms, Rancho Park, and Bundy, it will also serve areas with high paying jobs in Uptown and Mid Town Santa Monica. Culver City has a ton of professionals who work in Downtown and so does Palms and other surrounding areas. These people in many cases, started using Expo thinking they could save on high Downtown parking costs and then abandoned it based on the slow ride and told their friends and colleagues not to use it. There is no need for 5 minute headways when Phase II opens. There is almost always plenty of room to sit even in rush hour with the 12 minute headways. 5 minute headways will be great and will eventually be useful for Phase II, but for the first 6-12 months, they will be unnecessary so I just don't see the lack of trains being an issue unless there is a problem with the order or by some miracle Phase II is ready to go before 2016. I would like to say something about my neighborhood. I live near the intersection of Western and Exposition. My wife and I have jobs that would put us in the professional category, though I don't wear a suit and tie to work. Many of our neighbors would be categorized that way too. The difference is my wife and I made a choice to be near Expo so I could take it to work in Culver City daily. However my neighbors have long establish patterns for driving to work. Many have parking available to them at their jobs and don't see a need for taking the train. Remember older transit networks have seen more significant gains compared to LA because the mindset of the community has changed to have them include transit as a reasonable option. Yes, we need more work on the system itself. 5 minute headways on Expo would help. Expo Phase 2, the Regional Connector and the Purple Line Extension will give a great boost to to the theory that transit is viable in LA, but it will take a long time for that to penetrate the habits entrenched residents who believe that driving is the only option. It's Gonna Be A While Before Metro Rail Really Starts Booming - Curbed LA
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Post by masonite on Dec 27, 2013 9:33:45 GMT -8
Culver City has a ton of professionals who work in Downtown and so does Palms and other surrounding areas. These people in many cases, started using Expo thinking they could save on high Downtown parking costs and then abandoned it based on the slow ride and told their friends and colleagues not to use it. There is no need for 5 minute headways when Phase II opens. There is almost always plenty of room to sit even in rush hour with the 12 minute headways. 5 minute headways will be great and will eventually be useful for Phase II, but for the first 6-12 months, they will be unnecessary so I just don't see the lack of trains being an issue unless there is a problem with the order or by some miracle Phase II is ready to go before 2016. I would like to say something about my neighborhood. I live near the intersection of Western and Exposition. My wife and I have jobs that would put us in the professional category, though I don't wear a suit and tie to work. Many of our neighbors would be categorized that way too. The difference is my wife and I made a choice to be near Expo so I could take it to work in Culver City daily. However my neighbors have long establish patterns for driving to work. Many have parking available to them at their jobs and don't see a need for taking the train. Remember older transit networks have seen more significant gains compared to LA because the mindset of the community has changed to have them include transit as a reasonable option. Yes, we need more work on the system itself. 5 minute headways on Expo would help. Expo Phase 2, the Regional Connector and the Purple Line Extension will give a great boost to to the theory that transit is viable in LA, but it will take a long time for that to penetrate the habits entrenched residents who believe that driving is the only option. It's Gonna Be A While Before Metro Rail Really Starts Booming - Curbed LAI hear you and I agree ridership takes a while to grow. However, ridership will grow pretty fast if people feel the service is fast and reliable without too much hassle. Not sure that will ever happen with Expo. If people feel that the time is competitive, ridership will grow fast. Take the Subway to the Sea (or even the current Red Line as an example) - when people see that their neighbors are getting to the office faster and cheaper than they are, ridership grows quickly.
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Post by JerardWright on Dec 28, 2013 10:49:11 GMT -8
The Eastside Gold Line struggles with ridership due to its slow ride as it is often faster to ride a bus. I'd argue with this line -even the Pasadena Gold Line- its ridership is struggling because of the destination(s) the trains DOESN'T reach and that is Downtown. As an aside the Eastside Gold Line doesn't hit the Whittier Boulevard Shopping Corridor which would make it a huge boon to local ridership despite the speed. However the key element for the Eastside ridership is that for those passengers even if the line is subway speed fast, it wouldn't improve its ridership because professionals and transit dependent alike will need to transfer to a bus to reach their destination Downtown, and if they have to transfer to the slower bus to go directly into downtown, they might as well start and end their trip on the same vehicle... the bus. I would like to say something about my neighborhood. I live near the intersection of Western and Exposition. My wife and I have jobs that would put us in the professional category, though I don't wear a suit and tie to work. Many of our neighbors would be categorized that way too. The difference is my wife and I made a choice to be near Expo so I could take it to work in Culver City daily. However my neighbors have long establish patterns for driving to work. Many have parking available to them at their jobs and don't see a need for taking the train. Remember older transit networks have seen more significant gains compared to LA because the mindset of the community has changed to have them include transit as a reasonable option. Yes, we need more work on the system itself. 5 minute headways on Expo would help. Expo Phase 2, the Regional Connector and the Purple Line Extension will give a great boost to to the theory that transit is viable in LA, but it will take a long time for that to penetrate the habits entrenched residents who believe that driving is the only option. It's Gonna Be A While Before Metro Rail Really Starts Booming - Curbed LAI hear you and I agree ridership takes a while to grow. However, ridership will grow pretty fast if people feel the service is fast and reliable without too much hassle. Not sure that will ever happen with Expo. If people feel that the time is competitive, ridership will grow fast. Take the Subway to the Sea (or even the current Red Line as an example) - when people see that their neighbors are getting to the office faster and cheaper than they are, ridership grows quickly. No necessarily faster, reliability is more important. I've always believed Phase 2 of Expo is where the ridership sweet spot will occur because directly parallel to it most of the time is the 10 Freeway and it is notoriously congested from Santa Monica to Culver City where it takes upwards of 45 minutes to go from the jobs in Santa Monica to Culver City most afternoon rush hours. A perfect example in hitting the ridership sweet spot is with the Red Line where it reached Hollywood ridership was good for a solid 50K riders a day, it went to the roof when it went over the Cauhenga Pass to reach Universal City and North Hollywood and its kept the ridership up since then because the Red Line provides an alternative to the congested 101 Pass.
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