Boring Company proposals

[numble]

Elon Musk's Boring Company has now proposed a "Dugout Loop", a tunnel between East Hollywood (with a branch to a Red Line station) and Dodger Stadium, tunneling under Sunset Blvd. They are also exploring building a tunnel between the Purple and Expo lines.
www.boringcompany.com/dugout

Dugout Loop will begin at the Dodger Stadium property and will proceed under Vin Scully Avenue and Sunset Boulevard. The western terminus will be located on private property owned by The Boring Company and will be located within the vicinity of a Metro Red Line station.

There are three Metro Red Line stations located in the vicinity of the western terminus that will be evaluated in the review process for the proposed project: Vermont/Sunset Station, Vermont/Santa Monica Station, and Vermont/Beverly Station. See map below. Only one of the three station options will be selected.

...

As part of the CEQA process, the Initial Study (IS) and Notice of Preparation (NOP) for the Dugout Loop process will be available for public review from August 16, 2018 to September 17, 2018. A public scoping meeting will be held at Dodger Stadium, 1000 Vin Scully Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90012, on August 28, 2018 from 6:15 pm to 9:00 pm. Please visit LABOE’s website for more information on the location and availability of the IS for public review. For more information on the location and availability of the IS for public review, please visit LABOE’s website at: eng.lacity.org/dugout-loop.

...

Previously, The Boring Company proposed a test tunnel under Sepulveda as a proof of concept for tunneling in Los Angeles. However, this test tunnel proposal did not include passenger operations and included only one surface terminal (as opposed to two). The Boring Company has made technical progress much faster than expected and has decided to make its first tunnel in Los Angeles an operational one, hence Dugout Loop!

The Boring Company is excited to build useful public transportation tunnels in Los Angeles, including by Sepulveda, and is exploring concepts for potential future alignments. One initial conceptual idea is a tunnel connection between Metro’s Purple and Expo lines.

[culvercitylocke]

here's an extensive article in Wired

www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-los-angeles-dodger-stadium/

I'm guessing Concept three because concept one has a missed connection to the redline and and Concept three is the shortest and also roughly parallels the freeway.

the insane part of the plan is that it is a one way tunnel, so they think they can just park 100+ skates at either terminus. Or possibly send empty ones back to pick up more passengers.

1400 tickets per event, and you have to reserve tickets in advance.

at a dollar a ticket, that's 14,000 per event, with 81 home games thats' $1.1 million per season.

It's a vanity project/proof of concept.

How can the costs work.

Well if dual bore costs 800 million per mile in LA let's say half is station costs, so actually lets say it's 400 million per mile

now say well it's 200 million per mile but we will make the tunnels smaller, instead of 8.5 meter diameter with 18.2 cubic meters per meter excavated we have 4.25 meter diameter tunnel for only 4.55 cubic meters per meter

That's a four fold reduction in volume excavated, which saves on costs, and probably allows for increased meters per day to be excavated.

obviously given capital overhead, that four fold reduction doesn't translate to a commensurate cost reduction, but let's say it reduces by a factor of a bit less than three, now we go from 200 million to about 75 million per mile.

Not bad not bad.

since the tunnel is only four miles long, and you're down to a cost of 300 million, it will only take Elon 300 years to recoup his investment.

ON the other hand, say they reduce it an order of magnitude, down to cost of 7.5 million per mile and it's only 30 million to build?

in that case, drill baby drill.

[numble]

Aug 15, 2018 22:39:07 GMT -8 culvercitylocke said:

here's an extensive article in Wired

www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-los-angeles-dodger-stadium/

I'm guessing Concept three because concept one has a missed connection to the redline and and Concept three is the shortest and also roughly parallels the freeway.

the insane part of the plan is that it is a one way tunnel, so they think they can just park 100+ skates at either terminus. Or possibly send empty ones back to pick up more passengers.

1400 tickets per event, and you have to reserve tickets in advance.

at a dollar a ticket, that's 14,000 per event, with 81 home games thats' $1.1 million per season.

It's a vanity project/proof of concept.

How can the costs work.

Well if dual bore costs 800 million per mile in LA let's say half is station costs, so actually lets say it's 400 million per mile

now say well it's 200 million per mile but we will make the tunnels smaller, instead of 8.5 meter diameter with 18.2 cubic meters per meter excavated we have 4.25 meter diameter tunnel for only 4.55 cubic meters per meter

That's a four fold reduction in volume excavated, which saves on costs, and probably allows for increased meters per day to be excavated.

obviously given capital overhead, that four fold reduction doesn't translate to a commensurate cost reduction, but let's say it reduces by a factor of a bit less than three, now we go from 200 million to about 75 million per mile.

Not bad not bad.

since the tunnel is only four miles long, and you're down to a cost of 300 million, it will only take Elon 300 years to recoup his investment.

ON the other hand, say they reduce it an order of magnitude, down to cost of 7.5 million per mile and it's only 30 million to build?

in that case, drill baby drill.

I guess since they are only doing one tunnel, tunneling costs are halved compared to dual-bore. They also think they can double capacity, so 2400 people. Maybe they charge for one way trips, and maybe they can get away with charging $2 each way ($4 round trip) and still get away with the “around one dollar” claim. That still leaves it with only $907,000 per year.

It could also make any future subway by Metro under Sunset or Santa Monica more difficult as they would need to go under this tunnel, but since there is no such subway planned, I guess it would not be a valid complaint.

[culvercitylocke]

Here's the engineering document. the second purple shaded map indicates possible station terminus zones. I think that even more illustrates that concept one is unlikely, the terminus is a long way from the red line station portals.

eng.lacity.org/sites/g/files/wph726/f/NOP_IS.pdf

An approximately 3.6-mile Main Artery Tunnel would run connect Dodger Stadium to Los Feliz/East
Hollywood/Rampart Village neighborhoods entirely beneath public ROW or land owned or controlled
by TBC. The tunnel would have a boring diameter of 14 feet, an outer diameter of 13.5 feet, and an inner
diameter of 12 feet.

The crown (top) and invert (bottom) of the tunnel would be would be approximately 30 and 44 feet
below the ground surface, respectively; however, in cases where underground infrastructure (e.g.
utilities, bridge piles, subterranean pipelines, etc.) exists at greater-than-normal depth, tunnel depth
would increase accordingly. Additionally, the tunnel is generally constructed at a gradient of less than
2% grade; therefore, depths tend to vary in areas where the ground surface is steeper than two degrees.
As such, depths to top of crown are anticipated to range from as shallow as approximately 30 feet to 70
feet, but can be deepened if necessary to accommodate subsurface conditions.

Following construction of the Main Artery Tunnel, TBC would install the concrete “shelves” inside the
tunnel, which serve as the guideway for the electric skates (Figure 3). The track concrete is slip formed,
similarly to how street sidewalks are installed. Other tunnel infrastructure would be installed in parallel,
including power, lighting, video, ventilation, safety systems, and communication systems.

the shelves provide emergency egress walkways and there are drilled surface access ports which occur every half mile.

it is not a rail, it's a rubber tire guideway:

Passengers would be transported through the Main Artery Tunnel in electric skates, which are electric
public transportation vehicles based on a modified Tesla Model X chassis. Electric skates are confined by
horizontal Shelves (Figure 3) using four pneumatic rubber automotive tires as the primary support
devices for vertical, lateral and longitudinal forces to the vehicle. The electric skates engage the vertical
wall of the curb (“Alignment Wheel Surface”) using two non-pneumatic alignment wheels that steer the
two pneumatic rubber tires at the front of the vehicle. The rear of the vehicle is also equipped with
alignment wheels that would not be in constant engagement with the Alignment Wheel Surface. This
allows the vehicle to be driven in reverse for contingency scenarios and allows the skate to negotiate
tighter turns at low speed without the rear tires scuffing the curb.

To follow up on some of my above math on tunneling Obviously I missed the round trip part, so a one dollar fare is 2M in revenue per annum not 1M

purple line budget is 8.2 billion. Stations cost .5B each, and there are 7, which is 3.5B, which is a remainder project budget of 4.7B. However there's the pseudo station extraction pit at Wilshire western, and the launch pit at century city, each of which probably cost about .1B each, so we're down to about 4.5B for the remainder of the project budget. Let's say that 2.25B accounts for all other projects costs unrelated to tunneling. that leaves us with a budget of 2.25B to tunnel 9.1 miles that equals a cost of 250M/per mile of tunneling.

But that is for dual bore, we can cut that in half for a single bore tunnel or 125M per mile of tunneling.

But as outlined in the above post, diameter is a big driver of cost, so let us say that a 14 foot tunnel reduces costs from the metro baseline by a factor of three.

That is 41.66M per mile of tunneling. At 3.6 miles of tunnel that's a cost of 150M or 75 years to recoup at $1 fares. or 18 years to recoup at $4 fares.

This is very very real, I think they can actually do it.

[andert]

Hrm, I still wouldn't want this to happen since *one day* there should be a tunnel under sunset there. The silver line, if i remember correctly, is at least in Metro's latest long-range plan, so there is a valid concern there.

I'm not against TBC building a proof-of-concept tunnel at their own expense to try to demonstrate the value of PRT, but this doesn't seem like the route. MAYBE a route between Union and Dodger Stadium? It wouldn't be tunneling under public ROW's, but it's a shorter route and probably more useful anyway, and if planned right wouldn't preclude anything else.

I think a larger-scale use of this system that fits in well with Metro's plans would be through parts of WeHo/Fairfax. Say, if Metro does decide to build Crenshaw North as La Brea, *and* decides to build a Santa Monica spur that will eventually go down San Vincente (far-fetched, but I am clinging to this as it is by far the smartest option, IMO), then a PRT system bounded by the Red Line, Purple Line, Crenshaw Line, and this new line (Pink Line? Silver Line?) that hits the Grove, Melrose, all the Fairfax destinations, and the stations on the edges could be great. Now, that's obviously a far more expensive system than they're proposing here, so not suitable as a proof of concept (plus would probably have to wait decades until the surrounding LRT/HRT is all built).

Maybe look into whether it makes sense to do the Inglewood APM route as PRT as a proof-of-concept? But ultimately, I think a Union-Dodger route makes *far* more sense for this.

[culvercitylocke]

on access shafts:

Access Shafts would serve as tunnel access points for ventilation, emergency exit, and general tunnel
access. Each Access Shaft would have a diameter of 12 feet utilizing 113 square feet of private land
owned or controlled by TBC adjacent to the alignment. The horizontal side tunnel connection from the
Main Artery Tunnel to the Access Shaft would have a diameter of 12 feet, similar to that of a tunnel spur
for an intermediate Loop Lift. Access Shafts would be spaced approximately 0.5 miles apart, totaling
approximately three to six locations located along the proposed Main Artery Tunnel alignment.
The Access Shafts would be hidden from public view, typically covered with a grate or hidden from view
in the ground floor of an existing building (Figure 5). A newly constructed shed/garage structure may
also be used to enclose the Access Shaft, approximately 15 x 15 feet wide and approximately 8 feet tall.
Other visual screens or modifications would potentially be added depending on surrounding uses and
aesthetics.

The Access Shaft excavation methods would vary depending on the ground conditions and the length of
the tunnel spur. Tunnel spurs would vary in length but would be located directly adjacent to the Main
Artery Tunnel on private land owned or controlled by TBC. Methods of construction include precast
caisson/segmental shaft excavation methods, concrete secant piles, and H piles and lagging. The
footprint required during construction would be less than one-quarter acre and as little as one-tenth
acre. Tunnel spur excavation methods would typically include either pipejacking or SEM

[culvercitylocke]

Aug 16, 2018 8:50:02 GMT -8 andert said:

Hrm, I still wouldn't want this to happen since *one day* there should be a tunnel under sunset there. The silver line, if i remember correctly, is at least in Metro's latest long-range plan, so there is a valid concern there.

I'm not against TBC building a proof-of-concept tunnel at their own expense to try to demonstrate the value of PRT, but this doesn't seem like the route. MAYBE a route between Union and Dodger Stadium? It wouldn't be tunneling under public ROW's, but it's a shorter route and probably more useful anyway, and if planned right wouldn't preclude anything else.

I think a larger-scale use of this system that fits in well with Metro's plans would be through parts of WeHo/Fairfax. Say, if Metro does decide to build Crenshaw North as La Brea, *and* decides to build a Santa Monica spur that will eventually go down San Vincente (far-fetched, but I am clinging to this as it is by far the smartest option, IMO), then a PRT system bounded by the Red Line, Purple Line, Crenshaw Line, and this new line (Pink Line? Silver Line?) that hits the Grove, Melrose, all the Fairfax destinations, and the stations on the edges could be great. Now, that's obviously a far more expensive system than they're proposing here, so not suitable as a proof of concept (plus would probably have to wait decades until the surrounding LRT/HRT is all built).

Maybe look into whether it makes sense to do the Inglewood APM route as PRT as a proof-of-concept? But ultimately, I think a Union-Dodger route makes *far* more sense for this.

A union dodger route absolutely makes more sense, but I'm guessing there are sever problems with right of way turn radius, stakeholder land ownership conflicts at the union station end, and more surface gradients or potential soil contamination or archeological finds in the union station area.

I think they are doing this because a test tunnel under sepulveda does nothing in terms of revenue, and is very clearly only being built as a "starter" backbone piece, so it will never get the CEQA exemption they're seeking.

Thus they need a better proof of concept approach, they have to do CEQA but the boring company tunnels / service ONLY work if they are an-end-to-end direct shot. Like an Airport to Downtown express in Chicago.

public transportation depends on frequent access so stops every .25-1.0 miles, That blows your budget and construction timeline out to insane levels as every station is a gargantuan super-palace and insanely expensive.

So if Sepulveda is quietly off the table, Musk et al need to find a demonstration option that is a feasible business model, so they need a _short_ fairly direct route that can be end-to-end with no intermediary stops.

If they were to do this in west hollywood, it is no good to anyone unless it has four-six stops. but it is only profitable if it only has terminus stops, so it's not a good option there.

So this Dodger stadium solution is quite interesting. The surface traffic access is heavily congested, fairly direct, and the route has at least a nominal interest in being a plausible transfer from public transit.

I think it was chosen not as a site of maximum utility but as a site to demonstrate the functional utility of short bypass end-to-end routes as an economically feasible model for naturally constrained corridors where an alternative is desirable if the costs can bear it.

In other words. if they can build this. They can build an LAX to downtown express under the right of way (3x the length for 3x the fares)--particularly if they build an incredible park system on top of the right of way for all the communities they're screwing by shutting them out of access.

[exporider]

Stop worrying about the minute details and look at the big picture.
The problem with all of the concepts that the boring company advertises is that they are all point to point services, whether from Elon's house in Bel Air to his office in Hawthorne, or from a train station on Vermont to Dodger Stadium. As such, they all have extremely limited utility, and aren't worthy of our consideration for solutions to the larger transportation problems encountered in LA.
What we need are solutions that solve transportation problems from multiple origins to multiple destinations.

[culvercitylocke]

Aug 16, 2018 10:06:06 GMT -8 exporider said:

Stop worrying about the minute details and look at the big picture.
The problem with all of the concepts that the boring company advertises is that they are all point to point services, whether from Elon's house in Bel Air to his office in Hawthorne, or from a train station on Vermont to Dodger Stadium. As such, they all have extremely limited utility, and aren't worthy of our consideration for solutions to the larger transportation problems encountered in LA.
What we need are solutions that solve transportation problems from multiple origins to multiple destinations.

Yup exactly what I was trying to get at. Their ideal scenario is not in solving MO-MD problem, they want to make something nice and marginally useful to rich people that solves a rich people “problem”. When Uber first started off, I remember someone astutely saying the central reason Uber was created is that it solved the “problem” of white millennials who eschew transit who want to get extremely drunk but do not want to take a cab. It was never meant as a first mile last mile solution it was meant to solve a particular upper class young white person problem.



A lot of rich people ardently believe they are too rich to deal with traffic—it’s why they fund think tanks who put out papers saying that the problem is too many poor people driving and that the cost of driving must be raised massively to viciously target and punish the poor for driving so that driving and roads may be emptied of the poor and allocated to its proper place as only reserved for the elites.

The boring company at least bypasses the class warfare transit advocates routinely engage in when they try to “force” more people to take transit by raising the costs of driving with parking and congestion fees that are aimed to increase inequality and attack and destroy the quality of life of the poor.

But bottom line we in Los Angeles are getting this free because they want to sell tunnels-for-the-rich globally and need to prove it, this is a good proof of the single tunnel system.

And when not in use the tunnel is a valuable research and testing ground for them as they experiment and innovate

[numble]

Aug 15, 2018 22:39:07 GMT -8 culvercitylocke said:

1400 tickets per event, and you have to reserve tickets in advance.

at a dollar a ticket, that's 14,000 per event, with 81 home games thats' $1.1 million per season.

I think you need to take off one zero to those revenue calculations. 1400 tickets at a dollar a ticket is $1400, not $14,000.

[cygnip2p]

Musk is great at self promotion and not actual good ideas, and this is another great example of that. It's trash, but lets be real, Metro aint building anything to Dodger stadium in any of our lifetimes regardless of whether Musk builds this thing or not.

And I bet they don't have any real intention of building this anyway. Just some more press.

[culvercitylocke]

Aug 16, 2018 19:14:26 GMT -8 numble said:

Aug 15, 2018 22:39:07 GMT -8 culvercitylocke said:

1400 tickets per event, and you have to reserve tickets in advance.

at a dollar a ticket, that's 14,000 per event, with 81 home games thats' $1.1 million per season.

I think you need to take off one zero to those revenue calculations. 1400 tickets at a dollar a ticket is $1400, not $14,000.

Damn brainfart

[exporider]

With all the money the dodgers are getting from our cable bills they should be able to fund both of these projects from their petty cash drawer.

[numble]

We shall soon see how effective (or not) the system would be, with Las Vegas as the guinea pig: