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Post by Jason Saunders on Sept 10, 2008 21:17:22 GMT -8
No, it's not OK to build unsafe grade separations. Just as it is not OK to build unsafe at grade crossings. I don't think anyone advocates building anything unsafe no matter what side of the argument you are on. Bassed on the numbers I posted above it would appear at grade crossings are less safe.
In regards to efficiency, by grade separating faster travel times can be allotted for thus increasing efficiency both in terms of time and capacity.
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Post by darrell on Sept 10, 2008 23:24:30 GMT -8
... Bassed on the numbers I posted above it would appear at grade crossings are less safe. In regards to efficiency, by grade separating faster travel times can be allotted for thus increasing efficiency both in terms of time and capacity. The Pasadena Gold Line is mostly at-grade, has had an excellent safety record for five years, and has a fast average speed. It's more compatible with the scale of its communities, much less expensive, and more convenient for riders than if it had been built with extensive aerial grade separations.
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Post by damiengoodmon on Sept 11, 2008 6:44:13 GMT -8
Saunders,
All of them have admitted as much in the past - just check the board archives. But now so many on this board have taken positions against adding any grade separation at any location on Phase 1 of the Expo Line, including OPPOSITION TO ANY CHANGE at the Farmdale Avenue crossing next to Dorsey HS, that they're now back-flipping their way to state that at-grade is just as safe, when all of the facts and just basic logic suggest otherwise.
Understand you're not in a debate with individuals that intend on being intellectually honest, but instead are concerned with providing Metro the "grassroots political cover to do what they want."
Apparently it's not enough, as Expo has gone out and hired a $167K spin firm that specializes in creating the appearance of support for controversial projects.
The irony of it all of course, is regardless of how I feel how accurate the figure is, according to Metro's estimates for the Wilshire subway ($450-510 million per mile in 2008 dollars), 1 mile of the Wilshire subway is enough to grade separate all of the Expo Line from Washington/Flower to La Cienega. Just a little over half of $510 million would be enough to take care of the Fix Expo's concerns between the Figueroa trench and La Brea. (Now watch the back-flipping and spinning on this one...)
Oh and by the way the Blue Line is now up to 821 accidents as of the June 2008 report. Some 70-75% of them were in the street running portion, a.k.a. median or side street running where the train operates with no crossing gates up to 35 mph (i.e. Washington Blvd, Flower Street, and City of Long Beach).
The Expo Line operates in a similar street running mode down Flower St. to Gramercy Place (just past Western) and across Crenshaw, although with far more complicating factors (Expo crossings have more roadway stresses imposed on them). Nothing like this operation is on the Pasadena Gold Line, which at streets with high vehicular traffic like Adams/Flower, Vermont, Western and Crenshaw has grade separation (Lake Ave and Colorado Blvd), and all other streets have crossing gates, except for the 0.75 mile portion in Marmion Way on a highly residential street where the trains are slowed to 15-20 mph. And yet there are still accidents there.
Darrell knows that, and others are just as knowledgeable as me about the differences between the Expo and the Pasadena Gold and similarities between the Expo and Blue, but it won't stop him from spinning and spinning and spinning.
You're sure to see pictures of Phoenix and Portland in his reply to this post. Pictures are his typical responses to data.
It would all be comical if we weren't talking about life and death, maim and injury.
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Post by Tony Fernandez on Sept 11, 2008 9:58:46 GMT -8
Apparently it's not enough, as Expo has gone out and hired a $167K spin firm that specializes in creating the appearance of support for controversial projects. How evil of them to try and defend their position.
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dane
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by dane on Sept 11, 2008 11:47:17 GMT -8
Apparently it's not enough, as Expo has gone out and hired a $167K spin firm that specializes in creating the appearance of support for controversial projects. As opposed to creating the appearance of support for fixing Expo, but only in a way that's really meant to kill the line? Or creating the appearance of support for subway construction, but declaring the subway extension "DOA"? Explain it to me, because I just don't get you, sometimes...
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Post by damiengoodmon on Sept 11, 2008 13:56:13 GMT -8
Stand by it if you must, but I don't care what the issue is, I will never defend public agencies using tax dollars to bus-in people to create counter-protests to community protests, and using tax dollars for signature gathers that are paid by the signature. It is so dirty I wouldn't want to be even remotely associated with it. Laws are likely being broken. Almost all feel the same way, and rightfully question those who defend it.
And that's the truly sad part. You don't even recognize how far off the edge of reasonableness you're willing to go.
How will implementing the Fix Expo position kill the line? How many unfounded suppositions, rumors and innuendos must you entertain to deduce that implementing the Fix Expo position would kill the line, or that it is Fix Expo's intent to kill the line? And why did I say the subway extension was DOA?
Please, don't waste your time to answer. They're all rhetorical questions intended to show just how shallow and unfounded the arguments many smart and capable people have utilized on this complex issue.
dane if you don't get it because you've likely never tried to read what has been written at face value. It is crystal clear to those that have.
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Post by masonite on Sept 11, 2008 20:41:43 GMT -8
Saunders, The irony of it all of course, is regardless of how I feel how accurate the figure is, according to Metro's estimates for the Wilshire subway ($450-510 million per mile in 2008 dollars), 1 mile of the Wilshire subway is enough to grade separate all of the Expo Line from Washington/Flower to La Cienega. Just a little over half of $510 million would be enough to take care of the Fix Expo's concerns between the Figueroa trench and La Brea. (Now watch the back-flipping and spinning on this one...) Where do you get only $500M to dig miles of trenches and the necessary overpasses to go over them or tunnels to go under existing streets for Expo? Unless there are detailed engineering documents for this, it seems grossly understated and any other number is just a wild guess. Also, why go and argue against the subway, when you seem to argue for grade separated rail everywhere else? If Expo had to be grade separated, it would fall way down on the list of projects to be funded - decades behind the Purple Line as Expo wouldn't measure up in cost effectiveness vs Purple Line unless you use a grossly understated amount. Don't give me the South LA has been shortchanged bit. They already have one line, have another one under construction and are in line to get yet another one in Crenshaw even though others are more worthy to jump ahead of Crenshaw. Just a few months ago I recall seeing your transit map of which the Wilshire Purple Line Subway was a major component. Now this behavior seems like childish banter and self-promotion when you haven't necessarily gotten your way on one particular project.
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 11, 2008 21:13:22 GMT -8
^ Point 1: tax dollars are not being used to bus in counter-protesters or pay for signatures. So this is a false argument.
^ Point 2: it is not innuendo that you have threatened to kill the line if your solution (subway) is not implemented.
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 11, 2008 21:13:31 GMT -8
The following is my take on safety:
1) Safety is inherently relative (i.e., there is no such thing as 'absolute safety').
2) Therefore, what is an appropriate level of safety is subjective and dependent on people's assessments of costs vs. benefits.
3) The best way to decide much safety is appropriate is through an open political process that is fair and inclusive and reflects the values of the community (the whole community, not just the immediate community).
4) It is inherently unfair to try to override the results of a process that was fair, inclusive and open to the public.
You are clearly intelligent and this argument isn't that complex. So mull it over a bit.
If you're not happy with the results at Farmdale, then fight harder next time. If you're not happy with the Blue Line, then lobby the Metro board to make improvements.
But to threaten a pending project, approved by the public, after it has started just because you didn't get it exactly like you wanted it, is nothing but sour grapes.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Sept 11, 2008 23:06:41 GMT -8
The only street in phase one that has the potential to be grade separated that is not already planned to be separated is Farmdale (Dorsey High). At this time everything else is a mute point. I think the most likely scenario, because it's the least expensive (I assume), is that Farmdale will be closed to through traffic and some kind of pedestrian bridge will be constructed. The money for the bridge will come from a contingency source or other accounts. Also, don't kid yourself if you think this is the last time, schools will raise a stink about grade crossing adjacent to their property. Phase two is the next battle and be assured there will be people who will raise red flags. Maybe they will get in a little earlier in the process.
Who knows, with all of USC's clout they only got one intersection.
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Post by darrell on Sept 11, 2008 23:16:38 GMT -8
Where do you get only $500M to dig miles of trenches and the necessary overpasses to go over them or tunnels to go under existing streets for Expo? Unless there are detailed engineering documents for this, it seems grossly understated and any other number is just a wild guess. It's called "spin". We have one real cost reference to work from. Construction package A3, for the approx. 1/3-mile Flower-Figueroa trench structure, cost $38 million (rounded, per 6/7/07 and 5/1/08 Expo Board agendas). That doesn't include contingency, soft costs, or any stations. The distance from Washington & Flower to La Cienega & Jefferson is about 6.5 miles. Simple multiplication of 6.5 x 3 x $38 million = $741 million. Then add subterranean stations, soft costs, inflation, and current contract cancellation costs.
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Post by jejozwik on Sept 12, 2008 5:14:04 GMT -8
The distance from Washington & Flower to La Cienega & Jefferson is about 6.5 miles. Simple multiplication of 6.5 x 3 x $38 million = $741 million. Then add subterranean stations, soft costs, inflation, and current contract cancellation costs. dont forget the cost of moving those ever elusive utilities...
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Post by darrell on Sept 12, 2008 7:49:09 GMT -8
dont forget the cost of moving those ever elusive utilities... Agreed, utilities are a typical issue for underground construction. In the case of the Figueroa underpass it was another $3 million to move a big water line ( Novermber 2, 2006): RECOMMENDATION
1. Authorize the CEO to issue Notice-To-Proceed for Contract Package A(4), 61" Water Line Relocation, in the amount of $3,058,355; and 2. Authorize a Construction Contingency of $140,000 or 5% of the direct cost, for a total authorization of $3,198,355.
SUMMARY
This construction package consists of the replacement of a large diameter water line, crossing under the Exposition ROW just east of Figueroa St. At its current location, the water line would penetrate the trench structure associated with the undercrossing of Flower and Figueroa Streets. Approximately 300 feet of water line will be relocated below and slightly to the west of the future trench structure. Farmdale has a big storm drain box. I also didn't add in the contingency, usually 5%.
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Post by damiengoodmon on Sept 12, 2008 8:19:43 GMT -8
Where do you get only $500M to dig miles of trenches and the necessary overpasses to go over them or tunnels to go under existing streets for Expo? Unless there are detailed engineering documents for this, it seems grossly understated and any other number is just a wild guess. Perhaps I was unclear. I meant ADDITIONAL dollars. $245-305 million is the additional construction cost of Figueroa trench to La Brea. And unless you know which utilities are already being moved and where, how could you possibly know whether the numbers are accurate or not? I do. So do the engineering students and professors at U.S.C. and the engineering firm that built and designed stations on the Red and Green Line and did early environmental work on Expo. And I did not say all underground or all elevated. I said grade separated. Why would the cost include the portions that are already grade separated? The problem with so many in this crowd is that instead of actually pulling your capable minds together to read what has been written or think of plausible explanations to an apparent paradox, you immediately go to the "childish banter and self-promotion" explanations. It's all rather petty and does a disservice to this important discussion. Well thank you for that astute and definitive rejection substantiated by so many facts. I'm not going to argue the point with you. I could show you video and you'd claim the camera was fixed. I could show you pictures and you'd say they were taken at a different time. Explain to me how I'm wrong. When and where? "The best way?" I'm not going to even start with that. This is why I rarely come around here. "Fight harder next time"? "Fair, inclusive and open to the public"? The implication that this line is being built this way because people didn't fight or didn't adequately participate in the process is just too rich. Do you have any idea how hard people who work in government or have dealt with a big-dollar government project that was controversial laugh when they hear such comments? That's the problem with transit advocacy in this region. To think that decisions are made by communities and individual citizens or citizen's groups is intuitively and fundamentally contrary to reality. That's why you attack those that don't agree with you instead of focusing your sights on the real targets.
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Post by darrell on Sept 12, 2008 8:42:57 GMT -8
So did I. The contract cost of the 1/3-mile Figueroa-Flower underpass structure doesn't include the trackwork, traction power, or train control that is the same whether tracks are at-grade or grade-separated. Nor does it include the substantially increased cost of below-ground stations, even if they're in open cuts.
Source?
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Post by darrell on Sept 12, 2008 9:17:29 GMT -8
A confession! Not to mention Eastside Los Angeles, or the new San Francisco T-line (below), all comparable to the short boulevard-median section of Expo from Vermont to Gramercy.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Sept 12, 2008 10:58:57 GMT -8
It looks like a very slow moving trolley. :*)
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Post by darrell on Sept 12, 2008 12:52:07 GMT -8
It looks like a very slow moving trolley. :*) Like this?
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Post by metrocenter on Sept 12, 2008 14:54:07 GMT -8
"The best way?" I'm not going to even start with that. Why not? Do you disagree? If an open political process that is fair and inclusive is not the way to decide the appropriate level of safety, then what is? Why do you feel it is fair to negate the results of a process that was in full compliance with public environmental process law?
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Post by Jason Saunders on Nov 28, 2008 23:36:37 GMT -8
www.downtownnews.com/articles/2008/12/01/news/news_briefs/12-01-08-at05.txtMan Dies After Being Struck by Blue Line News Brief DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - A 54-year-old man who was hit on the evening of Nov. 22 by a southbound Metro Blue Line train in Downtown died last week from his injuries, officials said. The man, whose name was not released, stepped in front of a southbound train, south of the Pico Metro Station on Flower Street, near where the train goes under the Santa Monica Freeway, Metro spokesman Rick Jager said. The Los Angeles Police Department is investigating the incident. The victim was transported to California Hospital Medical Center, where he died from his injuries early on Nov. 23, Jager said. "We try to do everything we possibly can to ensure that both buses and trains are operating in a safe fashion," Jager said, "but it's a two-way street.... The pedestrians need to abide by the laws in terms of the right of way for trains and they need to stop, look and listen."
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Post by bluelineshawn on Nov 29, 2008 11:20:38 GMT -8
^FTR I think that fatality was classified as a suicide.
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Post by Jason Saunders on May 22, 2009 10:06:00 GMT -8
Another person was hit and killed by a Blue Line train this week. ________________ www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-trainhit22-2009may22,0,4197760.story Metro Blue Line train kills man near downtown L.A. The victim, 45, was trying to cross the tracks at an intersection when he was struck, police say. Associated Press 9:46 PM PDT, May 21, 2009 A man was struck and killed Thursday by a train on light rail tracks near downtown Los Angeles. City Fire Department spokesman Brian Humphrey said the accident occurred on the Metro Blue Line about 2:30 p.m., about three miles south of downtown. Officer Jason Lee of the Los Angeles Police Department said a 45-year-old man was trying to cross the tracks at an intersection when he was struck by the train. He died at the scene. Humphrey said the pedestrian was trapped under the train about five blocks south of the Vernon Station.
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Post by Gokhan on May 22, 2009 10:45:23 GMT -8
Two Blue Line pedestrian hits happened yesterday within five and a half hours. A man got hit and killed at 48th Pl and the four-track Blue Line right-of-way. A coworker of mine was riding the line at that time and saw the aftermath. There were long delays and overcrowded trains due to single-tracking. A woman later that day got hit and stuck under the train and had critical head injuries on Flower St near Venice Blvd in the segment to be shared with the Expo Line.
What can be done to reduce these pedestrians hits? Better signaling? More signs and warning? Pedestrian gates? Yellow rubber markings on asphalt? Fencing?Woman critical after being hit by trainFrom wire service reports Posted: 05/22/2009 07:11:52 AM PDT Updated: 05/22/2009 07:11:52 AM PDT A woman was critically injured when she was struck by a Metro train Thursday night, the second such incident in about 5 1/2 hours, authorities said. The 49-year-old victim, whose name was not released, was struck by a Metro Blue Line train in the 1500 block of South Flower Street, near Venice Boulevard, at about 8 p.m. said Brian Humphrey of the Los Angeles Fire Department. It was not immediately clear which direction the train was moving. Firefighters responding to the scene found the woman trapped underneath one of the cars, Humphrey said. She was removed and taken to California Hospital Medical Center and underwent treatment for serious head injuries. Several people witnessed the crash, and Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies were at the scene conducting interviews to determine how the woman got on to the tracks. The woman was the second person struck by a Metro Blue Line train today. At about 2:30 p.m. an approximately 55-year-old man was struck by a northbound train in the 1600 block of East 48th Street, near Long Beach Avenue. He was also trapped under a car and pronounced dead at the scene.
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Post by spokker on May 22, 2009 11:11:02 GMT -8
This country could properly fund mass transit on the same level as they do highway and roads, which could spur a Blue Line revitalization project that results in more underground sections, more grade separations, and better safety features.
This racist outdated rail line really needs it.
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Post by Gokhan on May 22, 2009 11:29:31 GMT -8
I would say complete fencing and idiot-proof pedestrian warning devices should be sufficient. Yellow rubber markings at crossings would also help substantially.
Chances are that most people on this board won't see much change to the grade crossings of the Downtown Connector (at Alameda and 1st and between the Expo/Blue Line portal and Washington) and of the Expo and Blue Lines in their lifetime.
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Post by Tony Fernandez on May 22, 2009 11:58:51 GMT -8
Although crossing a track and not looking for a train seems pretty stupid to me, putting a fence and having crossing gates everywhere would remove all doubt.
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Post by spokker on May 22, 2009 12:19:22 GMT -8
The Blue Line has actually done some good. From a poster on LAist:
God bless the Blue Line.
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Post by metrocenter on May 22, 2009 12:39:49 GMT -8
I agree, more could be done to isolate even the at-grade sections of the Blue and Gold Lines. For instance, more fencing along running stretches, and more signage at the crossings.
Nobody will argue that more grade separation is better. The problem is the cost. If the ultimate cost is that the line doesn't get built, then IMO, that cost is too high to bear for this traffic-clogged region.
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Post by hooligan on May 22, 2009 18:25:11 GMT -8
Nobody will argue that more grade separation is better. The problem is the cost. If the ultimate cost is that the line doesn't get built, then IMO, that cost is too high to bear for this traffic-clogged region. So lets build stuff on the cheap just for the sake of having it built? Id rather have nothing built if thats the case. Either build something right the first time or don't build anything at all.
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Post by crzwdjk on May 22, 2009 18:33:57 GMT -8
I think the standard exit gate that they install at pedestrian crossings could be modified somewhat to be more safe. I suggest installing an electric lock on it that locks the gate when a train is approaching, together with a push-bar to open the door from the track side in this case. And maybe a few more flashing lights specifically for the pedestrians, just to make it completely obvious when a train is coming.
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