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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:24:47 GMT -8
Item moved by Antonio, seconded by Zev, amended as above by Zev, approved unanimously.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 10:25:15 GMT -8
Item 22 - acceptance of the DEIR and the LPA for the Westside Subway Extension - has passed, with Yaroslavsky's amendment. BTW in his final comments, Yaroslavsky stated very clearly that Constellation is better because it is in the center of Century City, as opposed to Santa Monica Blvd, which is on the tangent of Century City. He also said that if the subway is unsafe under Beverly Hills, then it is unsafe everywhere. His point being: don't worry, it is safe. This is a historic day, I wish I could've been there.
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Post by Justin Walker on Oct 28, 2010 10:26:36 GMT -8
Listening at work, on the phone (213-922-6045). Anyone else get a dead line at that number?
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 10:29:06 GMT -8
I'm on it right now. Just for verification, the phone number (213-922-6045) is here.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:36:08 GMT -8
His point being: don't worry, it is safe. On the contrary his point (and amendment) was that we will now carefully study to make sure that it's safe and we will not build it unless it is safe. I thought you were the biggest fan of the Westside subway. I would have never missed such an historic Expo meeting.
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 28, 2010 13:42:39 GMT -8
Why doesn't the Valley lobby its politicians to repeal the Robbins law? Because it's too late. The valley already has BRT instead of LRT, and tearing it down would mean wasting a new investment and stopping existing transit service for years. I refuse to accept that the San Fernando Valley has to be stuck with a measly busway for all eternity because of the actions of some NIMBYs and a crooked politician 20 years ago. One option is an at-grade modern streetcar running on Ventura Blvd. in a transit only lane between Universal City and Warner Center. If were going to have a "subway", I'd put it under Ventura Blvd. to Universal City and then Olive to the Burbank Metrolink (and possibly HSR) station. In any event, the San Fernando Valley deserves an east-west rail line of its own from Pasadena to Warner Center however you get there and they shouldn't have to go without because of the actions of a corrupt politician and his band of NIMBYs.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 13:49:29 GMT -8
I thought you were the biggest fan of the Westside subway. I would have never missed such an historic Expo meeting. I have a 9-5 job and I couldn't make it to the meeting. My team's project is due in two days, it would be irresponsible for me not to be at work. Anyway, I think I more than made up for it with all the emails and letters I sent and meetings I attended.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 14:24:02 GMT -8
I thought you were the biggest fan of the Westside subway. I would have never missed such an historic Expo meeting. I have a 9-5 job and I couldn't make it to the meeting. My team's project is due in two days, it would be irresponsible for me not to be at work. Anyway, I think I more than made up for it with all the emails and letters I sent and meetings I attended. I understand. Job comes first. I was teasing you as I sometimes do.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 16:31:39 GMT -8
Now, the interesting thing to see will be if these things can actually be built in ten years. Of course, our transit dreams can start being shattered starting Tuesday night. Time will be of essence now. The federal loans must be secured as fast as possible within the next two years, before more political "change" comes.
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Post by darrell on Oct 28, 2010 17:21:54 GMT -8
Here's the historic vote! Yes, the public comment began with much hand-wringing by Beverly Hills people about the “safety of the children”, but never made a clear connection between that and a subway tunnel under the high school. One good note I hadn't thought of, from Charles Adelman, was that a station at Constellation better serves all the people who work at the Fox studio south of Olympic. To counter the usual BRU stuff about not reducing traffic congestion I emphasized that the subway will provide fast, reliable trips of less than 1/2 hour from Westwood to Downtown and adds rush-hour capacity of more than half of the Santa Monica Freeway. Also, did anyone catch what staff said at the beginning about study of a connection from Crenshaw to Hollywood? The only reference to it in The Source was: "Supervisor Mark Ridley-Thomas, in a committee meeting last week, requested that Metro staff report back later this year on what could be done to study a future transit project to serve the West Hollywood area."
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 17:31:33 GMT -8
One good note I hadn't thought of, from Charles Adelman, was that a station at Constellation better serves all the people who work at the Fox studio south of Olympic. Century City is named after the 20th Century Fox studios after all.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2010 20:49:55 GMT -8
What was the reason Antonovich abstained from this vote? It's very puzzling. He was just approved the Gold Line foothill extension by the Board. He's not like MRT who's advocating for a fully underground Crenshaw Line in his district with a FEIR outstanding. What's Antonovich's beef? Was it the smack talk from A. Narajan about the 710 tunnel not being the "tunnel he supports"?
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Post by trackman on Oct 29, 2010 5:44:12 GMT -8
What was the amended final motion? It seems with all the comments about treating different groups the same or being equitable regarding safety concerns, that the selected alignment could be re-thought.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 29, 2010 7:19:02 GMT -8
What was the reason Antonovich abstained from this vote? It's very puzzling. He was just approved the Gold Line foothill extension by the Board. Antonovich is f****** d*****, in my opinion far worse than MRT or any other supervisor in my memory. He has been a supervisor since 1980, and has fought Metro Rail since before there was Metro Rail. (Of course he is fine with the Foothill Line because it is in his own district and he is a hypocrite.) He especially can't stand anything that is built within Los Angeles city limits. He will finally be term-limited out in 2016, but he will likely be in power until then (assuming he gets reelected in 2012 - which he will because supervisors are little emperors who rarely get voted out of office). ( wiki page) His abstention here is no surprise. And his arguments with Villaraigosa about part C of Item 22 (the Westside Subway item) are no surprise, he just wants to be the dark cloud on an otherwise proud day for the County of Los Angeles.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 29, 2010 7:54:10 GMT -8
BTW, here is Metro's image of the LPA, nice and pretty:
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Post by darrell on Oct 29, 2010 8:34:59 GMT -8
In my experience Antonovich has a history of supporting above-ground rail -- which puts him ahead of many Republicans! -- but opposing subways as too expensive. Don't forget his push for a monorail in the Valley instead of extending the subway (which finally became the busway).
I recall him even fondly recalling in a board meeting that he grew up near an old Pacific Electric facility in south L.A. When we were lobbying for the Expo Line in 2000 I found it ironic that his staff person was more welcoming than either Yvonne Burke's or Zev Yaroslavsky's. (The latter, of course, became strong and important proponents after we built the public support for the line.)
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Post by JerardWright on Oct 29, 2010 9:01:43 GMT -8
In my experience Antonovich has a history of supporting above-ground rail -- which puts him ahead of many Republicans! -- but opposing subways as too expensive. Don't forget his push for a monorail in the Valley instead of extending the subway (which finally became the busway). Another component, given I've been to many Metro Board meetings in the last 6 years when if there was anything subway, His vote would have been a firm "NO" but his Absension yesterday should be looked at positively because of his past support to have the Regional Connector and Westside Subway go for Federal funding and having the Unanimous vote to have the LRTP approved. But keep in mind he's a politician that is hedging his bests on the cost of the project which is inline to most of his constiuents.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 29, 2010 9:37:26 GMT -8
Well yes, Antonovich is particularly opposed to the subways: "Funding this $10 billion dollar subway to the sea will cripple the regional transportation needs of taxpayers in the County's other 84 cities and unincorporated communities," Antonovich said. (link) And he still opposes the Red Line: "The Red Line doesn't even save time," (Antonovich spokesman) Bell said. "It's difficult to park at the Red Line station, and the 101 continues to be a congested mess." (link) We may all take Measure R for granted now, but just two years ago Antonovich was one of the measure's biggest opponents, largely due to its inclusion of subway funding. Measure R is “Robin Hood in reverse” – it takes from the poor and gives to the rich. Taxpayers from across the County are being rolled by the downtown Los Angeles special interests to fund the costly multi-billion dollar subway to the sea. (link) Without Measure R, we would not only not have the Westside Subway, but we would also not have the Regional Connector, the Crenshaw Line, the Foothill Line, and many other projects to look forward to. So despite Antonovich's opposition (and that of Knabe), we can now expect these projects to be built at least in the next 28-or-so years. I don't consider Antonovich's abstention as anything but a tacit, impotent admission that he has failed in his repeated attempts to thwart the Wilshire Subway.
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Post by JerardWright on Oct 29, 2010 9:40:42 GMT -8
Well yes, Antonovich is particularly opposed to the subways: "Funding this $10 billion dollar subway to the sea will cripple the regional transportation needs of taxpayers in the County's other 84 cities and unincorporated communities," Antonovich said. (link) And he still opposes the Red Line: "The Red Line doesn't even save time," (Antonovich spokesman) Bell said. "It's difficult to park at the Red Line station, and the 101 continues to be a congested mess." (link) Well we may all take Measure R for granted now, but just two years ago Antonovich was one of the measure's biggest opponents, largely due to its inclusion of subway funding. Measure R is “Robin Hood in reverse” – it takes from the poor and gives to the rich. Taxpayers from across the County are being rolled by the downtown Los Angeles special interests to fund the costly multi-billion dollar subway to the sea. (link) I know full well on that, but the last component about Measure R passing and polling very well in his constiuency, makes him realize full well of his hypocracy if he gave his usual firm "NO" vote.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 29, 2010 9:51:26 GMT -8
But Antonovich did vote "Yes" on the Regional connector, right?
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Post by darrell on Oct 29, 2010 10:30:49 GMT -8
But Antonovich did vote "Yes" on the Regional connector, right? Yes. The final vote on #20 was 10-0, with Villaraigosa (left early), Molina, and DuBois absent. The San Gabriel Valley representatives (Antonovich and Fasana) understand the importance of the Connector to their Foothill Gold Line. What the hey, here's the final vote tally (they go by so fast, but a photo captures it): And here's the initial failed (didn't receive a majority yes) vote on Ridley-Thomas' motion to not drop the 5th Street station from the Final EIS (see the strike-out text):
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Post by tobias087 on Nov 1, 2010 12:39:56 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Nov 1, 2010 14:23:50 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition. I wish I did.
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Post by wad on Nov 2, 2010 4:33:55 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition. L.A. has several, but in all but a couple of cases, the subway came first.
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Post by trackman on Nov 2, 2010 5:26:31 GMT -8
Addressing this question supports the idea that somehow subways are unsafe. Didn't the Metro Board refute that notion?
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Post by transitfan on Nov 2, 2010 6:14:35 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition. I'm sure there are some in NYC, but I wouldn't begin to know where to look.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 2, 2010 6:39:00 GMT -8
Metro has studied subway tunneling through the Westside and concluded that it's safe. Moreover, the APTA peer review in 2005 concluded the same thing. As Yaroslavsky said at last week's meeting, if tunneling through that area is safe, then it is safe under the school as well. But regardless, per his amendment Metro is going to do additional assessment in the FEIR study just to prove the project's safety beyond any reasonable doubt.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Nov 2, 2010 7:16:20 GMT -8
Yaroslavsky speaks out of two sides of his mouth. zev.lacounty.gov/category/news/transportation/bus-railLook at how well crafted this article is from his website. He highlights the community's concerns as if they were his own and portrays himself as their champion without actually coming down on one side or the other. This makes it easier for him to change position latter. Love him or hate him, the guy is a politician and knows how to play the game. Text From Yaroslavky's official site: ___________ L.A. County Supervisor and Metro director Zev Yaroslavsky is asking for more work on a staff-recommended Westside Subway route that leaves open the possibility of tunneling under Beverly Hills High School. Yaroslavsky, addressing strong community opposition to going under the high school and nearby homes, won support Wednesday from a Metro committee for a broad study of the concerns raised by the residents. “It’s not a done deal,” Yaroslavsky said of the proposed tunnel—a statement that brought a measure of relief to Lisa Korbatov, vice president of the Beverly Hills Board of Education. “We’re thankful he understands our issues,” she said after Metro’s planning and programming committee approved the motion. Korbatov, testifying on behalf of a contingent of riled Beverly Hills officials and residents, said the Metro staff report that includes the possibility of tunneling under the high school is full of “gaping holes and glaring omissions.” The argument that seemed to get the most traction, however, was whether a tunnel under the school would undermine a $334 million bond measure passed in 2008 by Beverly Hills voters to modernize the campus. Among other things, the school plan calls for three levels of subterranean parking, according to Korbatov and other speakers, who said the tunneling would make this impossible. They’re pressing for an alternative route down Santa Monica Boulevard, which also would require further analysis because it sits directly above a seismic fault. Yaroslavsky, in proposing further study, said he did not believe the school garage plan and the subway tunnel were mutually exclusive. “I’m going to take a very hard and objective look at this,” he said. He suggested that the residents of Beverly Hills do the same: “I would encourage you to work with us and keep an open mind.” Specifically, Yaroslavsky is asking the Metro staff to explore a variation on the so-called Constellation Station Option that would avoid going under the historic high school building. He also wants a full exploration of the potential risks of having a subway line and station under Santa Monica Boulevard, on top of a seismic fault. At the heart of the controversy is a Metro staff recommendation for a 9-mile extension of the Purple Line, which would run from Western and Wilshire to the VA Hospital in Westwood. The staff report leaves open where the line’s Century City station should be located–including both the option that goes down Santa Monica Boulevard and the option that goes under Beverly Hills High School. But many in the city are adamantly opposed to any alternative that includes the high school. “Beverly Hills residents do not want tunneling when there’s a viable alternative,” Korbatov said. The full Metro Board of Directors will consider Yaroslavsky’s motion at its October 28 meeting. That’s when the board also will take up the Metro staff’s recommendation for the subway’s “locally preferred alternative” route. Whichever route the board adopts will receive intensive study during the project’s final environmental review process. It also will help place the Westside Subway project in line for federal funding consideration in fiscal 2012. Building the subway, which has a $4.2 billion price tag under the staff-recommended route, will require federal dollars along with revenues from Measure R, the half-cent sales tax approved by voters in 2008.
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K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by K 22 on Nov 2, 2010 7:18:09 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition. I'm sure there are some in NYC, but I wouldn't begin to know where to look. I think there is a line that runs underneath a college in Brooklyn. I'll have to check. This is going to be a tricky find since most of the New York below-grade lines are underneath a street. If it helps anything, there are multiple lines that cross underneath rivers with no trouble.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Nov 2, 2010 7:32:29 GMT -8
Does anybody know of any other subway systems in other cities that go under schools? I feel like that would be a good piece of evidence for our side to present to the Beverly Hills opposition. check out the Jubilee Line in London: www.hulu.com/watch/114764/super-structures-of-the-world-london-undergroundIt goes underneath the historic Big Ben and the houses of Parliament by 60 feet, same distance as the Purple Line and same TBM technology. Both Big Ben and the houses of parliament are FAR more historic then Beverly Hill high school. The above link is a 51 minute episode following the construction of their new line. It speaks of the the soggy soils of the Thames which are prone to subsidence and of course goes into the history of the London Tube. Also, the Euro Tunnel goes under thirty one miles of the English channel also using TBM technology. Another project, no problems. Here is an episode of the same program on the Euro Tunnel: www.hulu.com/watch/114762/super-structures-of-the-world-eurotunnel#s-p3-so-i0
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