|
|
Post by Gokhan on Dec 2, 2008 19:44:43 GMT -8
The Metro Lines in Los Angeles are famous for going from nowhere to nowhere. The Purple Line ends in Koreatown. The Gold Line doesn't reach Downtown Los Angeles. The Green Line claims to go to a "Redondo Beach" Station, which is actually miles north in Lawndale.But, ironically, it turns out that the South Bay is crisscrossed with railroad rights-of-way, thanks to the proximity to the harbor. Some of these rights-of-way are active, while others are abandoned. There is a well-preserved right-of-way, which connects the current Green Line/Harbor Subdivision near PCH/Rosecrans to the future Green Line/Harbor Subdivision near Hawthorne/190th. This right-of-way is 100-ft-wide and it's fully preserved as the "Greenbelt Park." It is roughly halfway between PCH and the beach. It joins an abandoned but fully preserved Pacific Electric right-of-way, 200-ft-wide, at Herondo St in Redondo Beach. This extension of the Green Line would fully serve the Manhattan - Hermosa - Redondo Beach area, being close to both the Pacific Coast Highway and the beach.Note that the Greenbelt Park could still be preserved. The light-rail tracks take 30 ft, leaving 70 ft for the park. Below are the maps and proposed station locations.  High resolution High resolution High resolutionComments and suggestions are welcome.
|
|
|
|
Post by jejozwik on Dec 2, 2008 21:04:22 GMT -8
this is a very interesting suggestion. my only concern with it is the type of people and their income bracket opposing such a line.
also, i dont believe that ridership would be all that spectacular in such an area.
but still, interesting idea
|
|
|
|
Post by kenalpern on Dec 2, 2008 21:27:53 GMT -8
I concur with jejozwik--it IS a very interesting suggestion, but I don't know if the local interest and ridership would be there. I also don't know if this would be preferred by those living in the area who choose to do so because the area is so exclusive and off-the-beaten-path.
That said, I wonder if a quaint trolley connection (a sort of modern-day or even restored red car) wouldn't be popular amongst the residents and the visitors as a way to promote tourism.
The South Bay Cities Council of Governments seems to be entirely focused on getting the Green Line to LAX and to the South Bay Galleria Mall--once those connections are created, it's possible that linking lines such as these would become more attractive in the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonyw79sfv on Dec 2, 2008 21:50:10 GMT -8
That "PCH/Rosecrans Station" is currently overflow parking for Fry's Electronics in Manhattan Beach downhill a bit from the main lot. What's nice about that ROW is that it comes included with grade separation under Sepulveda Blvd/PCH (SR1); it should be put to good use.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 4, 2009 19:16:23 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by ieko on Nov 5, 2009 3:06:39 GMT -8
I just don't see this happening, the Manhattan Beach Village (Fry's parking lot) is in the way, and on Anita/190th there are high voltage power lines & farmland with very steep grades.
Anyway the Green Line will make it to Torrance because that's where the energy is being focused right now to get it to the two new transit centers that'll be built in the next ~5 years on the right of way.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jason Saunders on Nov 5, 2009 8:28:04 GMT -8
It's not a bad idea Gokhan, but I'm afraid I don't see it happening either. Not because of a Fry's parking lot (not an issue) or because of grade (it's probably fine) but because this ROW has been converted to "The Hermosa Valley Greenbelt" You'll never convince these wealthy enclaves to give up their jog path.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan Wentzel on Nov 5, 2009 9:04:41 GMT -8
That reminds me of the BART right-of-way through the San Ramon Valley connecting Walnut Creek to Pleasanton. It was turned into a "horse trail". Making that part of the BART system was seen as a non-starter despite the desire and parked park-and-ride lots because the wealthy wouldn't want to give up the horse trail. (My feeling was, "couldn't we MOVE the horse trail and even create a bigger and better one?")
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 5, 2009 9:37:57 GMT -8
It's probably not necessary to continue along Herondo/190th if this is found to be too expensive. The line would still connect the South Bay to the Green Line in the north.
The station at the currently Fry's overflow parking lot at Sepulveda/Rosecrans would be a trench station very similar to the Expo/USC Station, as there would be a new underpass at Rosecrans. Then the tracks would rise slowly at-grade and the platforms would be partially below grade. The tracks would reach the existing ground level at the existing underpass at Sepulveda. The distance along the tracks between Rosecrans and Sepulveda is about 850 ft, same as the distance between Pardee Way and Trousdale Parkway at USC; so, there is space to do this.
Regarding neighborhood opposition I'm sure there will be some as with any LRT project. But this would blend in with the park, and the park would be more useful with a bicycle and pedestrian path. If the cities wish to do this, this very useful project can happen and take Los Angeles to the next level in transportation.
|
|
Matt
New Member
Posts: 7
|
Post by Matt on Nov 5, 2009 13:15:18 GMT -8
Good luck with that, Gokhan. I grew up in Manhattan Beach and still remember the weekly ATSF deliveries going clackety-clak down the ROW between Valley and Ardmore up until the early 80s. There was even a local ballot initiative (1984???) that would have set aside study money for a historic style PE trolley to run back-and-forth between the Redondo pier and the newly built Manhattan Mall. As you can imagine, opposition to this plan quickly galvanized around the usual NIMBY reasons and the initiative was easily defeated at the polls. I even remember one house overlooking the ROW had painted an old timey locomotive with a big red slash through it on their garage door as a statement of opposition. The anti-train mural lasted several years after the issue was put to rest.
You could probably head down to the Manhattan Beach library or historical society and do more research on the proposal if you're really serious. Archived editions of the Manhattan Beach Reporter or the Easy Reader might have something to say about the issue too.
But also keep in mind that beach communities like Manhattan and Hermosa Beach can be very, very parochial. People identify you by which beach you hang out at (1st Street, 4th Street, Marine, El Porto) and the local attitude is still often wary of anybody and anything "east of Sepulveda".
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 5, 2009 15:10:00 GMT -8
Good luck with that, Gokhan. I grew up in Manhattan Beach and still remember the weekly ATSF deliveries going clackety-clak down the ROW between Valley and Ardmore up until the early 80s. There was even a local ballot initiative (1984???) that would have set aside study money for a historic style PE trolley to run back-and-forth between the Redondo pier and the newly built Manhattan Mall. As you can imagine, opposition to this plan quickly galvanized around the usual NIMBY reasons and the initiative was easily defeated at the polls. I even remember one house overlooking the ROW had painted an old timey locomotive with a big red slash through it on their garage door as a statement of opposition. The anti-train mural lasted several years after the issue was put to rest. You could probably head down to the Manhattan Beach library or historical society and do more research on the proposal if you're really serious. Archived editions of the Manhattan Beach Reporter or the Easy Reader might have something to say about the issue too. But also keep in mind that beach communities like Manhattan and Hermosa Beach can be very, very parochial. People identify you by which beach you hang out at (1st Street, 4th Street, Marine, El Porto) and the local attitude is still often wary of anybody and anything "east of Sepulveda". Very interesting information, Matt, thanks. I wonder if LACMTA owns this right-of-way. It seems to be abandoned around the same time as the Southern Pacific Santa Monica Branch (also known as the Pacific Electric Railway Air Line or the current Metro Expo Line). One good thing about it though it was kept fully intact. Many Pacific Electric rights-of-way in Venice, Santa Monica, Inglewood, Los Angeles, etc. were sold to private developers by their respective cities. That's why the Expo Line terminates at 17th St in Santa Monica, whereas, in the past, it used to go all the way to Inglewood (through Venice and Marina Del Rey) and connect with the ATSF/BNSF Harbor Subdivision there. There will always be NIMBYs. If the cities are willing, things can be built though. Many young people in the beach areas would love to have light-rail. It's usually the older folks who are against rail. But these are the ones who usually own homes next to the tracks in affluent neighborhoods. But the mentality against rail transit is certainly changing. When it reaches Santa Monica, the Expo Line will be an envy for the South Bay beach cities. |
|
|
|
Post by rubbertoe on Nov 5, 2009 16:51:08 GMT -8
Gokhan,
I like the idea, and I believe that it will come to pass one day. I also think that times have changed a lot since 1984 concerning thinking about light rail. Try driving down Sepulveda during rush hour now. I lived in Hermosa back in 1984, but don't remember much about the voting aspect. I'm very familiar with the corridor though. I'm assuming that you would have it at grade since the ROW is so wide?
Once the DTC and this guy are in, I'll be 2 train rides from the Hermosa Beach pier!
RT
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 5, 2009 17:19:28 GMT -8
Gokhan, I like the idea, and I believe that it will come to pass one day. I also think that times have changed a lot since 1984 concerning thinking about light rail. Try driving down Sepulveda during rush hour now. I lived in Hermosa back in 1984, but don't remember much about the voting aspect. I'm very familiar with the corridor though. I'm assuming that you would have it at grade since the ROW is so wide? Once the DTC and this guy are in, I'll be 2 train rides from the Hermosa Beach pier! RT I think so, too, rubbertoe, that this line will happen one day. Yes, I've the picture above, which I took from my car. It's nightmare on Sepulveda there during rush hour. It may take you two hours to travel between Manhattan Beach and Redondo Beach. The line would be a great connection to LAX, Crenshaw Line, and Expo Line. One day, when the Crenshaw Line is extended on San Vicente Blvd to West Hollywood, you would have a direct line between South Bay and West Hollywood. Then, you would be able to take a fast Red Line train to Westwood or Century City from there. The only grade separation needed would be at Rosecrans. An underpass would probably be preferred there given the medical facilities, which would otherwise be next to a rail bridge. Then, there would be a shallow open-trench station, like the Expo/USC Station, in what is currently leased to Fry's as an extra parking lot. There is already an underpass at Sepulveda, which is at least 30-ft-wide I believe. The rest of the right-of-way has only minor crossings -- ideal for a light-rail line. Therefore it would be naturally at-grade. Then, perhaps, a grade separation may also be needed at Herondo at the end of the line. |
|
Matt
New Member
Posts: 7
|
Post by Matt on Nov 5, 2009 21:52:40 GMT -8
More info on the Redondo branch: www.abandonedrails.com/article.asp?id=238and FYI, the locals affectionately called the Sepulveda underpass "Hobo Bridge" as it was a favorite encampment for the occasional transient. |
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 6, 2009 8:55:32 GMT -8
More info on the Redondo branch: www.abandonedrails.com/article.asp?id=238and FYI, the locals affectionately called the Sepulveda underpass "Hobo Bridge" as it was a favorite encampment for the occasional transient. This is great information, Matt, thanks! So, this line was one of the oldest rail lines in Los Angeles and probably the main passenger line for the South Bay before the Pacific Electric electric trains came. It definitely needs to be reused as a transit line as, unlike the other, active ATSF/BNSF Harbor subdivision, which goes through more industrial areas, this ATSF branch has actually the perfect route for a transit line! |
|
|
|
Post by warrenbowman on Nov 6, 2009 10:03:32 GMT -8
A terrific idea, but one that I doubt will ever become a reality. We could maybe get a line as far as Rosecrans and Sepulveda, but the NIMBY's along the existing Greenbelt are quite well-off, and would cut this thing off at the knees. It would make Cheviot Hills look like a walk in the park.
|
|
|
|
Post by stuckintraffic on Nov 6, 2009 14:18:54 GMT -8
Just some thought regarding NIMBYism -- Most of these gray-haired people opposing Expo, and the ones that would likely oppose this proposal are of the generation that killed off rail in the first place. They're the car generation... the one that championed that whole "two cars in every driveway" thing. So why would they be for putting rail lines in place of the ones their contemporaries took out years back?
Couple that with the fact that many of these people are retired (meaning they don't have to deal with traffic that working commuters do) and it makes sense why these people are opposing these transit lines in the way they do. Plus they have the time on their hands to be gadflies!
It seems to be the tide is turning as these NIMBY-types -- pardon putting it so blatantly -- die off. The younger generation just doesn't think like these old folks do. The future looks bright.... I'd say in 20 years the political support for a proposal like this one would exist, but not yet....
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Nov 7, 2009 12:40:58 GMT -8
Just some thought regarding NIMBYism -- Most of these gray-haired people opposing Expo, and the ones that would likely oppose this proposal are of the generation that killed off rail in the first place. They're the car generation... the one that championed that whole "two cars in every driveway" thing. So why would they be for putting rail lines in place of the ones their contemporaries took out years back? Couple that with the fact that many of these people are retired (meaning they don't have to deal with traffic that working commuters do) and it makes sense why these people are opposing these transit lines in the way they do. Plus they have the time on their hands to be gadflies! It seems to be the tide is turning as these NIMBY-types -- pardon putting it so blatantly -- die off. The younger generation just doesn't think like these old folks do. The future looks bright.... I'd say in 20 years the political support for a proposal like this one would exist, but not yet.... Actually that's exactly what I think, stuckintraffic. These people are the ones who were the youth of the 50s, driving their big, fancy American cars around the town with their friends and dates -- the generation of good bye to rail and welcome to cars. What is wrong with them is that part of their brains still thinks that they are young. I was talking to a couple in their 70s living on Exposition and Overland and I asked them if they wanted the train. They laughed and said Yes! But they were just being sarcastic. Then they said, No, we don't want a damned train; we've got cars! Give them another 30 years though, given that many people live close to 100 nowadays.  |
|
|
|
Post by warrenbowman on Nov 7, 2009 20:28:26 GMT -8
I don't disagree with your demographic perspective, but I don't think it applies along the Greenbelt. Most of those homeowners are much younger, and very well-off yuppies who would sooner die than give up their Beemer.
|
|
|
|
Post by kenalpern on Nov 7, 2009 22:07:28 GMT -8
...and, having studied and heard from South Bay representatives for years, I don't think this would be a priority anytime soon compared to...say...the Green Line to the South Bay Galleria (which enjoys a lot of support from Redondo Beach representatives and even the South Bay Cities Council of Governments).
Still, it's always nice to dream, debate and discuss.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Dec 10, 2013 13:33:15 GMT -8
Speaking of railroad right-of-ways suitable for public transit being taken away (like the recent MRT plan to convert the BNSF Slauson right-of-way into a park), they are building a so-called "The Point South Bay" shopping center at Rosecrans and Sepulveda. Looking at the site plan, sadly most of the land use will be surface parking. Car culture continues to thrive. The development is encroaching this old railroad right-of-way where it crosses Rosecreans. So, they certainly didn't consider a future transit line when this development was happening. I wonder what Metro was thinking when they OK'ed the abandoning of the BNSF track there. However, they can still build grade separation across Rosecrans here and build this line perhaps sometime in the future. It's also easier to acquire a parking lot than buildings. Chances are that the developer got the land from BNSF for almost free but when they want to acquire it in the future, they will ask for a fortune for it.  www.thepointsb.com/Ugly American-style car-oriented development keeps thriving... |
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Dec 10, 2013 22:54:29 GMT -8
Although the idea of continuing the Green Line further south is in the "I should live so long category" for some of us who remember the PE, I became familiar with the Redondo Beach area when my work with Edison involved the power plant. I still remember the deli north of the plant where we'd go for lunch; during the summer it was like being in a "beach party" movie set. As I recall, the last Santa Fe customer in the area was a lumber yard behind the generating station. If the light-rail line ever does get built, I can see weekend traffic from beachgoers who don't want to deal with traffic and parking. How about some combines with surfboard racks?
|
|
|
|
Post by usmc1401 on Dec 15, 2013 14:43:32 GMT -8
In 1982 83 a plan was started by the City of Manhattan Beach to use the ATSF ROW for a diesel powered light rail line. This was known as the Manhattan Beach Trolley. The city wanted it to run from downtown Manhattan to the then new Manhattan shopping mall at Rosecrans and Sepulveda. That short of line would not have worked but it was determined that Redondo Beach to El Segundo would work. The city was against this plan because other people would travel thru the town. The Green line is a result of this plan. The last steady customer's were Metlox pottery in Manhattan and Lerned lumber in Hermosa. Metlox shut down and a Hotel is in it's place. The lumber yard opened a new yard in El Segundo served by the Santa Fe and the Southern Pacific. This yard has been closed for about five years. The last train to the end of the line in Redondo was for a TV show in December of 1981. The deli in Hermosa is Micky's on Hermosa Ave at 2nd st. still a beach hangout.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Dec 15, 2013 22:02:34 GMT -8
In 1982 83 a plan was started by the City of Manhattan Beach to use the ATSF ROW for a diesel powered light rail line. This was known as the Manhattan Beach Trolley. The city wanted it to run from downtown Manhattan to the then new Manhattan shopping mall at Rosecrans and Sepulveda. That short of line would not have worked but it was determined that Redondo Beach to El Segundo would work. The city was against this plan because other people would travel thru the town. The Green line is a result of this plan. The last steady customer's were Metlox pottery in Manhattan and Lerned lumber in Hermosa. Metlox shut down and a Hotel is in it's place. The lumber yard opened a new yard in El Segundo served by the Santa Fe and the Southern Pacific. This yard has been closed for about five years. Th last train to the end of the line in Redondo was for a TV show in December of 1981. Great info, thanks. It's ironic that common sense dictates that these lines should be built but they don't get built for stupid reasons. This particular line would indeed have very good ridership given that it parallels the heavily traveled Sepulveda Blvd corridor and has good destinations. |
|
|
|
Post by coasterfreak18 on Apr 21, 2015 0:15:19 GMT -8
I think this is a great idea! Let's make it happen
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 21, 2015 12:22:37 GMT -8
"The Point" is opening in on July 30, 2015. www.thepointsb.com/While they built their driveway at Village Drive and part of their parking light over the old right-of-way, I don't think it would preclude an aerial Sepulveda (PCH) / Rosecreans Station. Note that the station-bridge span is usually about 485-ft-long and the ramps are 600-to-700-ft-long. The driveway would have to go under the station bridge, which is not different than the aerial stations like La Brea / Exposition where the street goes under the bridge. Looking south:  Looking east:  Looking north:  |
|
|
|
Post by johanragle on Apr 21, 2015 13:56:17 GMT -8
Does that mean the old cut under Sepulveda would need to be filled in? I don't see any other way around it; an aerial Rosecrans/Sepulveda station would have to go over both streets before dropping back into the old right of way.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 21, 2015 14:54:04 GMT -8
Does that mean the old cut under Sepulveda would need to be filled in? I don't see any other way around it; an aerial Rosecrans/Sepulveda station would have to go over both streets before dropping back into the old right of way. Luckily, no, the existing tunnel would be used. There is more than 800 ft of length in the Fry's parking lot, and you need only 600 - 700 ft to ramp down to at-grade level (parking-lot level) from the station bridge. The 485-ft-long station bridge would be diagonally over Rosecreans Ave. The tracks would come down to at-grade level just east of the tunnel and continue at-grade in the right-of-way (which is below the grade of Sepulveda Blvd) from thereon. Therefore, the aerial station should fit very easily with the existing tunnel. Most of the parking lots would be retained, too. Also, I am guessing that the tunnel is for double-stacked trains; so, the vertical clearance is much higher than the 18 ft needed for light-rail. This means that the trains probably don't even need to come to fully at-grade level and you need even a shorter ramp than a 600-to-700-ft-long one. So, the configuration here should work very well. |
|
|
|
Post by usmc1401 on Apr 21, 2015 15:29:05 GMT -8
The Highway 1 Sepulveda bridge over the former ATSF Redondo district is high enough for a double stack train. But no double stack ever traveled the line it is wide enough for two tracks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 21, 2015 16:09:34 GMT -8
The Highway 1 Sepulveda bridge over the former ATSF Redondo district is high enough for a double stack train. But no double stack ever traveled the line it is wide enough for two tracks. The right-of-way is 100-ft-wide everywhere, which is very nice. I think the tunnel is wide enough. You need about 30 ft for two tracks, perhaps a little wider if the tracks haven't fully come together after passing the center station platform. Nevertheless, Palms Overhead tunnel under I-10 Freeway for Expo Line Phase 2 is only 25-ft-wide. |
|
