|
Post by spokker on Jun 1, 2011 8:19:54 GMT -8
Now, Im no engineer, but it seems like a roller coaster is a more complicated piece of train infrastructure than a light rail line. It isn't. You take prefabricated pieces and fit them together on site. You aren't embedding the track into the urban landscape. That particular roller coaster you linked to can actually be built pretty much anywhere. Just follow the assembly instructions. In operation, a chain carries the roller coaster car up an incline before allowing gravity to do the rest. The process is highly automated and the minimum wage workers simply check seat restraints (by pulling up on them) and then press a button when all is clear. If there is a problem with the track, the attraction will stop itself (the track tube contains pressurized air, if that pressure is lost due to damage, the brakes engage automatically). There are no pedestrians, drivers or cyclists crossing the track at any time. Roller coaster platforms have gates and there are several employees on duty watching guests as they enter and exit the roller coaster train. The Expo Line is not automated. Someone actually has to accelerate, decelerate, brake and stop. They must be aware of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists. They must learn the route, including speed limits, curves and when to slow down for the next stop. The risk of failure is also greater on light rail. A roller coaster breaks down. So what? It's a theme park. Go ride something else. What are you doing there anyway? Go to work and get a life. The real train breaks down. People are stranded. People are late for work. People cannot go about their daily business. You break the public's trust and they won't ride your train anymore. By the time a light rail line opens, you want it to be a well-oiled machine. By the time it opens, you don't want to still be in the testing phase (theme park rides often open DURING the testing phase! They are called soft opens).
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 1, 2011 9:32:29 GMT -8
Well, what is actually happening at Wardlow is that the Blue Line train operator is requesting the gates to be closed by pushing a button on the console once the train is berthed at the station. True, but as a form of signal preemption (this one manually triggered), it is nearly equivalent to the automated version.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 1, 2011 9:39:08 GMT -8
Those examples were withOUT signal preemption. Yeah, that was a bad comparison. This is what I get for posting on TTC after my bedtime. So back to the example: no preemption, 40/40 signals with 30-second boarding. To make a good comparison between near- and far-side boarding, you have to take better set of cases than just one or two samples. Let's look at far-side boarding. Define "lucky" as arriving at the crossing when the light is green. Because the red-green cycle is even, there is a 50/50 chance that the train will be "lucky". When it is, the total wait will be 30 seconds. When it is not lucky, the total wait will range evenly between 30 seconds and 70 seconds (including 40 at the light, worst case). So we have (30 + (30 + 70)/2) /2 = 40 seconds average wait. Now let's look at near-side boarding. We now define "lucky" as arriving at the crossing at a point in time such that 30 seconds later, the light is green. Because the red-green cycle is even, there is still a 50/50 chance that the train will be lucky. Notice that everything else is the same. So again, we have (30 + (30 + 70)/2) /2 = 40 seconds average wait. Exactly the same. And in both scenarios, the minimum wait is 30 seconds, and the maximum wait is 70 seconds. So really, we were both wrong: in terms of wait time, neither boarding style is superior to the other. With signal preemption, the average is improved to 30 seconds (instead of 40). Even more importantly, the worst case is improved to 30 seconds (instead of 70).
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jun 1, 2011 12:42:01 GMT -8
Right, so we agree that signal preemption should always happen because it's in the riders best interest.
And I guess platform location doesnt matter as much, although far side can be 100% automated, while near side requires a trigger, which isnt a problem, as long as the driver is doing his job.
spokker, I feel that the risk of failure on a roller coaster is bigger. Being stuck upside down can be deadly.
You also said: "The Expo Line is not automated. Someone actually has to accelerate, decelerate, brake and stop. They must be aware of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists. They must learn the route, including speed limits, curves and when to slow down for the next stop."
Correct. But expo is not the first rail line. The drivers have been driving these very same trains for years. It shouldnt take more than 3 runs to learn the track.
We let amateur drivers venture onto brand new routes every single day, with no dry-runs.
Or, you know...
Our road system is not automated. Someone actually has to accelerate, decelerate, brake and stop. They must be aware of pedestrians, drivers and cyclists. They must learn the route, including speed limits, curves and when to slow down for the next stop.
But we let 16 years old have their run of the road, but professional, highly experienced metro drivers? Takes them months of training? Makes no sense.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 1, 2011 16:07:48 GMT -8
Right, so we agree that signal preemption should always happen because it's in the riders best interest. We've never disagreed on this point. Signal preemption is key. And gates at Western Avenue would be great as well.
|
|
|
Post by carter on Jun 1, 2011 16:27:26 GMT -8
Right, so we agree that signal preemption should always happen because it's in the riders best interest. We've never disagreed on this point. Signal preemption is key. And gates at Western Avenue would be great as well. Quick question: Assuming a train got signal preemption at every intersection, 100% of the time, so that it was only ever stopping at station stops: Is there an added time saver from having gates in this situation, i.e. do they allow trains to travel faster through intersections?
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 1, 2011 17:02:15 GMT -8
We've never disagreed on this point. Signal preemption is key. And gates at Western Avenue would be great as well. Quick question: Assuming a train got signal preemption at every intersection, 100% of the time, so that it was only ever stopping at station stops: Is there an added time saver from having gates in this situation, i.e. do they allow trains to travel faster through intersections? In general, CPUC allows higher speeds at crossings that are gated. However, I don't know the exact rules, I'm sure Gokhan or Darrell could answer this better than me.
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Jun 1, 2011 17:40:34 GMT -8
I went by USC today to see if there was any testing going on. Looks like the Siemens train hasn't gone anywhere lately.
|
|
|
Post by tobias087 on Jun 1, 2011 19:57:40 GMT -8
My understanding from the testing schedule is that it is happening 5 pm to 10 pm weekdays this week. Yesterday I drove by the ROW, and saw the 3-car train out for testing. It was moving slowly eastbound on the westbound track, and I caught it for about 10 minutes near Grammercy Place. There were crossing guards with stop signs at the crossings, and the train would wait several signal cycles at each crossing before moving through. Perhaps they are in the process of testing whether every part of the track can be used in both directions?
|
|
|
Post by jdrcrasher on Jun 1, 2011 22:36:23 GMT -8
Google Earth has updated it's satellite imagery, with LA images dating March 8 this year. Among other noticeable changes in the region is substantial progress on the Expo Line.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 7, 2011 13:18:40 GMT -8
Here is the latest project update, from the June 2 meeting. Some highlights (items relevant to Phase I): - FFP reports 2-month delay to June 15 substantial completion date (which we already knew about).
- "FFP, Expo and Metro are still working towards the budgeted November ROD".
- Items expected to be completed around year-end: Storage facility (which Metro may complete), Farmdale and Culver City stations.
- Forecast-at-completion is now $945.6 million, $13.6 million over the current budget, and nearly $3 million higher than previous month.
|
|
|
Post by rajacobs on Jun 7, 2011 21:25:07 GMT -8
Thanks fo the update, metrocenter.
I'd love to know when rail into the Culver station and catenary will be installed.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jun 7, 2011 23:49:35 GMT -8
I'd love to know when rail into the Culver station and catenary will be installed. The contract to Balfour Beatty Rail was recently awarded and it should begin at any time.
|
|
|
Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jun 8, 2011 9:33:36 GMT -8
From yesterday. A rare moment!
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jun 8, 2011 21:29:44 GMT -8
Its mid June 2011 and we're not riding the train.
Can future contracts include stipulations that 12 month+ delays result in the contractor big wigs being publicly shamed in stocks in a downtown plaza? A local farm can provide the tomatoes.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on Jun 8, 2011 21:55:43 GMT -8
Its mid June 2011 and we're not riding the train. Can future contracts include stipulations that 12 month+ delays result in the contractor big wigs being publicly shamed in stocks in a downtown plaza? A local farm can provide the tomatoes. When the contractor started work in 2006...did they know that LADWP would take a near 2 years to get La Brea/Expo and La Cienega/Expo ready for bridge construction? Did the contractor have the ability to close the loop on the Farmdale crossing contraversey (it was neighborhood v. PUC/Expo Construction Authority...not contractor). Did the contractor know that initally Venice/Robertson was going to pushed into Phase 1 and the interim station at National/Jefferson was not going to happen? It's not just the contractor's fault...but we were given a WAY TOO optimistic timeline in 2006 from the Expo Construction Authority that nobody forgets. We were told 2009 to expect trains to National/Jefferson. That's why I shudder when people tell me that trains will be rolling into Santa Monica by 2015. I'm sticking to 2016 and only telling people that. If
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jun 8, 2011 22:32:19 GMT -8
This project has changed over and over and over again. New stations, new safety features, and on and on. Scope creep at it's finest.
BTW, I do think the resulting rail line is going to be much better than it was originally intended to be. But now we're paying for it, with an ever-increasing budget and a revenue service date that always seems to be just out of reach.
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Jun 8, 2011 23:26:51 GMT -8
Even the Gold Line Foothill Extension, where there seems to be little or no problem with grade crossings or NIMBY's, has run into some snags. Maybe I've quoted my colleague from back in the 90's before, but here goes: "If it ain't one thing, it's another. If it ain't the Devil, it's the Devil's Brother!"
But it is good to see the "drag race" between the two trains. That's something that isn't very likely to happen in regular service! Reminds me of stories from a hundred and some years ago where two rival streetcar companies had parallel tracks. Late at night, one car's crew would wait until the other line's car reached the start of the parallel section. A challenge would be made, bets might even be placed, and off they'd go, often with the lights turned off so every kilowatt would go into the motors. The motorman had to be careful not to power up too fast, or the circuit breaker on the car would "pop" and he'd lose the race by default.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jun 9, 2011 11:47:58 GMT -8
No worry guys, the plazas downtown are large enough to put the expo authority people in the stocks too.
|
|
|
Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jun 13, 2011 21:14:49 GMT -8
Some testing videos posted today...
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Jun 16, 2011 16:05:07 GMT -8
So Phase 1 is supposed to be substantially complete as of yesterday. I am going to say that probably isn't the case??? It will be nice to start hearing about happenings on Phase II instead of Phase I. When I was in Palms the other day, it appeared they were doing quite a bit of grading on the ROW next to National (or some type of work as I was looking for where I was going more than the Expo work).
|
|
|
Post by roadtrainer on Jun 18, 2011 9:57:15 GMT -8
So Phase 1 is supposed to be substantially complete as of yesterday. i remember when you guys would do a street crossing by street crossing count down. So i ask you, can somebody do a station by station count down? Why not say or place your bets on which station is done first? I think that La Brea might be done first but the insiders(not Damien,ha,ha private joke) know which is completed already. So start your engines! Get you binoculars ready and start reporting. Is that OK? and please make it fun!
|
|
|
Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jun 19, 2011 5:15:48 GMT -8
Testing over Flower/110 bridge
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jun 24, 2011 10:43:04 GMT -8
I took a look at the progress after more than a month and I was surprised that there was virtually no progress west of Crenshaw. While east of Crenshaw along Exposition is mostly finished, west of Crenshaw is far from finished, aerial-station plazas still looking like dumps.
The contractor was supposed to finish everything on June 15 and then they used train-testing issues as an excuse to delay the project to late August. From what I see, the reason for the delay is far more than train testing. There are very few construction workers working along the line and there is still a lot to do.
This is their usual ploy of delaying the project to get more money from Expo by putting the blame on Expo. They have already succeeded multiple times and managed to get tens of millions of dollars out of Expo. End result? A project that seemingly will never be finished and tens of millions of dollars of taxpayer money wasted and given to an awful, awful contractor.
Venice/Robertson Station also seems to have started lagging now. There is still no track and OCS installation there.
I did see that they've started paving the Class 1 section of the bike and pedestrian path.
The landscaping east of Crenshaw is starting to look very good though but there is still little landscaping west of Crenshaw.
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Jun 24, 2011 20:12:49 GMT -8
The landscaping east of Crenshaw is starting to look very good though but there is still little landscaping west of Crenshaw. The landscaping along Flower south of Washington is looking really nice with the variety of small plants below the trees in the median. But I also noticed ginkgo trees finally being planted west of the Farmdale station, and supporting sprinkler piping being installed.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 25, 2011 9:00:32 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jun 25, 2011 11:44:18 GMT -8
Five years after groundbreaking, there is still a lot of digging. This is at Hauser Blvd yesterday: I am suspecting new problems between Expo and the contractor. Work west of Crenshaw seems to have mostly stopped, with still a lot of work to do. Train testing west of Arlington also doesn't seem to be taking place. We will find out more about the never-ending Phase 1 woes at this week's board meeting. I am suspecting that the contractor is demanding millions of dollars of more money -- again.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 25, 2011 12:12:21 GMT -8
Maybe train testing isn't taking place west of Arlington because they recently started focusing on Flower as that portion became ready for testing? And I drove Phase 1 on Tuesday and saw plenty of workers west of Crenshaw. Not as many as in the past, but it's never really been balanced along the entire line. For awhile it seemed like Flower was being ignored and all of the work was west of Crenshaw. Maybe they are balancing it out? Or maybe, perhaps more likely, you are correct and there is some issue on the western part and the contractor is negotiating a change order before proceeding. If that's the case we're looking at a March 2012 opening.
|
|
|
Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jun 26, 2011 6:52:46 GMT -8
Nice catch (probably the first) of a train using the Washington/Flower switch:
Compare with building this just 10 months ago:
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jun 26, 2011 15:46:00 GMT -8
That's the first time I saw a mighty Nippon - Sharyo on the Expo Line. Is ExpoLineFan also on this board? Good job.
|
|