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Post by roadtrainer on Nov 8, 2011 20:56:32 GMT -8
[quote James Fujita said:I am not a fan of weasel words[/b], [/quote] When i read the line ''Weasel Words" i busted out laughing! Fujita you made my day! And TO YOUR HORROR THAT THE CPUC TOLD EXPO to add ventilation and the tunnel is deemed a subway is a laff riot, So I'll continue to call the tunnel the USC Subway and watch you react in still more horrors! Sincerely The Roadtrainer P.S. I'm still a member of the Ronald Reagan Good old Boy Republican Party
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Post by Justin Walker on Nov 8, 2011 21:53:03 GMT -8
In oakland, Amtrak runs on the street....making it a streetcar. Indeed in stockton, people board the amtrak train in the middle of an intersection. Metro rail and metrolink may not be the same, but what if you took the red line and extended it 42 miles? Again, you could take metrolink and run it like a streetcar in downtown LA, like the chicago system does in their suburbs. You can run PCCs in a grade separated subway system. You can take a blue line train and run it on the sunset limited route (itll cost a trillion or so to electrify it though) Be careful not to confuse modes with alignment characteristics (see my post above). Specifically, Amtrak trains running down the middle of the street in Oakland do not qualify as a streetcar. The mode is still intercity rail; only the alignment characteristic changes along the corridor (in this case, to dedicated-lane street running).
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Post by carter on Nov 9, 2011 7:47:42 GMT -8
This is an interesting discussion, but maybe it should have its own thread?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 9, 2011 7:49:29 GMT -8
Folks - do you mind moving your replies into the new thread Gokhan created "Definitions of forms of rail transit"? This discussion regarding light rail, subway, Metro, etc... have seriously gotten way off topic about the Exposition Light Rail Line Project Development. Even though it started with the Expo Line "subway" portion, let's get back to true Expo Phase I related developments in this thread. Gokhan's already created another subject for y'all to continue your arguments/briefs there.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 9, 2011 10:22:52 GMT -8
P.S. I'm still a member of the Ronald Reagan Good old Boy Republican Party I agree with most of what you've said. But how does your party affiliation relate to this discussion at all? I ask this as a proud American liberal in the Roosevelt-Kennedy-Clinton Democratic Party.
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 9, 2011 10:33:59 GMT -8
P.S. I'm still a member of the Ronald Reagan Good old Boy Republican Party I agree with most of what you've said. But how does your party affiliation relate to this discussion at all? I ask this as a proud American liberal in the Roosevelt-Kennedy-Clinton Democratic Party. The answer is obvious. Whatever his intentions may have been when he started this discussion (whether joking or truly serious), tossing his political affiliation in at this point indicates to me that now he's just trolling.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 9, 2011 12:57:51 GMT -8
All quiet on the Expo Line front..............is that good news? Do you think pre-revenue is around the corner? Any word on test trains appearing in the Culver City segment soon?
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 9, 2011 14:07:26 GMT -8
All quiet on the Expo Line front..............is that good news? Do you think pre-revenue is around the corner? Any word on test trains appearing in the Culver City segment soon? There's an old mathematical paradox which asks: if you need to travel a certain distance, and every time you move, you cover half the remaining distance, how long will it take you to reach the end? (the answer is: you never reach the end) sometimes it seems like that equation is governing the Expo Line's construction schedule. "All quiet" is a good thing for NIMBYs, not good at this stage of the game.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 9, 2011 14:10:00 GMT -8
Thanks for ceasing the discussion on the rail-line definitions on this thread. You can continue it on the new thread dedicated for it: Definitions of forms of rail transitI drove by the Expo Line today. There was a single test car crossing Western westbound. There was still a Balfour Beatty Rail pick-up and a Metro pick-up parked at Buckingham by the train-control-point cabinet. It looks like they didn't fully solve whatever the problem is there. Culver City work seems to be progressing very slowly and I don't think it will get to open anytime before March. TPSS still doesn't seem to be hooked up. They were in the process of installing the new train-control-point cabinet there. Until this is hooked up and the TPSS is hooked up, train tests cannot start in Culver City. Station area seems to require a lot of work as well. They were cleaning some tagging on a column near Wesley St. Elsewhere, they've just installed the benches at the La Cienega Station plaza and people are already sitting on them. It's strange that the contractor still hasn't be able to reach the substantial completion (to La Cienega). Someone had made a shrine of flowers on the south side of the right-of-way east of Arlington. I don't know what is that about.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 9, 2011 15:02:09 GMT -8
All quiet on the Expo Line front..............is that good news? Do you think pre-revenue is around the corner? Any word on test trains appearing in the Culver City segment soon? There's an old mathematical paradox which asks: if you need to travel a certain distance, and every time you move, you cover half the remaining distance, how long will it take you to reach the end? (the answer is: you never reach the end) sometimes it seems like that equation is governing the Expo Line's construction schedule. This should give us some hope. Any first-year calculus student will recognize Zeno's arrow paradox, which describes an infinite series which, in this case, is convergent and thus has a finite sum. As for the Expo Line, only time will tell what that finite sum eventually will be.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 9, 2011 15:23:17 GMT -8
There's an old mathematical paradox which asks: if you need to travel a certain distance, and every time you move, you cover half the remaining distance, how long will it take you to reach the end? (the answer is: you never reach the end) sometimes it seems like that equation is governing the Expo Line's construction schedule. This should give us some hope. Any first-year calculus student will recognize Zeno's arrow paradox, which describes an infinite series which, in this case, is convergent and thus has a finite sum. As for the Expo Line, only time will tell what that finite sum eventually will be. That's a good analogy. It feels like they are slowing down in that fashion all the time and they will never get to finish it in a finite time.
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 9, 2011 16:14:34 GMT -8
All quiet on the Expo Line front..............is that good news? Do you think pre-revenue is around the corner? Any word on test trains appearing in the Culver City segment soon? I've heard that pre-revenue testing will begin on Monday. Oh wait, thats just something thats been repeated every weekend on this forum since August. The 2011 opening window closes very soon.
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Post by masonite on Nov 9, 2011 16:29:50 GMT -8
All quiet on the Expo Line front..............is that good news? Do you think pre-revenue is around the corner? Any word on test trains appearing in the Culver City segment soon? I've heard that pre-revenue testing will begin on Monday. Oh wait, thats just something thats been repeated every weekend on this forum since August. The 2011 opening window closes very soon. Yeah, I think we can write off a 2011 opening. The question now becomes can it open in January.
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Post by roadtrainer on Nov 9, 2011 21:49:48 GMT -8
I agree with most of what you've said. he's just trolling. I wrote this to bring to your attention that one time we had a heated political discussion but come to peaceful agreement, do you remember? One more thing about the CPUC. If the CPUC doesn't agree to sometihing being built it won't get built. So when i read that over and over the Subway was being called a trench when it was a subway i had to say something. And it brought out a lot of good opinions and heated discussions.. and the only trolls I know are the ugly sister-in-laws of Home Simpson, that is Thelma and Patty.
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Post by mattapoisett on Nov 9, 2011 22:17:32 GMT -8
Drove By LATTC at 4:20pm and there were no trains any where to be seen all the way to the Car pool ramp to the 110 South either out testing or when back to Long beach will check out tomorrow morning have to be near crenshaw blvd I had a lovely lunch today at Normandy Bakery Cafe around 2pm and during the 1/2 hour I was sitting on their patio, 5-6 trains passed by from either direction. When my wife and I passed La Cienega at 8:30 pm, there seemed to be 4 Trains on the Westbound side and some on the eastbound side but I could not confirm.
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Post by mattapoisett on Nov 10, 2011 7:22:50 GMT -8
Sounds Like they Were Out with All trains And Large Scale Testing and Operator Training Wondering if that was were they were parking the trains for the night were the Lights On??? The lights were on.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 10, 2011 15:28:58 GMT -8
But No Operator Training today or tomorrow and starting Monday sounds like good news Until I see the official release from Metro's The Source, then I will celebrate. We've had many false starts about "pre-revenue operations beginning" starting Gokhan's breaking news about "pre pre-revenue starting" a month ago (which had to addressed by the Expo page on Facebook as incorrect). I agree with jamesinclair, when earlier he says we've heard plenty of these rumors/news on this forum. Let's wait for the Source to report the official word. Then, let's celebrate!
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Post by macross287 on Nov 11, 2011 0:48:25 GMT -8
I was reading the minutes of the Westside service council and came across some interesting info on the Expo Update. According to Tom Jasmin, the Rail Division Transporation Manager Expo operator/supervisor and familiarization began around October 24th. It is supposed to last about a month Pre-Revenue operations scheduled sometime in November. Most likely after the line familiarization Opening to La Cienega sometime after January 1st 2012 Opening to Culver City March or April 2012 www.metro.net/board/Items/2011/11_November/20111109OtherSectorWESItem2.pdfThe relevant information can be found on page 8
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2011 9:04:15 GMT -8
Ah, this is the most trustable and definite information on the Expo Line opening ever. It sounds like La Cienega is opening in early-to-mid-January and Culver City is opening in March - April!
UPDATE on Exposition Rail, Tom Jasmin, Rail Division Transportation Manager October 12, 2011
I’ve been testing day and night to give the council an update on the Expo Line. We finished all required testing last Friday. This week and next we are doing some retesting and the week of the 24th we will start operator/supervisor familiarization. This should take about one month. Then in November we will start pre-revenue. Pre-revenue is actually same as revenue but not picking up passengers. The opening of the line is yet to be determined but it will be after the first of the year. I will work with Jon and Suzanne to schedule a tour on the line once we can take passengers. Right now one of the tests we are doing is the ventilation test, it failed the first time, and now we are retesting. Once that has been completed and approved, then we take the public through the tunnel. We had quite a bit of software changes on a few of the areas I want to retest them again to make sure version 8 does not impact version 1 and cause some anomaly. By the end of next week all testing and retesting then we start the familiarization.
Representative Rosten: When was the Expo line supposed to open?
Tom Jasmin: Sometime last summer. We had problems with some subcontractors who quit and others were let go, and it is primarily in the train control which is a safety aspect on the line. The new people came on board in March of this year and they said it would take 6 months to test and we are right on target.
Representative Capone-Newton: Culver City?
Tom Jasmin: This will be for LaCienega only. One additional station, Robertson will be in March or April.
Representative Petty: Can you describe the pre-revenue phase, is this an everyday type of test?
Tom Jasmin: Yes, it is the same hours you would run in revenue service. It is getting the communities aware of the trains schedule and to finalize the actual schedules. We start at 12 hours per day and eventually running 21 hours. Right now we know we can make it to Pico a little under 30 minutes. You can get on at La Cienega station and be downtown in less than a half-hour. The parking structure was completed this last week. The CCTV cameras will be installed prior to opening.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 11, 2011 9:56:10 GMT -8
[ Tom Jasmin: Yes, it is the same hours you would run in revenue service. It is getting the communities aware of the trains schedule and to finalize the actual schedules. We start at 12 hours per day and eventually running 21 hours. Right now we know we can make it to Pico a little under 30 minutes. You can get on at La Cienega station and be downtown in less than a half-hour. The parking structure was completed this last week. The CCTV cameras will be installed prior to opening. Anybody concerned that it takes 30 min from La Cienega/Expo station to Pico station? Does that mean it will be 35 min from Culver City station to 7th street? I thought it was said somewhere the time would be Culver City station to 7th street in 30 minutes. I was hoping for faster speeds.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2011 10:00:32 GMT -8
[ Tom Jasmin: Yes, it is the same hours you would run in revenue service. It is getting the communities aware of the trains schedule and to finalize the actual schedules. We start at 12 hours per day and eventually running 21 hours. Right now we know we can make it to Pico a little under 30 minutes. You can get on at La Cienega station and be downtown in less than a half-hour. The parking structure was completed this last week. The CCTV cameras will be installed prior to opening. Anybody concerned that it takes 30 min from La Cienega/Expo station to Pico station? Does that mean it will be 35 min from Culver City station to 7th street? I thought it was said somewhere the time would be Culver City station to 7th street in 30 minutes. I was hoping for faster speeds. Yes, that's too long. If it takes 35 minutes to Culver City, it would take an hour to Santa Monica. This is slower than a bus and unacceptable. They need to speed it up.
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Post by bzcat on Nov 11, 2011 10:43:20 GMT -8
I think we need to hold these guys to their January opening date. No more delays!
I'm sure the service time estimate will improve once they start pre-revenue service and run a real schedule.
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Post by carter on Nov 11, 2011 11:16:31 GMT -8
I was talking to Darrell yesterday and he said that he heard that 30 minutes is a worst case scenario based on scenarios that should theoretically never happen.
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 11, 2011 11:40:24 GMT -8
I was talking to Darrell yesterday and he said that he heard that 30 minutes is a worst case scenario based on scenarios that should theoretically never happen. Do those scenarios include 15 years from now, when deferred maintenance results in speed restrictions?
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Nov 11, 2011 11:54:09 GMT -8
I was talking to Darrell yesterday and he said that he heard that 30 minutes is a worst case scenario based on scenarios that should theoretically never happen. Do those scenarios include 15 years from now, when deferred maintenance results in speed restrictions? I believe you meant planned or preventative maintenance; deferred means not doing maintenance to save costs.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2011 12:11:18 GMT -8
I couldn't believe that they were still trying to repair one of the crossing gates at Hauser Boulevard today. They've been trying the repair it since the rain last month. How long does it take to repair one crossing gate?
Farmdale slowed this line a lot. They spent $30 million on that at-grade crossing while a bridge would have cost $10 million.
One thing we're overlooking is that for the line to open, not only testing should be finished but the construction should be completed. It's very frustrating to see that the construction is still going on.
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Post by darrell on Nov 11, 2011 12:12:57 GMT -8
Here is a summary of my Expo timetable estimates, based on existing Metro timetables. The base case is one mile on private right-of-way with stations a mile apart takes 2 minutes; add more for traffic signal delays and slow curves. I'd like to know current station-station timings of test trains!
Flower & 7th Flower & Pico -- 2 minutes Flower & 23rd -- 3-4 Flower & Jefferson -- 2-3 Expo & Vermont -- 3-4 Expo & Western -- 3-4 Expo & Crenshaw -- 3-4 Expo & La Brea -- 3 Jefferson & La Cienega -- 2 Venice & Robertson -- 2 Phase 1 subtotal -- 23-28
National & Palms -- 2 Expo & Westwood -- 3 Expo & Sepulveda -- 1 Expo & Bundy -- 2 Olympic & 26th -- 2 Colorado & 17th -- 2-3 Colorado & 4th -- 3-4 Phase 2 subtotal -- 15-17 Total -- 38-45
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 11, 2011 12:43:15 GMT -8
Do those scenarios include 15 years from now, when deferred maintenance results in speed restrictions? Huh? Didn't the Blue Line improve from 59 minutes to 54 minutes end-to-end now after 20 years of service? And the Gold Line Pasadena segment increased from 35 minutes to 30 minutes? Why would you consider a train would get slower as time goes by? The advantage of rail is that times stay consistent throughout.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 11, 2011 13:25:23 GMT -8
Ah, this is the most trustable and definite information on the Expo Line opening ever. It sounds like La Cienega is opening in early-to-mid-January and Culver City is opening in March - April!UPDATE on Exposition Rail, Tom Jasmin, Rail Division Transportation Manager October 12, 2011 Given the constantly-shifting timelines, and all the promised/missed delivery dates that have characterized this project so far, I put little faith in any projections made by anybody related to this project. I have even less faith when such statements are a month old (like this one). For all the years we've been following this project, direct observations of people on this forum (and contacts with workers on the ground) have been far better indicators of progress than anything claimed by the managers, spokespersons or politicians. All we can truly rely on are concrete milestones. When construction is finished, it will be finished. When revenue testing begins, it will have begun. Only when we have a scheduled date of opening festivities will I take these people at their word. And even then, it will be with a grain of salt.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 11, 2011 13:50:11 GMT -8
Agreed about the inherent uncertainty, and the fact that we can never be certain until the day it opens. But, according to Dwight, who keeps talking to Metro people out in the field everyday, the prerevenue operation is imminent -- it will probably start in about two weeks or less. Once the prerevenue operation starts, then the opening becomes imminent.
But if things are delayed again, I wouldn't be surprised either (inherent uncertainty).
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