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Post by masonite on Jan 30, 2012 12:11:02 GMT -8
BREAKING NEWS: Expo Line Phase 1 prerevenue operation did not start todayDue to unknown problems, today the prerevenue operation couldn't start as it was announced by the Metro CEO at the board meeting. My guess is that the junction is still not working as expected or they aren't comfortable with it. The junction was still running in the manual mode and some operators didn't know how to properly interpret the signals, requiring more operator training. There wasn't a single test train today. Until there is an official news release on the Metro Web site, nothing is certain with regard to the prerevenue operation. It looks like there is a great information disconnect out there -- not only public is not being properly informed about the status of the project but the Metro and Expo staff aren't informed about it either. Expo Authority did say in their status update presentation now on their website that prerevenue service was expected to start today and that the Blue Line Junction issue had been resolved. However, who knows at this point. They also state that substantial completion is still not attained and they expect that in Feb., but every presentation says they expect to be done by the next month. Phase II's presentation had few real updates. Just says design is at 60% - same as prior months.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 12:24:18 GMT -8
BREAKING NEWS: Expo Line Phase 1 prerevenue operation did not start todayDue to unknown problems, today the prerevenue operation couldn't start as it was announced by the Metro CEO at the board meeting. My guess is that the junction is still not working as expected or they aren't comfortable with it. The junction was still running in the manual mode and some operators didn't know how to properly interpret the signals, requiring more operator training. There wasn't a single test train today. Until there is an official news release on the Metro Web site, nothing is certain with regard to the prerevenue operation. It looks like there is a great information disconnect out there -- not only public is not being properly informed about the status of the project but the Metro and Expo staff aren't informed about it either. Expo Authority did say in their status update presentation now on their website that prerevenue service was expected to start today and that the Blue Line Junction issue had been resolved. However, who knows at this point. They also state that substantial completion is still not attained and they expect that in Feb., but every presentation says they expect to be done by the next month. Phase II's presentation had few real updates. Just says design is at 60% - same as prior months. It really doesn't make sense that they can start the prerevenue operation before the substantial completion takes place. What is not completed is clearly the junction and the signals along the line. How can they start the prerevenue if the junction and signaling system along the line is not properly working? I really think that Metro and Expo administration has no idea what is going on. It looks like everyone is hiding information from each other not to make themselves look bad. By the way, the Culver City work is falling far behind and there is a ton of work left to be done there. I don't expect the Culver City Station to open before Christmas 2012.
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Post by simonla on Jan 30, 2012 12:58:00 GMT -8
What a friggin' mess. You'd think we were building a rocket ship to Neptune. I think Metro is hoping their Orange Line press event today will distract folks from this latest embarrassment. Gokhan--Agreed. Culver City is a lost cause until likely the fall. Who knows why they have not paved the parking lot?
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dane
Junior Member
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Post by dane on Jan 30, 2012 14:49:02 GMT -8
At 2:45 pm today I witnessed from my office window overlooking S. Flower a 3-car P2000 consist cross northbound over the Washington junction, pull briefly into Pico station, pause about 5 seconds with no boarding, and continue on to 7th/Metro...
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 14:59:21 GMT -8
At 2:45 pm today I witnessed from my office window overlooking S. Flower a 3-car P2000 consist cross northbound over the Washington junction, pull briefly into Pico station, pause about 5 seconds with no boarding, and continue on to 7th/Metro... Perhaps more tests of the junction are taking place before the prerevenue operation can start? Also, a friend of mine told me that they were running a Siemens train with passengers on the Blue Line this morning.
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dane
Junior Member
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Post by dane on Jan 30, 2012 16:13:08 GMT -8
Right now (3:10 pm) there are about 3 idle trainsets with lights on bunched together on both the N/B and S/B tracks at Jefferson station...
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 16:16:58 GMT -8
Right now (3:10 pm) there are about 3 idle trainsets with lights on bunched together on both the N/B and S/B tracks at the north USC trench portal... Perhaps they are getting ready to start it tonight. I will drive by tomorrow morning and report.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 16:32:57 GMT -8
Right now (3:10 pm) there are about 3 idle trainsets with lights on bunched together on both the N/B and S/B tracks at the north USC trench portal... Perhaps they are getting ready to start it tonight. I will drive by tomorrow morning and report. I just talked to Bart and he is saying that the prerevenue operation will eventually run only after 11 pm and they will gradually move it into the day. I guess it depends on how you define the prerevenue operation. I've always thought that it was trains running regular schedule but without passengers.
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dane
Junior Member
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Post by dane on Jan 30, 2012 16:39:52 GMT -8
The trains at Jefferson just dispersed (4:30 pm). A 2-car P2000 consist pulled into 23rd station on the S/B track, parked, and the operators exited. The other trainsets went south through the trench...
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Post by bzcat on Jan 30, 2012 17:45:15 GMT -8
Perhaps they are getting ready to start it tonight. I will drive by tomorrow morning and report. I just talked to Bart and he is saying that the prerevenue operation will eventually run only after 11 pm and they will gradually move it into the day. I guess it depends on how you define the prerevenue operation. I've always thought that it was trains running regular schedule but without passengers. I guess they start with just 1 hour of pre-revenue operation (11pm to 12 am) and then incrementally expand until they are running from 4 am to 1 am? Again, it would have been nice if Metro actually explain what their plan is for the pre-revenue operation.
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Post by jamesinclair on Jan 30, 2012 19:14:18 GMT -8
I think the plan is to open phase 1 and phase 2 at the same time
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 21:24:18 GMT -8
I think Metro by now has made a complete travesty out of the term "prerevenue." It probably doesn't matter what it means, what it is, or when it starts anymore.
I saw two eastbound trains around 6:15 - 6:20 pm, one near 7th Avenue (a three-car train) and the other near La Brea Avenue (a two-car train). The one near 7th Avenue was travelling about 20 MPH, despite it being a 55 MPH zone.
I do predict an April 15 opening date to La Cienega.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Jan 30, 2012 21:37:44 GMT -8
I'm no expert in Light-rail signal synchronization technology, but really, is this problem really that hard to figure out?
At this rate we might as well tear up the intersection and start over...
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 30, 2012 22:06:05 GMT -8
That area is gated -- meaning trains have signal preemption at all times, with 55 MPH speed limit. I don't know why it was so slow. Perhaps operator training. Perhaps it's only pre-prerevenue.
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Post by tobias087 on Jan 30, 2012 23:38:47 GMT -8
I also saw 2 test trains today, at about 5:20pm at the Vermont station
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 8:47:46 GMT -8
Let's remember what is prerevenue according to the FTA handbook: 6.3.6 Pre-Revenue Operations Successful completion of system integration tests usually constitutes “substantial completion” and leads to the start of pre-revenue operations and testing. Sufficient time must be allocated to complete all testing and operations training prior to the date established to begin revenue service. These operations should be designed to mimic revenue operations and maintenance activities, except that passengers will not be carried. The following items may be considered in the evaluation of pre-revenue operations: • Notification procedures • Control center response • Transportation supervisory response • Maintenance response • Emergency responder response • Traction power sectionalization • Loss of signals and/or communications • Accident investigation procedures • Single-tracking performance • Simulated bus substitution • Train evacuation • Assumption of authority • Rescue train • Simulated public notification • “On the line” vehicle troubleshooting • Simulated emergency training The key sentence is "These operations should be designed to mimic revenue operations and maintenance activities, except that passengers will not be carried." Right now, they are in early stages of prerevenue, in which they are mainly preparing. They will also conduct emergency drills this weekend. Once they start mimicking the regular schedule, expect about six weeks to the revenue-operation date. There is more info from FTA here and here.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 8:55:00 GMT -8
Here is what happened with the Gold Line Eastside Extension. Prerevenue meant "regular schedule" -- no catches or gimmicks. The line opened six weeks later. With the Expo Line, they made a travesty of the situation and no one knows what is going on: Light Rail Trains Begin Pre-revenue Service Sunday, October 4, on Eastside Extension of Metro Gold LineTuesday September 29, 2009Metro Gold Line to East Los Angeles milestoneBeginning Sunday, October 4, the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (Metro) will reach another milestone as it begins the pre-revenue testing phase before the opening of the six-mile extension of the Metro Gold Line to East Los Angeles, which is expected this fall. The pre-revenue light rail train testing is designed to simulate revenue service operations on the new segment, synchronizing it with the service already provided between Union Station and Sierra Madre Villa Station in East Pasadena. The purpose of pre-revenue testing, which could last more than a month, is to familiarize Metro train operators and train control staff with simulated service. Since there will be many more test trains on the new alignment, stretching from Union Station through Little Tokyo and the downtown Arts District, Boyle Heights and East Los Angeles, Metro officials are urging the public to be alert and obey all safety warning devices and signage. When trains from Pasadena arrive at Union Station, all passengers will disembark then the trains will continue to Atlantic Station in East Los Angeles in a test mode. In turn, northbound trains coming from Atlantic Station will begin picking up passengers in Union Station and then continue to Sierra Madre Villa Station. During pre-revenue service, trains will run during peak hours every 7 minutes to 8 minutes in the morning and afternoon; midday service will be every 12 minutes, and night service will be every 20 minutes. Saturdays, Sundays and holidays schedules will be every 15 to 20 minutes during the morning; then at mid-morning, afternoon and early evening the trains will be every 12 minutes. Night service will be every 20 minutes. Train operators will begin making announcements on board trains beginning Wednesday, September 30, to alert the public about the new changes on the current schedule between Union Station and Sierra Madre Villa Station. The new timetable is posted on www.metro.net . The eight new stations of the Metro Gold Line to East Los Angeles include Little Tokyo/Arts District, Pico/Aliso, Mariachi Plaza (underground), Soto (underground), Indiana, Maravilla, ELA Civic Center and Atlantic. Metro began construction of the Metro Gold Line Eastside Extension in July 2004. The light rail construction project is within budget, on time and the contractor has logged more than 4 million working hours without a day lost for any accident or injuries.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 14:19:12 GMT -8
BREAKING NEWS: Expo Line prerevenue operation (sort of) began today
After one day of delay, Metro started the prerevenue operation, and I saw several test trains running along the line today. There is considerable delay (around five minutes) at the junction, which still seems to be operated in the manual mode. As Metro gets gradually comfortable with the junction and starts operating it automatically, we should see the full prerevenue operation taking place.
Here is the current timing of the line:
7th/Metro: 0 minutes Pico: 2 minutes 23rd St: 4 minutes (projected, not accounting for the current five-minute delay at the manually operated junction) Jefferson: 6 minutes USC / Expo Park: 8 minutes Vermont: 9.5 minutes La Brea: 21 minutes La Cienega: 23 minutes Culver City: 25 minutes (estimated)
Signal synchronization is still rather poor along the line. Trains spend considerable time at Crenshaw. If it wasn't for the delay at Crensahw, the time would be 2 minutes less. I was also surprised that the signal turned red at Menlo just before the train was about to depart eastbound from the Vermont Station. At Farmdale, it slows down to 15 MPH well before it comes near the platform.
The most difficult part of the prerevenue operation will be getting comfortable with the junction and reducing delays there and getting comfortable with turning the trains at 7th/Metro. More operator training and tests are needed to get the operations at the junction and 7th/Metro running smoothly. Once the junction and 7th/Metro are operating smoothly, the line can open very soon.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 31, 2012 16:46:20 GMT -8
Here is the current timing of the line:
7th/Metro: 0 minutes Pico: 2 minutes 23rd St: 4 minutes (projected, not accounting for the current five-minute delay at the manually operated junction) Jefferson: 6 minutes USC / Expo Park: 8 minutes Vermont: 9.5 minutes La Brea: 21 minutes La Cienega: 23 minutes Culver City: 25 minutes (estimated)
9.5 minutes and 21 minutes between Vermont and La Brea? That is extruciating.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 17:22:54 GMT -8
Here is the current timing of the line: 7th/Metro: 0 minutes Pico: 2 minutes 23rd St: 4 minutes (projected, not accounting for the current five-minute delay at the manually operated junction) Jefferson: 6 minutes USC / Expo Park: 8 minutes Vermont: 9.5 minutes La Brea: 21 minutes La Cienega: 23 minutes Culver City: 25 minutes (estimated) 9.5 minutes and 21 minutes between Vermont and La Brea? That is extruciating. Why? That's only 11.5 minutes. As I said, the train had to wait an extra 2 minutes at Crenshaw because it just missed the green light.
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Post by carter on Jan 31, 2012 17:56:03 GMT -8
9.5 minutes and 21 minutes between Vermont and La Brea? That is extruciating. Why? That's only 11.5 minutes. As I said, the train had to wait an extra 2 minutes at Crenshaw because it just missed the green light. That's an average speed of about 19 mph over a 3.7 mile stretch. If you knock off the 2 minutes, then it's 23 mph. That's pretty average for the line.
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Post by John Ryan on Jan 31, 2012 18:10:31 GMT -8
Many thanks to Gokhan and everyone else who have kept us informed. We would be lost without your expertise, with all the nonsense coming from other sources.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 19:48:40 GMT -8
Why? That's only 11.5 minutes. As I said, the train had to wait an extra 2 minutes at Crenshaw because it just missed the green light. That's an average speed of about 19 mph over a 3.7 mile stretch. If you knock off the 2 minutes, then it's 23 mph. That's pretty average for the line. Purple Line averages 5 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 23 MPH. Expo Line is currently averaging 8.7 miles / 25 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 21 MPH. If they can cut the time by another two minutes by better signal synchronization, it will be 8.7 M / 25 min * 60 min/hr = 23 MPH. In other words, if they can cut only two more minutes, the Expo Line at-grade light-rail will be as fast as the Purple Line subway. If we didn't have the Farmdale Station, the Expo Line at-grade light-rail would be faster than the Purple Line subway. Well, at least it's as fast as or almost as fast as the subway now. What this shows is that, if you have an abandoned rail right-of-way, you can build at-grade light-rail on it that will be as fast as a subway.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 31, 2012 20:53:56 GMT -8
I just drove home along the Expo Line from Watts Way all the way to Palms.
The prerevenue operation was in full force -- I lost the count of the trains. It's a really beautiful site at night with the red lights of the crossing gates flashing and the headlights of the trains shining, station lights decorating the surroundings, and the Exposition Boulevard well-lit!
The time between Vermont and La Brea was 10.5 minutes this time, a minute shorter. I think the time is going to get even better and we will see about 23 minutes from 7th/Metro to Culver City, including Farmdale.
Another current challenge now is to turn the trains around at the La Cienega Station. It looks like they are using the switch between La Brea and La Cienega. If they used the switch in Culver City, it would be faster but the construction is still going on there.
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Post by jamprit on Jan 31, 2012 22:14:07 GMT -8
If we didn't have the Farmdale Station, the Expo Line at-grade light-rail would be faster than the Purple Line subway. Well, at least it's as fast as or almost as fast as the subway now. What this shows is that, if you have an abandoned rail right-of-way, you can build at-grade light-rail on it that will be as fast as a subway.This is really remarkable. I wonder what the public perception of the speed will be, i.e., if the at-grade nature of the line will make the line seem slower, especially during the Farmdale segment. Great stuff. Thank you and everyone else for all of your hard work keeping tabs on this.
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Post by wad on Feb 1, 2012 3:40:15 GMT -8
I wonder what the public perception of the speed will be, i.e., if the at-grade nature of the line will make the line seem slower, especially during the Farmdale segment. Well, Marmion Way poisoned the well for the early years of the Gold Line. This is what people referred to as the whole line being unbearably slow.
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Post by metrocenter on Feb 1, 2012 8:13:30 GMT -8
Purple Line averages 5 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 23 MPH. 5 miles is incorrect. Per wikipedia, the Purple Line is 6.4 miles. Thus, 6.4 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 29.5 MPH. Per Urban Rail, it is 6.2 miles. Thus, 6.2 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 28.6 MPH. Any way you look at it, the Purple Line is much faster than the Expo Line will ever be. Nope.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 1, 2012 8:23:13 GMT -8
5 miles is incorrect. Per wikipedia, the Purple Line is 6.4 miles. Are you sure about it being incorrect? I am measuring 4.97 miles on Google Earth. Why don't you try it yourself? The Wikipedia number may be incorrect or perhaps includes the tracks for the maintenance facility.
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Post by masonite on Feb 1, 2012 9:22:39 GMT -8
Purple Line averages 5 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 23 MPH. 5 miles is incorrect. Per wikipedia, the Purple Line is 6.4 miles. Thus, 6.4 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 29.5 MPH. Per Urban Rail, it is 6.2 miles. Thus, 6.2 miles / 13 minutes * 60 minutes/hour = 28.6 MPH. Any way you look at it, the Purple Line is much faster than the Expo Line will ever be. Nope. The only reason why the Expo Line is even remotely competitive with the Purple Line, is because the Purple Line has most of its stations in Downtown LA and the Wilshire District. Pershing Square, Civic Center, and 7th Street Metro Center are all very close to each other as are Normandie, Vermont, and Western. The train never even really gets going between these stations before it has to slow down. As the Purple Line goes farther west with more normal station spacing, it will be much faster. From Western to La Brea, it will be cruising at 70 mph and blow away what light rail could do. For Expo in that corridor between Western and La Brea it will have to stop at Crenshaw and then wait for the signal and then stop at Farmdale as well as cross other streets and signals and at no point would it get close to 70 mph. A better comparison would be the Red Line as it is a real transit line at this point. The Purple Line is just a unique stub right now.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 1, 2012 9:45:05 GMT -8
The only reason why the Expo Line is even remotely competitive with the Purple Line, is because the Purple Line has most of its stations in Downtown LA and the Wilshire District. Pershing Square, Civic Center, and 7th Street Metro Center are all very close to each other as are Normandie, Vermont, and Western. The train never even really gets going between these stations before it has to slow down. As the Purple Line goes farther west with more normal station spacing, it will be much faster. From Western to La Brea, it will be cruising at 70 mph and blow away what light rail could do. For Expo in that corridor between Western and La Brea it will have to stop at Crenshaw and then wait for the signal and then stop at Farmdale as well as cross other streets and signals and at no point would it get close to 70 mph. A better comparison would be the Red Line as it is a real transit line at this point. The Purple Line is just a unique stub right now. Remotely competitive? It looks like Expo and Purple Lines average just about the same speed, assuming that the junction doesn't slow the Expo and Blue Line trains or they don't have problem turning the trains around at either termini. Red Line is not an honest comparison, as it has a very long straight section without stations. Purple Line is 5.0 miles and has 8 stations. Expo Line is 8.7 miles and has 12 stations: Expo Line is 3.7 miles longer and has 4 extra stations. Therefore, they roughly have the same station spacing. Remember how close the stations are around USC for the Expo Line. Therefore, your argument about station spacing fails. I agree that the Purple Line will average faster when it's extended to the Westside. But that was never my argument. The bottom line is that Expo Line seems to be pretty darn fast from the numbers I am getting during the prerevenue testing. Let's keep our fingers crossed that it gets even faster or stays as fast. And, yes, it's head-to-head with the existing Purple Line in terms of speed.
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