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Post by TransportationZ on Feb 9, 2012 7:07:19 GMT -8
I can't figure out why Seattle has no problem building an the entirely underground and expensive U-Link, but we can't build an 8-mile at grade LRT. Pathetic. Hmmm, while I don't want to support the management of this project, which I agree has been pretty poor (should definitely have opened many months ago), maybe that comparison isn't exactly fair. If you tunnel deep enough, all you have to worry about are the access points for the TBM, and the station boxes. There are (hopefully) fewer lawsuits about whether a section near a school is elevated, at grade, or gets its own podunk station. There is potentially less utility relocation to do, etc. Each project has its own pros and cons, and aren't necessarily comparable. The Expo line, though, has had some pretty damn slack management. Utility relocation should NOT have slowed down the project if DWP had done what it needed to do. Also, I direct you to our own Red Line showing that tunneling can even have similar issues like Expo. It's a shame that this one at grade line to Santa Monica is taking a decade to build. I also wish we would quit this phase crap. Imagine if the Blue Line only opened to Imperial Wilmington and it took another half decade to get it to Long Beach.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 9, 2012 8:51:42 GMT -8
It has really put Los Angeles to shame. Every other city is building many light rail lines on time and under budget. Is there any other city that remotely comes close to the scale of the recent, current, and future rail expansion in Los Angeles? These projects are inherently risky, as they are big, complex, and run through highly developed urban areas. Utility relocation was only one of the many things that slowed down the Expo Line. Don't forget the Farmdale legal challenges, which delayed the construction by a year. There was a lot of bureaucracy involved in many stages. The contractor turned out to be incompetent and greedy. The local-jobs program also slowed the construction significantly. The project is delayed by two years, but it's not that these are short-term projects. Considering that we're looking at a 100-year project, a two-year delay is really nothing. The main reason for dividing the project into phases was the lack of funds at that time. Also, there was a lot of opposition from Cheviot Hills, which had to be sorted out before that section could be planned.
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Post by matthewb on Feb 9, 2012 9:05:08 GMT -8
The main reason for dividing the project into phases was the lack of funds at that time. Also, there was a lot of opposition from Cheviot Hills, which had to be sorted out before that section could be planned. There's a mantra in software engineering: "release early, release often." If you try to build too big of a project all at once, you're as slow as the slowest part of the whole thing. Phasing has some disadvantages, but can be quite useful when planning under uncertainty. Imagine if phases one and two were grouped as one project. There is the possibility that they would be done faster, but (i) it's likely that we would still be waiting for "phase 2" before phase 1 would open, (ii) we could be stuck with the same bad contractor for the whole project, and (iii) planning could be stuck for a lot longer in multiple law suits and appeals because there would be that much more to attack in the EIR. At least this way we're going to get a line opened to (almost) Culver City soon, and Metro has a chance to correct some of the mistakes made so far during phase 2.
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Post by matthewb on Feb 9, 2012 9:11:03 GMT -8
Also, I direct you to our own Red Line showing that tunneling can even have similar issues like Expo. Technologies have improved quite a bit in the last decade. TBMs are amazing compared with the technology used in constructing the Red Line and are one of the reasons we can actually proceed with Purple line construction after Henry Waxman legislated that parts of the westside be labeled "methane zones" where tunneling was prohibited. Because TBM technology has advanced so much, those safety concerns are no longer founded. It's still much more expensive than building a surface line, even with Expo's cost overruns, but it means that construction can be simpler when tunneling makes sense.
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 9, 2012 23:23:43 GMT -8
Not of the same magnitude as the Expo delays, but the Blue Line didn't open 100% in July 1990--neither the tunnel to 7th & Flower nor the downtown Long Beach loop were in service on opening day. And much as I like to comment about how much easier it was for Henry Huntington, "them days is gone forever"--we don't have men in towers to oversee junction points like Flower & Washington, or live switchmen out in all kinds of weather to route the cars to their proper tracks.
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Post by roadtrainer on Feb 10, 2012 11:58:20 GMT -8
I'm doing the lunch relief for the Walnut Park/ Florence and Firestone Shuttle, the time is about 10:30 AM and I am west bound at the Florence Blue Line tracks. There i see going north bound a 2 car Siemens train. (running Empty) Could it be that they are practicing the some times a Siemens train will go to Long Beach and vise veser on the Sharyo trains?
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 10, 2012 14:13:23 GMT -8
I'm doing the lunch relief for the Walnut Park/ Florence and Firestone Shuttle, the time is about 10:30 AM and I am west bound at the Florence Blue Line tracks. There i see going north bound a 2 car Siemens train. (running Empty) Could it be that they are practicing the some times a Siemens train will go to Long Beach and vise veser on the Sharyo trains? That's probably one of the Expo test trains. They usually run two-car Siemens trains.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 10, 2012 14:17:10 GMT -8
They have finally started working on the Culver City Station area. They are now grading the area around the station and parking lot for the station. Soon, we should see the dirt getting paved.
They are still working on the TPSS and signaling system there though. Therefore, it will probably be several weeks before train testing can start there.
Surprisingly, they were still working on the La Cienega Station today. After all this time, the contractor still hasn't finished everything.
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Post by James Fujita on Feb 10, 2012 16:13:40 GMT -8
Also, I direct you to our own Red Line showing that tunneling can even have similar issues like Expo. Technologies have improved quite a bit in the last decade. TBMs are amazing compared with the technology used in constructing the Red Line and are one of the reasons we can actually proceed with Purple line construction after Henry Waxman legislated that parts of the westside be labeled "methane zones" where tunneling was prohibited. Because TBM technology has advanced so much, those safety concerns are no longer founded. It's still much more expensive than building a surface line, even with Expo's cost overruns, but it means that construction can be simpler when tunneling makes sense. Somebody at Metro really needs to spread the word on TBM technology because I think a lot of people and the media generally assume that tunneling is going to be messier than it actually is. More meetings in Little Tokyo, perhaps and a few in Beverly Hills, too. I'm totally in favor of phased openings, and I think the Blue Line provides a perfect example for the Expo Line. Opening as far as La Cienega means opening to USC and Exposition Park as well, and that's going to be a huge attrraction for people (who aren't commuting from Culver City to downtown). There's a lot of special events (there's always something going on) that the Expo Line can be part of if they could get that first half open sooner.
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Post by masonite on Feb 10, 2012 16:42:08 GMT -8
I think Expo had to be in two phases mostly because there was no funding for Phase II at the time Phase I started. Also, it would have been much more complex to get the whole thing done at once. If it was all in one phase we'd be looking at nothing done until 2016 most likely. Can you imagine FFP doing the whole project. Yikes...
Opening to near Culver City and then Culver City is certainly not as good as opening the whole line, but I still think this will be a great line even with just Phase I open. As someone who lives west of the 405, I will even use it on occasion and not just to check it out, but for practical reasons.
I think one aspect that can be criticized was the option to avoid going after New Starts funds. The rationale was that we could open the line sooner without it, but that is already out the window with the current timelines.
Hopefully, at the next Expo Authority Meeting in early March, we'll get a announced opening date and a real update on the Phase II problems and lack of progress.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 10, 2012 17:42:34 GMT -8
Hopefully, at the next Expo Authority Meeting in early March, we'll get a announced opening date and a real update on the Phase II problems and lack of progress. It's quite possible that they will announce the revenue-operation date in early March. Although, it will probably be announced by Metro, not Expo. I don't expect any (major) update on the Phase 2 progress. Last time the design was at 60% and it would start progressing again once the various third parties finished reviewing it.
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outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
Posts: 33
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Post by outthere15 on Feb 10, 2012 20:21:46 GMT -8
When they finally get around to completing the La Cienega to Culver City section of this line, what will be the testing protocol for testing it. Will they have to perform a full Pre-revenue, six weeks test of a line that is a one station extension?
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 10, 2012 20:29:42 GMT -8
When they finally get around to completing the La Cienega to Culver City section of this line, what will be the testing protocol for testing it. Will they have to perform a full Pre-revenue, six weeks test of a line that is a one station extension? Most definitely there will be a full prerevenue operation there. All trains will unload all passengers at La Cienega and then proceed to Culver City as test trains and then come back and run as regular trains again. Culver City operation is nontrivial as it's the end of the line and involves turning the trains around.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 11, 2012 19:00:36 GMT -8
I hope you enjoy this video clip of a westbound Expo Line train I recorded last night. It starts just east of Denker Avenue and ends at the La Cienega Station. The train stops at the Western, Crenshaw, Farmdale, and La Brea Stations in between.
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Post by TransportationZ on Feb 11, 2012 22:30:56 GMT -8
I think Expo had to be in two phases mostly because there was no funding for Phase II at the time Phase I started. Also, it would have been much more complex to get the whole thing done at once. If it was all in one phase we'd be looking at nothing done until 2016 most likely. Can you imagine FFP doing the whole project. Yikes... Opening to near Culver City and then Culver City is certainly not as good as opening the whole line, but I still think this will be a great line even with just Phase I open. As someone who lives west of the 405, I will even use it on occasion and not just to check it out, but for practical reasons. I think one aspect that can be criticized was the option to avoid going after New Starts funds. The rationale was that we could open the line sooner without it, but that is already out the window with the current timelines. Hopefully, at the next Expo Authority Meeting in early March, we'll get a announced opening date and a real update on the Phase II problems and lack of progress. I think I got the message that I'm wrong already.
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Post by carter on Feb 12, 2012 14:38:46 GMT -8
I hope you enjoy this video clip of a westbound Expo Line train I recorded last night. It starts just east of Denker Avenue and ends at the La Cienega Station. The train stops at the Western, Crenshaw, Farmdale, and La Brea Stations in between. The train really takes off after the Rodeo/Jefferson split!
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 12, 2012 17:56:09 GMT -8
I think I got the message that I'm wrong already. No problem. The important thing is not to be right or wrong but have fun. Some people on this board have been following Los Angeles transit issues so closely and for so long that they have an encyclopedic knowledge of the matter, and you will enjoy learning from them.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 12, 2012 17:57:04 GMT -8
The train really takes off after the Rodeo/Jefferson split! It's very hard to catch up with it, especially when you're trying so hard that the wind doesn't blow the camera off your hand. One of those days, I will drop it off the window. LOL
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Post by bzcat on Feb 13, 2012 11:50:41 GMT -8
The train really takes off after the Rodeo/Jefferson split! It's very hard to catch up with it, especially when you're trying so hard that the wind doesn't blow the camera off your hand. One of those days, I will drop it off the window. LOL You need to mount it on the roof! ;D
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 13, 2012 17:55:23 GMT -8
Gökhan, if you have about $20, you can get one of these at Samy's camera in Culver City - or on Amazon by clicking the picture. I used it for a couple of Expo vids and it made it really easy!
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Post by roadtrainer on Feb 14, 2012 7:41:01 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 14, 2012 11:06:56 GMT -8
Gökhan, if you have about $20, you can get one of these at Samy's camera in Culver City - or on Amazon by clicking the picture. I used it for a couple of Expo vids and it made it really easy! Thanks. I have $20 but am inclined not to get it, as otherwise, I will keep filming Expo everyday. LOL
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 14, 2012 11:09:25 GMT -8
Two months. April 15.
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Post by transituser23 on Feb 14, 2012 11:17:31 GMT -8
Hope this is not off topic but I am trying to find out what provisions will be made for bicycle users on Expo phase one. The La Cienega station is too far to walk from my home. Will bikes be allowed on the trains? Are there any designated bike paths that lead to the station? Will there be any facilities for bikes at the Culver City station? thanks
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Post by roadtrainer on Feb 14, 2012 11:33:45 GMT -8
Today while doing the lunch relief for the Walnut Park Shuttle, I was east bound at 9:24 A.M. I saw a Siemens three car train at Florence and Passengers were aboard. (It was going southbound.) So I guess they are running trains due to demand either to Culver City or Long Beach. By the way the rear head-sign said "Del Amo" So that tells me the head-signs must be new on all the trains .(P.S. I did not see the front headsign)
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Post by roadtrainer on Feb 14, 2012 11:41:50 GMT -8
From my friend Dwight:
Quote:From: Thorpe, Rick Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:55 AM To: 'Dwight B Sturtevant' Subject: RE: Venice/Robertson station
Still targeting Early-March for testing.
From: Dwight B Sturtevant [mailto:tvman@mapinternet.com] Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 7:25 PM To: Thorpe, Rick Subject: Venice/Robertson station
Can You or the Expo authority provide any updates regarding the testing of the Venice/Robertson station
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 14, 2012 11:50:14 GMT -8
Hope this is not off topic but I am trying to find out what provisions will be made for bicycle users on Expo phase one. The La Cienega station is too far to walk from my home. Will bikes be allowed on the trains? Are there any designated bike paths that lead to the station? Will there be any facilities for bikes at the Culver City station? thanks The answers are yes to all your questions.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 14, 2012 11:51:47 GMT -8
Still targeting Early-March for testing. I would say more like mid-March. They are still working on the TPSS and signaling systems there.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 15, 2012 9:28:47 GMT -8
I just happened to listen to the address of USC President C. L. Max Nikias. He mentioned every big and small project, even the trees to be planted, but there was no mention of the $2.5-billion Expo Line, to open in two months and serve USC with three stations. USC is still very detached and isolated from the real world.
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Post by simonla on Feb 15, 2012 11:54:50 GMT -8
Maybe he's reluctant to announce the line since it's been delayed so many times--and an official opening date is yet to be set.
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