|
Post by spokker on Apr 7, 2009 17:41:24 GMT -8
How does the Blue Line positively impact the communities it serves for the better? Are there measurable increases in the quality of life in these communities? How many hours of travel time, for example, have been estimated to have been saved simply because the Blue Line exists?
Does the Blue Line help decrease unemployment? Does the Blue Line help reduce pollution? Does the Blue Line make people happier than they would be if buses were the only option, or is it just the same misery that travels on steel wheels rather than rubber tires?
Transit advocates advocate light rail because of the supposed benefits they offer. What have been the benefits of the Blue Line between Los Angeles and Long Beach?
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 7, 2009 23:41:53 GMT -8
Nobody seems to be answering so I'll offer up some thoughts. One of my favorite articles describes life on the "ghetto blue." www.laweekly.com/2004-01-22/news/killing-time-on-the-ghetto-blueTransit advocates preach the benefits of light rail, but this author clearly bemoans the Blue Line, calling it a scar on the city. Did the Blue Line make life in South LA better or worse? Perhaps the neighborhoods of this region are still poor, dangerous places, but does the Blue Line improve the area at least a little bit?
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 7, 2009 23:45:01 GMT -8
So which was faster, express bus routes or the Blue Line?
|
|
|
Post by ieko on Apr 8, 2009 5:28:47 GMT -8
The Blue Line is, I'm using the 44X for comparision. Seems like on average the Blue is about 15-30 minutes faster for the same distance.
If I had the choice I'd take the Blue Line to downtown more often but living in Torrance there is no east-west service fast enough to get me to a station, so I take 4XX.
|
|
Adrian Auer-Hudson
Junior Member
Supporter of "Expo Light Rail - Enabler for the Digital Coast".
Posts: 65
|
Post by Adrian Auer-Hudson on Apr 8, 2009 9:03:47 GMT -8
For a year 2005 thru 2006 I was staying in Los Alamitos and working in Hollywood (Paramount Studios). My best travel choices where to drive utilizing I405, I110 and US101, or drive to Willow, then Blue Line to 7th St Metro, Red Line to Hollywood and then various buses. The evening journey was the reverse of the foregoing.
Whilst the bus and train changes were a pain, the public transportation journey was by far the superior. It cost less, and was easier on the soul. Instead of enduring hours of freeway frustration and stupidity I could relax and utilize the time to catch up on some reading.
My current contract in Reno, NV is devoid of tranist possibilities. The drive is easy. But, I do miss my reading time on the Blue and Red lines.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 8, 2009 10:29:13 GMT -8
Lots of people liked that "ghetto blue" article, but I didn't care for it myself.
I don't think that the blue line has brought many changes, but it's hard to say. Certainly nothing drastic like the TOD's that have popped up in other places. It has made the commute easier for people that were already transit dependent and it's also given a choice to people that would normally have driven. It’s certainly a benefit for the 70-80K people per day that use it but the “fringe” benefits aren’t as obvious as they are for the other lines.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 8, 2009 11:41:38 GMT -8
But not all of those 70-80k people believe that Blue Line is a benefit. Some people I know who are poor and Hispanic will refuse to take the Blue Line anymore. They've had bad experiences.
My question is, did the Blue Line turn the neighborhoods it runs through into a ghetto or more of a ghetto or did the neighborhood turn the Blue Line into a ghetto train?
Because of environmental racism in the past, is it preferable or right to overbuild mass transit in the inner city, even if traffic patterns, demand and geography don't warrant it? Do we count up the black people in the community and if there are enough of them, do we go ahead with a grade separation?
|
|
|
Post by James Fujita on Apr 8, 2009 13:40:43 GMT -8
Spokker, if you have a personal beef about the Blue Line, come right out and say it. Complaints are fine. I'm sure we'd all love to hear what sort of problems you have with the Blue Line AND the solutions you have in mind. Just don't ask a bunch of cryptic, vaguely-rhetorical questions and expect the rest of us to give you the answers that you want.
Your personal anecdote also leaves something to be desired. I don't know these people that you are talking about who have had bad experiences with the Blue Line or what the bad experiences were. Was their train late? Did it break down? Did it run into somebody too stupid to understand what crossing gates are for? Did they run into some dangerous looking punks on the train? Did a ticket machine eat their money? Some of these problems could have easy solutions; I don't know, I'm not a Metro service representative. Without more context, it is impossible to judge if they had valid complaints or if they were paranoid/pessimists/had chips on their shoulders.
The technology used on the Blue Line is the same as the technology used on the Green Line and the Gold Line, and it is similar to that used on the Red Line. From an environmental standpoint, the benefit of the Blue Line should be the same as with the rest of our rail lines. Any environmental complaint would also apply equally to all the lines (with possible differences for underground lines, freeway-based rail lines and elevated lines).
As far as I can tell, the fact that the Blue Line travels through a bad neighborhood does not make the Blue Line a bad train.
When the Blue Line was first created, the TOD concept wasn't as well developed as it is now. There are undoubtedly capitalist economic and financial factors which would help explain why developers haven't built TODs along the Blue Line the way that they have with the Red and Gold Lines, but I don't think you can blame the train itself for that.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 8, 2009 15:32:07 GMT -8
I think the Blue Line is great in theory. We trumpet the theoretical benefits of light rail but I wanted to know what measurable impacts it has had. But how the hell would I know about the benefits it provides? I'm just a mutt from Anaheim.
We hear a lot about fatalities and accidents, but are there any studies about the economic benefits? Does it allow a person to hold a job they otherwise wouldn't be able to hold? Does it allow people with limited mobility to get further than they would otherwise be able to on buses?
The other aspect of it is social. I was uncomfortable on the few tours of the Blue Line I have taken. I was a transit tourist so to speak, and I only rode it to 1) see what it was like and 2) because I like trains. Perhaps I have a mental condition that causes me to fixate on mass transit.
I was not fearful of being hurt or robbed, but I was definitely more cautious of my surroundings than if I were on say, Metrolink or the Gold Line.
On my Blue Line trips I saw a group of girls get into a fight. I was asked for money several times. I was asked to buy perfume and other items. Though I never felt like I was in any danger, those are uncomfortable things to experience.
Anecdotally, I can only tell you that a friend of mine stopped riding the Blue Line because he witnessed a guy pull a knife on another guy. It did not escalate beyond that.
I would take the Blue Line again if I felt like it. I understand logically that the risk of anything actually happening to me is very low. But there is no ridding myself of my belief that nobody wants me there and that I don't belong there. I wish we could go anywhere we wanted to without fear, but there are borders both real and perceived that stop us.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Apr 8, 2009 15:38:50 GMT -8
I've rarely witnessed problems of fighting or other antisocial behavior on the Blue Line. Well, except for the homeless sleeping on the seats.
The main way the Blue Line has improved life is that it provides a route from Long Beach to Los Angeles where you can pretty dependably get there in less than an hour. Before the Blue Line, you were totally at the mercy of traffic, even when taking the bus.
|
|
|
Post by erict on Apr 8, 2009 16:56:05 GMT -8
I rode the Blue line for years (being totally white as a ghost) so I am not sure what the problem is. I also never saw an accident or any incident other than the rare annoying homeless person. Most keep to themselves. My interest was in getting to work and getting home - nothing else mattered. The Blue line is totally important for Los Angeles, and it's importance will grow when the rail system grows.
My complaint about the Blue line is that it is slow compared to the Red or Green line. All of our rail lines should be totally grade-separated, but since California, the Federal government and most people outside this board don't value mass transit, we have what we have. Also, I think, the RTD and the MTA were battling each other for funding of the two competing projects (the Red line and the Blue line) in the years that they were built. I think that intersections that pose a problem on the blue line should be re-built to go under the tracks like the Alameda East project is doing.
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on Apr 8, 2009 16:59:49 GMT -8
I remember in the 60's some observers saw the abandonment of the Pacific Electric line through Watts as one of the contributing factors to the 1965 riots. Has bringing back a modern version of the Red Car made a difference? I'm out in the San Gabriel Valley, so I don't have much cause to ride the Blue Line--recently I've just taken it as far at Trade Tech to check on the Expo project. When I have taken it to Long Beach, it's been crowded, but not unpleasant. On one trip I had a nice chat with a retired Southern Pacific machinist. On the other hand, some electric railfan friends of mine rode from 7th St. to Vernon Ave., felt uncomfortable, and took the next train from Vernon back downtown; maybe they were feeling "a bit pale". We might want to remember that PE ran three-car trains only in rush hours--the Blue Line runs three-unit trains all day long.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Apr 8, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -8
As far as measuring the Blue Line's effect on life, it is pretty much impossible to do something like that. I just know it is a heavily used rail line and it is making a difference on some level for quite a few of those people.
As far as riding on the Blue Line, I am just a white guy who grew up in the South Bay and lives on the Westside, so I have only been on the Blue Line a handful of times. I certainly have never had any problems and didn't find anything or anyone the least bit threatening. I really think this has to do with one's comfort and experience with urban settings. I have seen Orange County people come to LA and be so intimidated they could hardly get out of their car. In the end, this is all mental. One passenger riding the Blue Line is far safer than someone driving their car on a street or freeway.
Overall, I find the Blue Line to be the most interesting of the rail lines we have. You really get a feel for the communities and neighborhoods it goes through. Even though I would like a safer line with more grade-separation and it would be nice to see some TODs here, the fact that it is not grade separated in many parts and there are no TODs adds to its local and real feel.
Finally, as a nod to Bob's posts, this line most embodies the old Pacific Electric in my mind (all in my mind, because I am way too young to have ever riden a PE) because of the above factors. When it opened the cars even had a red stripe as a homage to the old Pacific Electric.
|
|
|
Post by kenalpern on Apr 8, 2009 21:55:31 GMT -8
I think it's impossible to ever truly know the benefits of the Blue Line any more than the benefits of the 710 or 110 freeways. They run through some lousy neighborhoods, lots of crimes on and around them, etc., but they get people to/from work.
This rail line, and the accompanying freeways, can and should get upgraded to move faster and to ensure safety. However, it's not really due to their original construction as much as the lack of public/political will to raise the bar to ensure safety, enforce the law, have a solid police/sheriffs presence and to keep up with the times as the need for maintenance inevitably occurs over time.
|
|
vnc
New Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by vnc on Apr 9, 2009 12:36:08 GMT -8
So which was faster, express bus routes or the Blue Line? Between Los Angeles and Long Beach. I remember using Old SCRTD Line 456. Which was the only express Bus at that time. I remember the bus was a little quicker then the Blue Line. But the Bus didn't make as many stops. It did use the 710 fwy to the 60 or and got off near the East L A near. The other routes back they had was Line 457. A peak hour only. But I never have any direct interaction with it. Recent Lines 446 and 447 was the only other express Lines I could recall from that time. Before the Blue Line was opened.
|
|
|
Post by JerardWright on Apr 9, 2009 13:06:47 GMT -8
But not all of those 70-80k people believe that Blue Line is a benefit. Some people I know who are poor and Hispanic will refuse to take the Blue Line anymore. They've had bad experiences. My question is, did the Blue Line turn the neighborhoods it runs through into a ghetto or more of a ghetto or did the neighborhood turn the Blue Line into a ghetto train? There are transit lines elevated, subway, at-grade when they run through "Ghetto" areas tell more of their political system and what landuses were once or in some cases still there. I can think of the elevated Green Line in Chicago running through economically depressed areas in the South and West sides that were once major factory locations, some of the riders would be labeled as "Ghetto" could it be a case of condition of the steel structure elevated track, directly over Lake Street? From a design point, yes, however from an environmental justice issue it isn't because there locations like that in the nicer North Side of Chicago where Yuppies are building right next to the steel elevated tracks that are built over the street. In the case of the Blue Line, even with Alameda Corridor trench, there are still freight trains rumbling next to the Blue Line tracks limiting the potential development, if a major "green industrial job" where to be zoned along the corridor and tax breaks given that may help or even find a way to stop freight movement next to the Blue Line tracks or even redefine those large industrial parcels as Artists districts where artists can have room to work and live and have access to transportation.
|
|
cph
New Member
Posts: 4
|
Post by cph on Apr 11, 2009 11:04:21 GMT -8
I rode the Blue Line nearly every workday for 11 years, riding from Downtown to Wilmington/Imperial in the mornings and back up in the evenings.
For the most part, trips were uneventful. Occasionally (maybe about 1-2 times per month) there would be delays--sometimes an accident, but more likely "mechanical problems" (usually, a door getting stuck).
Most passengers were quiet and no-one made any waves. Occasionally there would be someone begging for money, or preaching, or selling stuff like batteries, candy, etc. Those events came in waves; sometimes there would be several months where nothing much happened, then you'd get the preachers, or the beggars, etc. It was often the same people day after day, too.
Before the Blue Line, I'd take the RTD #456. This bus, which was one of the replacements for the Red Car, ran from Downtown through East LA, then on I-710 to Long Beach, getting off the freeway at Bixby Knolls, then running limited stops down Long Beach Boulevard. The running time was about an hour during the day, 45 minutes overnight (it ran all night). This was fine if you needed to get to Long Beach, but most of the cities along the old Red Car route (e.g. Watts, Willowbrook, Compton) *never* got any sort of express service until the Blue Line opened in 1990. These places were stuck with slow local buses on surface streets, and no real effort was ever made to provide a freeway-express bus service to Downtown.
As far as TOD along the Blue Line, it has for the most part, not happened. But hope springs eternal....
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Sept 20, 2010 14:39:27 GMT -8
This experience is from a long time ago, but from late 1997 through 1998 I was riding all the rail lines from El Segundo to Union Station, in the evening, twice each week. This entailed (1) boarding the Green Line at Aviation, (2) changing to the Blue at Imperial/Wilmington, and (3) finally to the Red at 7th St. This would be about 6pm on the way going. At around 9pm I would make the reverse trip back to El Segundo.
In general, I never felt unsafe on any of the trains, even the Blue Line, although once or twice, in all those trips, a "character" boarded the Green Line car I was sitting in. The one I remember seemed to be some sort of wandering evangelist who would carry on a sort of running sermon or prayer meeting, interspersed with snatches of hymns which, I must admit, he sang quite beautifully. As for safety, FWIW I'd far rather wait to change lines at a well-lighted train station than get off one bus at some dark, lonely corner to change to another line.
Now, at the time I lived in West L.A. but I worked in El Segundo. Undoubtedly I could have made the trip faster if I drove, but, apart from the consideration of parking, I still would have had to spend a lot of time stalled in traffic. Besides the fact that I am a naturally impatient person in traffic, I enjoyed the downtime spent sitting in the trains, which I usually devoted to reading.
|
|
|
Post by pithecanthropus on Sept 20, 2010 14:46:11 GMT -8
To add to my last post, which was a bit off-topic, the Blue Line does have a grade-separated right of way for much of its route, where it operates much like an "El" back east. In these sections it approaches its maximum cruising speed of 55 mph. For commuters that need to use it, I can't imagine how hanging from a strap on a slow lurching bus is better than having to stand on a train.
|
|
|
Post by gatewaygent on Sept 21, 2010 1:28:23 GMT -8
I rode the Blue Line as a consequence of a change in service made to MTA Bus Line 266. It was truncated from the Long Beach VA Hospital/Cal State Long Beach to the Lakewood Mall. I was irate and all my complaining did nothing to stop it. I experimented with taking the MTA 111/266/LBT 94 and the MTA 111/Blue Line/LBT 94. After all was said and done, it took about the same amount of time to get to class, so I opted for the Blue Line route. The trains were much cleaner; and even when I would take the night train that decoupled at Willow Station, I was still home in the same amount of time, 1 hr. 50 min.
I understand there were plans once to build the Blue Line as a HRT subway under Pacific Bl. in Huntington Park through to Long Beach? How true is that if at all? This incarnation of the Blue Line would have been better for Huntington Park and Southgate since they're incorporated. Unincorporated South L.A. just doesn't get the attention it needs half the time.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Sept 21, 2010 6:37:16 GMT -8
^^ I feel your pain, I've had to deal with hellish commutes like that myself. Both in the car and on the bus. I'm originally from Huntington Park, and in my pre-car days I commuted to Pasadena for one job and Culver City for another. In both cases I had 1-1/2 to 2 hour bus commutes, since this was in the days before the Metro Rail could be of any help (early 1990s). I've never heard of any plan to build an HRT line to Huntington Park. There were plans for HRT out Wilshire Blvd. to East L.A. The Gateway Cities do tend to get the shaft when it comes to transit. The Green Line hardly counts, with only three poorly-located stations east of Imperial/Wilmington. I'm holding out some hope that the "West Santa Ana Corridor" project will include some routing that connects to Huntington Park and/or South Gate. If you're interested, there will be more community meetings this November/December as part of the "alternatives analysis". Info here.
|
|
|
Post by gatewaygent on Sept 25, 2010 0:31:08 GMT -8
I didn't describe it as fully as I should have; apologies for that. It goes back to the days when Tom Bradley was still Mayor. It's probably an unfounded rumor but the plan had been to build the Blue Line as a HRT line from DTLA on a route that would have used Pacific Bl./Long Beach Bl. with DT Long Beach being the terminus. That or I'm confusing it for a route that was supposed to link Pasadena and Long Beach via Atlantic Av.? How I wish I remembered when/where I read or saw all this!
Thank you for the info on the "West Santa Ana Corridor." I tried writing letters advocating for use of the old Whittier ROW along Randolph. The routing is unimportant now. None of the letters were answered and a few came back as "No Such Person/Address." I lost passion for it ever since. Someone with a more ardent sense of passion will come along one day and write a better letter to mobilize the area into action.
So as to not veer away from the topic, I rode the Blue Line today, via the Red Line and the East L.A. Gold Line. I live in East L.A. now. It was a nice trip. I met friends on Pine Av., had lunch, walked it off, then came back. If I had to bus it all the way to Long Beach from East L.A., I would have stayed home instead! The trip probably took a little longer, but who wants to play Russian Roulette on the bus and take a chance that the air conditioner is not working.
|
|
|
Post by James Fujita on Sept 25, 2010 20:44:01 GMT -8
I didn't describe it as fully as I should have; apologies for that. It goes back to the days when Tom Bradley was still Mayor. It's probably an unfounded rumor but the plan had been to build the Blue Line as a HRT line from DTLA on a route that would have used Pacific Bl./Long Beach Bl. with DT Long Beach being the terminus. That or I'm confusing it for a route that was supposed to link Pasadena and Long Beach via Atlantic Av.? How I wish I remembered when/where I read or saw all this! The dark ages of Los Angeles transit (1961-1990) are full of proposals, plans and ideas, both crazy and sensible which got shot down. It's probably best not to dwell on what might have been, could have been and never was. If you're really interested in looking up local history, some local libraries still have transit and freeway plans from the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s. Subways, privately-operated monorails, elevated rail lines, bullet trains, people movers, extending the Blue Line to Belmont Shore... it's all been proposed. The version you're thinking of may be the 1968 plan, which was all HRT, but I don't think it was clear on the specifics. It got shot down a couple of times. The way I look at it, for every good idea that got rejected by a reactionary population, there's at least one really bad idea that got rejected. The Beverly Hills Freeway? The Richard Nixon Freeway? In any case, the Blue Line as we currently know it didn't come into existence until the passage of Prop. A in 1980. I might still have one of the flyers from 1985 which shows the LACTC project WITHOUT the Long Beach loop (and some pretty funky light rail trains in RTD colors), but still pretty much the same light rail line which exists now. edit: Here's the Transport Politic's take on L.A. transit alternate history scenarios
|
|
|
Post by gatewaygent on Sept 25, 2010 23:05:03 GMT -8
To dwell or not to dwell...I think I'll stop dwelling and even then I'm still dwelling LOL! Thank you for the link, I've found a bunch of other sites, one that even features pics of the old J Line down Pacific Bl. and a pic of Walker Station of the PE Whittier Line in Maywood/Bell circa 1929(?).
I'm really glad we have the Blue Line. When the DTC opens, I can imagine ridership maxing out to where acquisition of the rails next to the Blue Line becomes necessary and results in dedicated express service or where development of the Vermont Corridor becomes a no brainer. The best thing the DTC will due, with respect to the Blue Line and Pasadena Gold Line is make DTLA a point along the route rather than the destination it's not.
|
|
|
Post by matthewb on Sept 26, 2010 9:00:17 GMT -8
I would assume that some of the highest ridership stops on the Gold/Blue/Expo agglomeration will be the newly created downtown stops. DTC not only creates links between north/south/east/west LA county, but gives better access to the hundreds of thousands of downtown jobs (and some of the highest housing density in LA county) from the 4 spokes that feed into the DTC. It will shorten metro commutes to Bunker Hill by 10-15 minutes, which is quite significant. DTC is a great idea for many reasons, and DTLA is definitely a major destination for a large number of riders.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Sept 26, 2010 10:18:46 GMT -8
The DTC will have lots of benefits. Keep in mind, once the DTC comes online, the critical shared segment will extend all the way down to Washington/Flower, street-running. This will be the new problem area, I'm guessing. We've had many discussions about this issue on other threads. The best solution might be a tunnel under Figueroa. But that's way off-topic for this thread.
In my case, I now live in Long Beach and work in Monrovia. Unfortunately, commuting via transit would take me about two hours. But with the DTC and the Foothill Line, it would be closer to one hour. I still take the Blue Line for recreation, though.
|
|
|
Post by crzwdjk on Sept 26, 2010 11:08:27 GMT -8
It's unfortunate that the opening of Expo will lead to both an increase in demand and a decrease in service on the Blue Line. Right now, there rush hour headway alternates between 5 and 6 minutes, and there's a brief period of 5 minute headway at the height of the peak. With Expo the Blue Line headway will increase to 6 minutes to make room for Expo. The question here is whether this is a limit imposed by the turnaround arrangements at 7th/Metro, which will go away with the opening of the DTC, or by the street-running section on Flower, which will be staying around for a while. If the capacity constraint is indeed on Flower, then getting rid of it would allow 20 tph on the Blue Line, which would allow for things like a separate express service and branches, such as one along the Randolph St ROW.
|
|
|
Post by erict on Sept 26, 2010 14:53:30 GMT -8
The headways will mean more crowded trains to and from Long Beach, no doubt about it. It is a problem that will have to be addressed at some point. The DTC will help, maybe pushing headways back down to 5 minutes? Seems to me that Flower will be one busy street in need of further grade-separation.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Sept 26, 2010 21:50:17 GMT -8
The key grade crossings on Flower Street will be: - 12th Street
- Pico
- Venice
- 18th Street
- Washington
Five minute headways per line per direction means a train crossing each intersection on average every 75 seconds. Can these crossings be permanently closed? Venice could maybe be closed. But not 18th Street (freeway off-ramp). 12th and Pico are needed because of heavy traffic during events. And Washington is a major boulevard. They might have to consider elevating the line over 12th and Pico Streets. Not sure if this is technically possible though.
|
|
|
Post by crzwdjk on Sept 26, 2010 23:47:47 GMT -8
The best thing to do would be to extend the tunnel along Flower to Washington, with the Expo Line emerging there (either north or south of the intersection) in a grade separated junction with the Blue Line, and the Blue Line continuing underground past the Grand station and the series of closely spaced cross streets between Grand and Los Angeles. That'll also speed both lines up just a bit and eliminate conflicts between southbound Blue and northbound Expo trains. But that's a project that's at least a decade or two out, and it doesn't make sense to even begin planning it until Expo and the DTC open and we get a good idea of how much demand there really is on the existing services on the Flower Street surface segment.
|
|